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Continental Pilots Say No Deal On Pay, Benefits  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3096 posts, RR: 10
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10714 times:

Continental pilots who have been in negotiations since July of 2007 have reached some agreements within their overall negotiations. However pay and benefits is not one of them. They feel they made concessions in 2005 to keep the airline out of bankruptcy. But now they feel that those decreases have been in existence long enough.

Personally I think it is too soon to expect what I will call reversals. If fuel goes up then what. It could sink the airline or mean cutting massive amounts of staff in all areas. I fully understand the pilots position -- don't get me wrong, but lets see how 2009 flies first and what a new administation intends to do.

What's your take?

Courtesy: Associated Press

Continental Pilots Say No Deal On Pay, Benefits

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081231/continental_airlines_pilots.html?.v=1

129 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5731 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10418 times:

Not to take sides, but your argument could be used forever. "What if fuel goes up?" Yeah, well, what if it does? Does that mean that pilots deserve less pay?

CO needs to get their management back on the ball (cough cough, bring Gordo back), and fast. I see turbulent times for this carrier with a colorful history.


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10316 times:

If I recall correctly, rising fuel prices were among the rising expenses cited to convince the pilots to give concessions. Fuel prices have come back down. I don't see why an agreement could not be indexed to future expenses. For example, once fuel costs rise to XX, both sides must come to the table and renegotiate. Management that is quick to ask for pay cuts should be equally quick to restore them.

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
but lets see how 2009 flies first and what a new administation intends to do.

I don't see what either of those have to do with a 2005 agreement. Obama will have little direct effect on Continental. There are plenty of forecasts to plan for 2009. Both of those are just excuses to set a rolling delay in motion for the restoration of what were supposed to be temporary cuts. Without knowing exactly what has occured at the negotiating table, I find it very hard to believe that the union would have rejected even a modest restoration proposal. I have in mind one that would occur over 4 years, with the last 2 being "catch up" years so at the end of the agreement the pilots are back to where they would have been.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 2):
now thats a funny statement!! Pilots and "less pay"??!!

How so? Adjusted for inflation, pilot pay has been in steady decline since the early 1980's.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10098 times:

I wonder what parts of the contract they HAVE reached agreement on. Scope? Bigger RJ's maybe?


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10020 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 3):
I don't see why an agreement could not be indexed to future expenses. For example, once fuel costs rise to XX, both sides must come to the table and renegotiate. Management that is quick to ask for pay cuts should be equally quick to restore them.

Pilot Unions are probably in the same ball park as the UAW. Completely ruthless and defying all levels of reason. I am absolutely sure that if your proposal is made it will be rejected by the union because pay increases are not set in stone. Unions also have the awful habit of nailing management's balls to the radiator at the worst economic times. It defies reason why that if the company doesn't offer them what they want they rather ruin the company and get laid off than seek employment at a place of their satisfaction in the first place. I have no doubt pensions and seniority schemes tend to cause these problems because it impedes mobility of the workforce.

For a collection of highly paid professionals they sure are stifling in a shop floor mentality.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineCALSKYGUY From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9990 times:

Yeah, Continental Pilot's and their union, ALPA, are totally ruthless and unreasonable. I suppose that's what they were in 2005 when they agreed to a concessionary contract to reduce the expenses of the company in a difficult economic climate. Thanks to those concessions from the pilot group, actually every employee group at Continental, their airline continues to remain strong and a viable player in the current economic climate. Continental has always strived for good labor relations, and for the most part they do. Because they all work towards the success of their airline. Thanks to their union, Continental provides pension benefits and retiree health care. Unlike other carriers that have gone bankrupt, and thrown their pension responsibility on the PBGC and the taxpayers. And health care onto medicare. Both parties in this negotiation seem to be acting responsibly and reasonably. Continental should start hedging fuel at these prices as insurance for future profits, instead of assuming they can always get it off the back of their employees.


calskyguy
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9957 times:

flybyguy,
not using CO as an example but didnt AA & UA mgmt take a nice bonus when the minions including the pilots took it in the shorts all in the name of high fuel???arpey and his possee and tilton took their respective carriers to the cleaners


"Unions also have the awful habit of nailing management's balls to the radiator at the worst economic times. It defies reason"



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9937 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 3):
If I recall correctly, rising fuel prices were among the rising expenses cited to convince the pilots to give concessions. Fuel prices have come back down. I don't see why an agreement could not be indexed to future expenses. For example, once fuel costs rise to XX, both sides must come to the table and renegotiate. Management that is quick to ask for pay cuts should be equally quick to restore them.

Recession. Revenues are sinking faster than the price of Jet-A. Indexing is very difficult to do in this environment as visibility going forward is quite low....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9730 times:

The last contract with pay/benefit cuts was very succesful; maybe we should cut more? (joking)

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 4):
Unions also have the awful habit of nailing management's balls to the radiator at the worst economic times

Don't you think every employee group would love to re-negotiate in good times? The contracts are for a set period and come due. You have to play the cards you are given.

The cost of living and such is always going up. But our paychecks keep going down. Do you see a problem with this type of scenario?

The cost of labor will go up, they've cut and cut and cut. There is nothing left to cut. Negotiations are continuing and this back and forth is expected.

The labor relations are better then some of the other carriers mentioned. The pilots are not the only group in negotiations, almost every employee group is.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7075 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9689 times:

This is not a flame post but in looking at the labour situation the world over, I would have to say that unions and their leadership are the most gullible person's on the face of this earth, were they really naive enough to believe that if they give management concessions in times of dire circumstances that management would voluntarily make up the difference when things get better? If the recoupment is not written in stone it is not going to happen, if it does, it will be at management discression, harsh reality.

Fuel prices go up, airlines institues fuel surcharges, fuel prices go down and airlines do what, milk the situation for months and only do something when they start hearing murmours of discontent. Management has only one creed, make as much money and pay out the least that they possibly can, do not expect any morality, the business of business is business.

Unions would be much better off giving concessions for a specified bonus payment sometime in the future, this would allow management adequate time to budget and prepare financial instruments in the same way that they do for their management recruitment, note that none of the large business houses whether airlines or financial have any difficulty recruiting top professionals with high paying salaries and perks, this is because these funds are set up specifically for such matters, union bonuses could also be done in the same way.


User currently offlineVs030 From Barbados, joined Sep 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9287 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 2):
pilot pay has been in steady decline since the early 1980's.

True.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 6):
didnt AA & UA mgmt take a nice bonus when the minions including the pilots took it in the shorts all in the name of high fuel???

Again, true.

While I agree that employees have their part to play when the airlines go through rough times, one needs to remember they have to survive in the same harsh economic climate as well, and there is only so much you can sacrifice. As mentioned, the saddest part is that when these sacrifices go on to benefit the airline, the employees usually don't get anything in return for their devotion. Another pay cut is probably the last thing they need right now.



Impossible Is Nothing
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3924 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9198 times:



Quoting CALSKYGUY (Reply 5):

I hope you're not implying that b/c the pilots took paycuts that they saved the company.



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9182 times:



Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 4):
Unions also have the awful habit of nailing management's balls to the radiator at the worst economic times.

Yeah, offering concessions when the airline was in trouble is really nailing management's balls to the radiator.  Yeah sure

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 4):
I have no doubt pensions and seniority schemes tend to cause these problems because it impedes mobility of the workforce.

Any other ideas to determine who gets what positions in the pilot group?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4384 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8861 times:

Well said CalSguy and Mir,

The reality is our Pilots have bent over backwards to help Cal through bad times, it is our turn, we are a first rate Airline, why should we have to settle for a second rate contract.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3924 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8783 times:



Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):

what constitutes a second rate contract?



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3383 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8664 times:



Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 4):
Pilot Unions are probably in the same ball park as the UAW. Completely ruthless and defying all levels of reason.

You must not have been paying attention to the UAW for the last few years... You could not be more off the mark.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineWj From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8267 times:



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 8):
Don't you think every employee group would love to re-negotiate in good times? The contracts are for a set period and come due. You have to play the cards you are given.

That is true, but the same goes for the unions. If their contract expires in a less than favorable time, they have to adjust their expectations accordingly and just because the THINK they desreve more, it makes it so. Its not that I dont think they deserve a raise, CO has always shown the ability to take care of its employees, even in tougher times, banking on a better future for the airline with hopefully happier employees. With that in mind, if a work group, any work group, in any airline, is offered any type of raise, they should be thankful they work for a company that is looking to put it together, because few and far between are able to.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3195 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8222 times:

From the UK side of the pond, is there desire among employees to get Gordon Bethune back in the company, or has he had his day and times have moved on. Just a thought.


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3402 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7776 times:



Quoting Wj (Reply 16):
CO has always shown the ability to take care of its employees, even in tougher times, banking on a better future for the airline with hopefully happier employees

I doubt you'd have any trouble finding plenty of employees to dispute that.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7622 times:



Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
The reality is our Pilots have bent over backwards to help Cal through bad times, it is our turn, we are a first rate Airline, why should we have to settle for a second rate contract.

"Bent over backwards" is relative. Maybe pilots were being overpaid in the first place.

The problems with unions is it doesn't allow as much "lateral movement" as say a cardiologist would be able to do.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7513 times:



Quoting NWAESC (Reply 15):
You must not have been paying attention to the UAW for the last few years... You could not be more off the mark.

The UAW's refusal to give up anything before 2011 was one of the main reasons the bailout failed in the US Senate. The issue was the UAW had already agreed to the changes starting in 2011 so their refusal to move that up 2 years (i.e. no sacrifice from the UAW) would have cost the GM shareholders their interest in GM and added thousands to the unemployment rolls if the White House had not stepped in. They now have until 31 March to agree to the changes now (not 2011) or GM is done.

Until the airline industry realizes that any ecomomic model that places to emphasis on costs rather than net revenue, the industry will be bouncing from one crises to another. An unfortunate by-product is almost all of the workers feel they are underpaid and picked-on during the non-good times (which is most of the time.)

The Union is telling CO to raise their fares to cover increased wages and benefit contributions and the company is telling the unions that they cannot do that and stay competitive. (Management pay isn't the issue as it is such a small part in the overall scheme of things.)


User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3924 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7460 times:



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 20):
Management pay isn't the issue

that's the truth...........no pay raise since '00-'01



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 523 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7452 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
"Bent over backwards" is relative. Maybe pilots were being overpaid in the first place.

Sure, just like all union employees are  Yeah sure

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 20):
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 15):
You must not have been paying attention to the UAW for the last few years... You could not be more off the mark.

The UAW's refusal to give up anything before 2011 was one of the main reasons the bailout failed in the US Senate. The issue was the UAW had already agreed to the changes starting in 2011 so their refusal to move that up 2 years (i.e. no sacrifice from the UAW) would have cost the GM shareholders their interest in GM and added thousands to the unemployment rolls if the White House had not stepped in. They now have until 31 March to agree to the changes now (not 2011) or GM is done.

SO your saying the UAW hasn't given up anything over the years? I don't think the UAW is the reason for the problems that the big three are in.

CO and the union are going to work things out in the end, it's all a part of negotiating.


User currently offlineJetjeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1430 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7339 times:

Expressjet just renegotiated their pilots contract but i dont think they were to happy with it.
Im all in favor of merit and pay increases with the cost of living,but we have one big monster on this countries back right now.Over a million out of work, I saw just in one state (Arkansas) there are 20,000 homeless and 4300 children. Maybe they should wait a year to see how this obamas administrations going to do and how the economy is at that time.

In desperate times scabs will come out of the woodwork to Eat. Cal just might find it cheaper
to find any of the thousands of displaced pilots or rj flyers who have been waiting with baited breath to move to a mainline carrier. I cant think of a worse time since 1929 to be hunting for a job.Every employee at Federal Express thats salaried took a 20 percent paycut. I can tell ya 600 bucks short does hurt but not as bad as no salary..

If I flew for Cal I would set this year out and be thankful for what they have in these times before i would walk a line. Cal is a great airline so hang tight



i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7241 times:

Do CAL pilots still need to wait 6 months for health benefits?

25 Gsosbee : The UAW and GM are equally responsible. The UAW with its work rules and pay for no work are killers when attempting to be competitive with non-union
26 Jacobin777 : That's not what I said. I don't know which unions are overpaid and which aren't...but it seems the aviation market believes most union pilots are ove
27 Max Q : No, we have never been 'overpaid' ! Continental Pilots have always lagged the industry in pay and benefits. A first rate contract is one that leads th
28 Max Q : Yes, Cal PIlots do have to wait 6 months for health benefits, which is a disgrace.
29 CALMSP : which it should be for all work groups. I would also like to cut back on the part timers healt insurance. There are to many part-timers who sign up t
30 Asuflyer05 : Why should it be that way for all work groups?
31 CALMSP : why single out one group?
32 Jacobin777 : That's relative as well...it seems ostensibly your peers on other air carriers have been overpaid as well. If that's the attitude which you and your
33 Max Q : You may not like it but we will prevail, There is no reason why we cannot be paid a leading wage for the job we do. This is simply a matter of budgeti
34 Post contains links Jacobin777 : You're entitled to your opinion..no matter how misguided it may be. Sure there is...you don't work in a vacuum do you? Why should you get paid for a
35 KAUSpilot : Overpaid/Underpaid is a meaningless term, you will be paid what you can negotiate, and it's all about leverage. CAL pilots have a lot of leverage righ
36 Jacobin777 : Of course it is.....at this point in the economy however, higher pay and benefits probably isn't going to happen. Have proof of that?
37 KAUSpilot : It's a known fact that CO management has approached ALPA about relaxing scope to allow CAL's regional affiliates to fly up to 70 or 90 seat jets. CAL
38 Asuflyer05 : I really hope they don't give up their scope clause in exchange for wage and benefit increases.
39 Max Q : You are correct, we have plenty of leverage to use. As I said, you may not like it, but we will obtain an industry leading contract and, deservedly so
40 KAUSpilot : Likewise, ideally I'd like to see any potential 70 or 90 seat aircraft simply flown by CAL pilots for the currently agreed upon short-narrowbody payr
41 Jacobin777 : Again, there is a reason why fuel costs have gone down. I think my quote above (and I'll re-quote it below) is not ambiguous. It goes to show how muc
42 KAUSpilot : " target=_blank>http://www.iata.org Sure, that's IATA talking about the global industry. Airlines outside of the US did not experience the post 9-11
43 Jacobin777 : As an aggregate, according to the the IATA, U.S. carriers will possibly be profitable in 2009, with a profit margin of 1%..if that IMHO...don't forge
44 Max Q : Well JB7 I have worked as a Pilot in the Airline industry for a long time, Continental for over 21 years. There are things about this business that yo
45 KAUSpilot : Sure, but we're talking about CAL, not "US carriers". I will go out on a limb and say CAL is in relatively good financial health and could sustain a
46 Buddys747 : Are you saying CO specific or in general? I certainly don't see corporate America hurting in the wages and benefits department. The sluggish economy
47 Socalfive : "Adjusted for inflation", EVERYONE'S pay has been in steady decline since the early 80's. Bet you think you're making money on your house you've owne
48 KarlB737 : Absolutely not. All I believe is that now that fuel is cheap to rush in an hour after low prices have hit and ask for an increase may a bit too soon.
49 Jacobin777 : Maybe that's what the "problem" is Max Q...oversimplification of a complex situation. WN has a so-called "good relationship" with management yet had
50 GSPSPOT : Hello out there..... Does anyone remember a time called the "Late '70's"? Double-digit unemployment rate, double-digit inflation rates, double-digit
51 MaverickM11 : Who exactly is going to pay for those "few dollars a ticket"?
52 Boeing12345 : Salaried employees have to wait 6 months too. What work groups have health benefits prior to 6 months?
53 KAUSpilot : US, DL, NW, UA, are four of CAL's biggest competitors and all those workers had their labor contracts ravaged by bankruptcy. That is true, I assure y
54 EMB170 : I don't mean to sound like a gloomy gus, but we've already seen the result of CO not being able to bring in jets between the ERJ and 735 on property.
55 Gsosbee : What do you think happened when CO went through BK twice?
56 KAUSpilot : The DH4 is not the same as an E190 or CRJ900....it's only really in it's niche for flights less than 500NM, beyond that the increased stage lengths s
57 Gsosbee : Unfortunately due to the economy not much will be gained. Nothing that has to be approved by the Senate will come to a vote as the Republicans will f
58 KAUSpilot : In the airline industry, unions aren't doing what you say. The EU and many Asian carriers have better pay and benefits than teir US counterparts! The
59 EWRCabincrew : That is the bottom line. Pilots shoot for the moon, the company want to do the opposite and in between is the middle ground that gets the contract pa
60 Gsosbee : No problem with that. The issues start when one side makes a stupid demand and then digs in the long haul. That is when things turn ugly [and no one
61 ADXMatt : I don't know about the pilots but in my work group we are the lowest paid of the majors. Why do so many on this board feel that we can't get a raise u
62 Post contains links Jacobin777 : 1- 2-That what part of the purpose of going through BK was in the first place..to get costs in-line with revenues... ..and sans a few such large carr
63 Toxtethogrady : Whoever is in charge of fuel hedging at the airline needs to be sacked for incompetence. As fuel went up they failed to lock in lower prices early, t
64 Toxtethogrady : Members of the Assistant Executive Senior Vice Presidents' Union might be overpaid. Union spokesperson Robert Nardelli has denied this and stated tha
65 MasseyBrown : Because it's very hard to make money with the 50-seaters, although less hard than it was 6 months ago. If I were a union negotiator in today's econom
66 Falcon84 : Gordo isn't coming back, so you can stop right there with that. CO's management has done a very good job in keeping the airline economically viable.
67 CALMSP : yeah, big deal............5000 pilots took paycuts...........how many agents took paycuts?? 15K?? Maybe even more!! As did the thousands of managemen
68 ADXMatt : The most recent increases did NOT go to everyone. It went to the hourly employees. Unionized workers who are in contract negotiations did not get thi
69 Alias1024 : The two regionals I've worked at have both started health benefits after 90 days. That extra 3 months can be a huge hit financially for people with f
70 Falcon84 : As I said, most companies require employees get through a probationary period before most benefits kick in. That's just common sense. It doesn't make
71 Alias1024 : You don't think that the extra three months of paying 100% of healthcare costs doesn't matter to prospective employees? That's a considerable amount
72 KAUSpilot : It is quite naive to think that other employee groups will negotiate with the interests of rampers and gate agents as a priority. Perhaps if you had
73 Falcon84 : That isn't the point. The point is the company has to keep all the groups in mind, not just one over the other. That's their job. They know each grou
74 KAUSpilot : I think that a lot of childish crap goes on in the business world, fairness is a foreign concept and that's just the way the world works.
75 Falcon84 : Probably true, but often it is said that first impressions are the most important, and, for me, the first impression I got of the airline unions were
76 Max Q : A lot of standard A.net anti pilot rhetoric here ! You may not like it but we will be rewarded appropriately this time. Falcon84, if you don't like it
77 Falcon84 : As you should be. We all should be. But that doesn't mean you get a contract that will kill the company financially, simply to teach the company a le
78 Gsosbee : Get the difference (or all of it) from the union. If the union says they don't have the funds, ask the union for an accounting for all dues received.
79 MaverickM11 : Join a union and you'll eventually price yourself out of existence. You can bet on it.
80 OA412 : Have your benefits remained constant or have there been increases/decreases? I received a 2.5% raise last year and will receive another raise at the
81 NWAESC : ...And the management of the Big 3's myopia is what landed them in front of Congress in the first place. The UAW has been trying to get them to chang
82 Alias1024 : How does that fix anything? Instead of giving your extra cash directly to the insurance company, you send it through an intermediary in the form of i
83 Jacobin777 : Eventually there is an equilibrium between pay and the available labour pool and it seems as if it hasn't approached there yet.
84 Falcon84 : Sadly, along with a lot of corprate incompetence in many industries, that is true. Unions have been instrumental in helping all American workers to g
85 Max Q : Standard A. net anti union rhetoric here, those of you that ride in the back on a regular basis should be thankful for the safety benefits your Pilot
86 GSPSPOT : Dear God, help us all. There was a time when as long as you had a full-time job - just about ANY job - you could support yourself, and maybe a partne
87 CALMSP : yes there was a time. But that time was before HBO/Cinemax/IPHONES/IPODS/Neiman Marcus CC's!!!
88 MaverickM11 : The TSA agents say the same thing...and they want to be unionized too.
89 Max Q : A TSA agent will not be landing you on a wet runway in a thirty knot crosswind, or returning you safely to terra firma after an engine failure. I can
90 PVG : They go up for everyone, it's management's responsibility to make sure that their hedging programs mitigate the risk. Rather than tying compensation
91 Jacobin777 : -The safety benefits also benefit the pilots as well so its rather a moot point.
92 Max Q : Er, it's not a moot point at all, I worked for two different Airlines without the benefit of a union contract and can tell you with absolute certainty
93 MaverickM11 : A pilot won't confiscate box cutters (or not) from a terrorist...we could play this game all day long. It's a bit silly.
94 Jacobin777 : Maybe you can explain to us how "management's decisions" are going to get past the FAA rules and regulations, etc.? Not to mention, the vast majority
95 Buddys747 : Gee, 10.5 million of us are going to loose our jobs now What, fighting for good wages , benefits and a job is out of touch with reality? It's sad peo
96 MaverickM11 : Where is that flight engineer these days?
97 Windy95 : You can not ride a dead horse. There has to be a balance Is it a disgrace that only CAL pilots have to wait or that all union employees have to wait
98 KAUSpilot : Luckily US airlne pilot jobs cannot be outsourced to foreigners, although John McCain would have done his best to change that had he been elected. In
99 Windy95 : Unfortunately Maintenance can be. Like with CALS heavy checks being done in Hong Kong.
100 Jacobin777 : ..read below.. ...Now if we can only agree on the other board (non-AV)..
101 Buddys747 : And that changed because of unions
102 ADXMatt : I wasn't talking about the last 2 Julys. They were in the contract. Our contract expired on 12/31/08 The airport workers got a raise on Jan 1st and s
103 Max Q : Ok, most bus drivers cannot land your average jet so thats just a little irrelevant ! Continental Pilots are on probation for a year after being hired
104 KAUSpilot : It's not really that difficult to understand if you study human nature.....people want to see anyone percieved as successful or powerful taken down,
105 MaverickM11 : I don't think you'd get a lot of sympathy from the general populace, particularly in today's economic environment. There isn't a mainline pilot at an
106 KAUSpilot : I'm certainly not looking for sympathy, as it's irrelevant to what I make. Like I said earlier the negotations are all that matter. Besides, it's hum
107 MaverickM11 : How do you figure?
108 Star_world : Have you ever heard the expression "winning the battle, but losing the war"? As a major contributor towards the salaries of you and your co-workers,
109 KAUSpilot : You typically show up to work around 7-11 AM on day 1 for a four day trip, fly the rest of that day, two more complete days, and are realeased on day
110 Max Q : I assure you, the prevailing attitude amongst most Continental Pilots is that we HAVE 'lost the war' for many many years while mangement laughs all th
111 UAXDXer : Of all the things I've read on A.Net that has to be the most arrogant statement I have read on this site. Pleas define "Us"!
112 GSPSPOT : What's wrong with demanding to be paid what you're worth? As I'm sure has been posted before here, how much $$ is being able to get an a/c (and its p
113 MaverickM11 : This coming from a union member???? I think we've just entered a parallel universe. I think you're being a bit liberal with what you define as "worki
114 Star_world : This is where the pro-union group loses touch with reality. What you are "worth" is not defined in a bubble. It's defined by the market. The airline'
115 CALMSP : How is management laughing all the way to the bank?? of course everyone is worth every penny. You are no different than anyone else in the company. I
116 GSPSPOT : No, the pay should MATCH the specialized training/responsibilities that already exist.. Pilots aren't just plane drivers - they have to be experts at
117 CALMSP : what are we really looking at here? What improvements/increases is the pilot group looking to get on the new contract?
118 Max Q : To name a few, US Airline leading salary and benefits, reinstatement of now non existing retirement benefits, immediate health insurance for Pilots th
119 KAUSpilot : How is it absurd to count "duty time" as time at work? I'm certainly not enjoying a leisurly day during my time between flights. I'm updating my manu
120 CALMSP : are you counting the hours you are not at the airport??
121 Buddys747 : Max Q, union members are in the minority not just here, but every where in this country. You see the posts on here about unions, Obama, etc. You see i
122 Max Q : Thanks Buddys747 for the enlightened, realistic and kind comments. All the best, Max
123 Breaker1011 : The massive declines in fuel cost have unfortunately come with massive declines in traffic, especially premium, as well. Don't hold your breath for a
124 Osiris30 : What I don't understand is why can't both sides simply work together for their mutual benefit. The goals of organized labor and corporations *needn't*
125 KAUSpilot : Thanks for that, I think we all benefit by taking emotion out of the situation and just look at the facts. Unfortunately, I, myself, am not immune fr
126 Max Q : You have some good points Osiris30, but if you hang around Pilots for a while you will soon realise they don't agree on much. For that reason a Nation
127 Jhooper : There's just no fair way to implement a NSL. Besides, even if there was, it'd be self defeating because why would an airline hire a very senior pilot
128 Alias1024 : As much as pilots dream about a national seniority list, the issues of crafting and implementing one are just insurmountable. That ship has sailed.
129 Max Q : Well said, you are absolutely correct.
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