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Northwest Boeing 787 Order, Re-negotiate?  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19490 times:

Ed Bastian, Delta president and CEO of Northwest:

"I'd really be reluctant to make any comment as far as our future on that aircraft until we know what we're dealing with"

It seems they think the combi A330 / 777 / 747 is enough.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081228/BUSINESS05/812280355

Delta remains a top Boeing customer, but has CEO that is considered an old friend in Toulouse too. It seems Boeing has few options then to renegotiate the deal and hope NWA will keep the door open for later deliveries, to avoid a more damaging outright cancellation.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00008444.jpg

I have the impression Delta has become tougher / more pragmatic since merging with NWA..

92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2091 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19452 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I have the impression Delta has become tougher / more pragmatic since merging with NWA..

Indeed; and a tough negotiator as well. The 787-900 will probably hold more appeal to DL and allow Boeing to work out the problems and weight issues with the -800's. DL is in no rush to take delivery of an aircraft that might not live up to performance expectations at this time. There's no shame in possibly waiting longer to get a better product.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19389 times:

There was a rumour last week about DL ordering another ten A330s. Unwelcome news to some but I think I'd rather build up my A330 fleet right now than put too many eggs into the 787 basket. There's no doubt (I assume) that the 787 will come good in the end but the early 788s will be very late and seem likely to underperform. Set that against the known performance of the A330 and the argument may swing quite strongly in favour of Airbus.

We'll see.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 19343 times:

While the article may be new, the news itself is old.

It is no secret, and search activity would show, that this topic has been discussed here before. It has also been stated that Delta is really more interested in the 787-9 model than the 787-8 which NWA, Inc. had on order.

The 787 will fly in Delta's colors. The question is when exactly, and what model.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19205 times:

Lets not forget the large TATL 767-300ER fkeet is up for upgrade. 8 Abreast economy Thompson seating, new Business class and AP winglets. If they reduce # Business Elite (likely) they can probably put in more seats. Some other tweaks and CASM should be better.

User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19186 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 3):
The 787 will fly in Delta's colors. The question is when exactly, and what model.

Are you sure? Because I smell an A350.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19173 times:

Change the 787 order into one for the 747-8I.......unlikely but you can hope though  Smile


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3591 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19155 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Lets not forget the large TATL 767-300ER fkeet is up for upgrade. 8 Abreast economy Thompson seating, new Business class and AP winglets. If they reduce # Business Elite (likely) they can probably put in more seats. Some other tweaks and CASM should be better.

DL's focus has been primarily on raising RASM to an above industry average, often by reducing seat availability (especially in Y). I don't know why DL would now reverse course and start decreasing the J class size while increasing the number of low yielding Y seats, which wile decreasing CASM, would also depress RASM. Doesn't sound like a rational business model to me, especially with demand falling in all cabins.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19150 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 6):
Change the 787 order into one for the 747-8I.......unlikely but you can hope though

Why would you want to change to a 747-8? What would you gain by switching to this paper aircraft?

[quote=PM,reply=2]There was a rumour last week about DL ordering another ten A330s.

Yes there was a rumor based on zero facts. There was also a rumor a few weeks ago about a "big" announcement in CVG. Never happened.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7140 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19082 times:

Hows does the logic work for purchasing additional A330 a/c when the A350 and the B787 are around the corner? It is touted that the B777 and B747 are being made obsolote by the A380 and the upcoming A350, does this logic not also apply to the A330 and B767 with the coming B787 and A350? Carriers who purchase these older a/c will be at an economic disadvantage when the newer a/c come online, and their competitors with more efficient a/c will be able to set prices and control the market segment, at least this is the trend of thought on the numerous A380 threads, does the principle not apply?

Just a question / thought.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18953 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
Why would you want to change to a 747-8? What would you gain by switching to this paper aircraft?

First I want to see another 747-8I customer and second I hope DL will replace their 747s with 747-8Is rather than with 77Ws.
DL/NW has some of the oldest 747s in their fleet and I guess they are due to replacement in 5-10 years. If they currently see no need for the 787 because of their huge 767/777/A330 fleet it might make sense switching to a 747 replacement. They could also order 77W instead but I am keeping my fingers crossed for the 747-8I even if chances are slim  Smile



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18888 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
I don't know why DL would now reverse course and start decreasing the J class size while increasing the number of low yielding Y seats, which wile decreasing CASM, would also depress RASM. Doesn't sound like a rational business model to me, especially with demand falling in all cabins.

Because the travle budgets are the first to take a hit when companies start reducing costs. Business tickets become economy tickets. 32 Economy seats become a better use of space then 12 business class seats. Happens all the time. A new wind is blowing at Delta.

NWA strategy : reduce costs until passenger nearly run away, invest in what is really important (punctuality, connections, luggage), fill up the aircraft as much as possible (load factor >85%) and fly the hell out of your aircraft is gaining influence IMO.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18866 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
Hows does the logic work for purchasing additional A330 a/c when the A350 and the B787 are around the corner?

"Around the corner" is a tad optimistic. It'll be many a long year before 787s and A350s are flying in such numbers as to eclipse the current generation of planes. Ask yourself why so many airlines are queuing up to add A330s. Airbus have sold 500 A330s in the past three years. These airlines don't believe they are buying planes which will imminently be rendered obsolete.


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18827 times:

If Delta delays or cancels their 787 maybe Continental will be the first US Carrier to get them? Maybe CO's will move up the delivery times?

User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18826 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
while increasing the number of low yielding Y seats,

You mean lower yeilding.......as in relative to J. Very different thing indeed as many Y seats most certainly aren't 'low-yielding'.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8340 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18757 times:
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Delta is getting 777LR's and waiting for 744 replacements. Highly doubt Delta will take early 787-8's, 787-9 would be better timed for 767ER retirements. Delta needs expansion planes for Asia, Ausralia and Persian Gulf countries, 777LR are the what DL needs more of. It takes 2 -3 777LR's to operate the type of routes DL wants to fly, so it will need 20 777LR's.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18723 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 15):
Delta is getting 777LR's and waiting for 744 replacements

Yes, Delta is getting a few 777LR's but exactly what 747 replacement are they waiting for?


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18663 times:



Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
Are you sure? Because I smell an A350.

Are you kidding? Do you actually think it will be flying before the 787-9? Has Airbus even finalized the design on the A350, yet?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18657 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):
Yes, Delta is getting a few 777LR's but exactly what 747 replacement are they waiting for?

Boeing 747-8i or 777-300ER of course. For godsake don't mention the 80 thing.  Wink


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18645 times:

I suspect this says something about the extent to which early 788's as scheduled for delivery to NW will miss their original performance specification.

Delta wants the originally promised payload / range for its long haul routes and may be reluctant to accept these "below-standard" planes. NW did not order 788s to replace TATL 767s!


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18620 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 19):
I suspect this says something about the extent to which early 788's as scheduled for delivery to NW will miss their original performance specification.

Delta wants the originally promised payload / range for its long haul routes and may be reluctant to accept these "below-standard" planes. NW did not order 788s to replace TATL 767s!

  


Delta already went thru that with the MD-11's. I suspect they wouldn't want to, again. The MD-11's might still be in the fleet, today, if they had met their performance expectations.

[Edited 2009-01-01 07:23:46]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18565 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):
Yes, Delta is getting a few 777LR's but exactly what 747 replacement are they waiting for?

Good question. Reading between the financial presentation lines, I am guessing that inside the room some (mostly ex-NWA) are pushing for 748's or A330's while the majority (DL) are pushing for more T7's. The A330/T7 offers the best fleet flexibility which is the discrimator in the discussion. Anderson might prefer the A330, but Boeing stepped in big time when Delta needed them to during the BK process, so the next batch will probably be Boeing products. (Of course if Boeing doesn't do their homework and tries to force an airplane on Delta, Delta has an equal option they can switch to.) I have been in similar situations and it is good to see the DL side listening to the NWA arguments. If Delta was going to run rough-shod over NW, the decision would have already been announced.

The plus for the 74 is the belly cargo capacity. The minus is Air France down guaging to the T7 from the 744. [Delta is close to AF and undoubtily is reviewing AF's thought process (which included the AF A380). The A380 offers no flexibility in the Delta sense, so the AF decision to do away with the 74's has to be adjusted to Delta thinking.] A lot of moving parts including the Pacific cargo possibilities.


User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18499 times:

Delta has already made it known a few times now that an all Boeing fleet is less likely a workable strategy for the combined DL/NW airline. DL will have the 77W as their largest airplane. I think we can expect some new A330 orders, when would be the question. Perhaps some eof those A332HGW's that Airbus recently announced they'd be making as an alternative to early 787's..

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30901 posts, RR: 87
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18413 times:
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Well Boeing certainly loses nothing by DL deferring - that gives them two planes (ZA003 and ZA004) already built that can immediately be re-assigned to other customers.

And even if DL cancels then, as PM noted, it's not like DL is suddenly going to start taking A350s in 2013 - or 2023, for that matter, likely. If they're buying A330s and 777s now, it likely because they don't feel the wait for 787s or A350s is an effective use of their money at this time. Both models are still excellent performers and they have experience operating both types, so new frames can be put into revenue service immediately.


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18355 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):

NWA strategy : reduce costs until passenger nearly run away, invest in what is really important (punctuality, connections, luggage), fill up the aircraft as much as possible (load factor >85%) and fly the hell out of your aircraft is gaining influence IMO.

It must have worked too. NW stock was worth more consistantly, they had more money when the merger was singed and they made money here and there too, or didnt loose as much. I am glad someone sees the true value of NW and what they bring to the table, how to run an airline.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 21):
but Boeing stepped in big time when Delta needed them to during the BK process

So did the tax payers of Minnesota for Northwest. DL has no allegiance to anyone, business is business.



Long Live Memphis!
25 Revelation : DL is in a good position, since Boeing has some liability due to the missed delivery dates and presumably missed performance targets. On the other ha
26 Gsosbee : Why do you think Delta left significant operations in Minnesota?
27 Ken777 : Well. DL did have a "special relationship" with Boeing, as does AA. I would believe that special pricing for the exclusive supplier position continue
28 Post contains links and images IAD787 : http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...ill-northwests-787s-be-born-d.html I know Boeing wouldn't complain one bit if Delta opted to dump its 787-8 or
29 DL767captain : I don't see the "New Delta" canceling the 787 outright. That would be a very stupid move when they have some rather early delivery slots. What would m
30 SNCntry32 : I wont get into it, but yes, they are leaving a big operation in Minnesota, I am ecstatic about that. The tax payers didnt get totally shafted, but i
31 Alitalia744 : Delta will continue to choose the aircraft that best suits their FlightPlan goals. Right now the 77L is the darling of Delta's revenue and marketing d
32 Tdscanuck : Which problems are those? The -800 is the best selling of all the 737NG series (by a factor of about 2 over 2nd place, the -700). How is it a paper a
33 Kaitak : While I agree that the 787 will have a place in the future fleet of DL, I think that Airbus is in a good position to place more A330s with them; we do
34 Mayor : I believe we're talking about the 787, not the 737.
35 Stitch : Then folks should use the proper nomenclature. It is the 787-8 and 787-9, not the 787-800 and 787-900.
36 Post contains images Keesje : The operations guys probably. The Marketing & Sales department can at this moment totally do without their hard fought US launch customer, biggest ai
37 PlanesNTrains : Perhaps, but tides change. Right now, Delta is in the driver's seat relative to the 787. But that's now. Who's to say in a year or two where things w
38 AirNZ : What 'inferior' product? Considering it hasn't even flown, nothing is inferior to the 787.
39 Keesje : Yes, who is to say.. to the left Yes. Delta has nearly 100x 767-300s/ERs and 400ER contrary to the 2x 777-200LRs and 8x 777-200ER everyone seems to t
40 Alitalia744 : Keesje, Mark my and other words. The 777 fleet is being built upon. The airplane is loved, wanted, and needed within Delta right now. -G
41 PlanesNTrains : Ok, if that doesn't make sense, how about "There is a long list of customers ahead of them, and the wait will likely be substantially longer than it
42 Gsosbee : ... and the A350 will be flying when? And when it is delivered it will on time and on weight? The A350/787 battle will be interesting since the more
43 DLPMMM : Nope, I meant what I said. Any incremental Y class seats above the current number would undoubtedly end up being additional deeply discounted Y seats
44 Post contains links and images Keesje : I think Airbus sold 500 A330s and 500 A350s during the last three years. They learned a lot and have succesfully introduced a huge all new airliner.
45 DeltaMD90 : I highly doubt it, since both NW and DL seemed more interested in the 787 than the A350, and I doubt that they merging will change that.
46 DLPMMM : Except that the economy class seats for the marginal traveler (Joe Once-a-year-six-pack and family) disappear as travelers on their deeply discounted
47 Revelation : I'm saying DL will have an inferior product to AA if DL should cancel their commitment to the 787 and stick with 767/A330. Clearly this refers to som
48 Flighty : Yeah.. Delta's interest is taking new build 777s. If they are taking new 777s for a 25 year career, then they will not be needing A350s. Delta's amaz
49 FlyABR : are any of dl's 767s getting to the point where they need to be replaced? my train of thought is could delta order more new build 767s if they can be
50 Gsosbee : We don't know what they learned on the A350 because they are still designing the airplane, but no doubt they will be ok as the technology risk is low
51 DeltaL1011man : 30+ is the goal. (Pre-NWA) now with NW it will likely be a larger number because its very like they will replace the 744s with 77Ws at some point in
52 Keesje : In reality the A350 XWB will be more modern, about 5 yrs. Both airframers share the same suppliers. GE, RR, Goodrich, Thales, Honeywell, MHI, Smiths,
53 Brilondon : Are you sure that is the smell you can smell? I think that DL would be willing to deal with Boeing about the NW 787 and parlay that into some favorab
54 Jacobin777 : Actually the aux fuel tanks would decrease payload... Carriers have been purchasing the current A380's which is 5 tons overweight, yet I don't see an
55 Aloha717200 : My theory is that because of the A330 fleet which I expect will continue to grow, Airbus is going to cut them a deal on the A350 airframe. It'd be a
56 Bjwonline : We must not also forget the higher cost of obtaining these new aircraft. The airlines have ordered them will certainly have a newer and better produc
57 Mayor : The latest fleet list on Delta.com shows that they have 6 options on the 767-300ER and 12 options on the 767-400ER. The same list shows the 77L as 8
58 Post contains links Jambrain : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...330a340-production-rate-rises.html I think you will see Airbus deliver more like 120 frames in 2011 so make th
59 Columba : Well NW refused the "old" A350 not XWB. Maybe they like what they see now with the A350 and they would not be the only one operating A350s and 787s s
60 DeltaL1011man : Mayor your right i did forget about the last 2 ordered. Thanks for pointing that out.
61 DELTA7478 : I really hope that DL takes at least 5 747-800 to replace the 747-400.
62 Flashmeister : Out of the question, in my view. First, DL is ga-ga over 777. Remember, too, that NW didn't dislike 777, but they chose A330 for their markets. They
63 DeltaL1011man : I agree NW need something that could replace the D10 on the TATL routes. The 777 was to much plane. IMHO they should have looked at it very hard for
64 MotorHussy : Agreed. And NW is ga-ga over the A330. So pretty soon the new airline will be pretty ga-ga over their Triple-Seven and A330 combo as is KLM (and othe
65 PM : And it's a long list... Emirates, Qatar, Asiana, EVA, Etihad, Korean, Malaysia, Air France, Egyptair, Cathay Pacific, Thai, Air China, Jet Airways, T
66 Jambrain : Has that anything to do with the fact it's the most capable aircraft of it's size currently availiable? Is in not possible that if A350-9 proves it's
67 Jfk777 : One of NW's positive assets are the A330's.
68 Columba : Don´t forget the huge fleet of paid for Diesel 9s......
69 Revelation : Thanks for the info. I was using numbers from the past, you are using numbers that project the future. It does seem hard to take the last best year (
70 PM : I apologise if I didn't express myself clearly. By "here" I meant on A.Net rather than this thread, In that context the craving by some to see all Ai
71 Bobnwa : You are right. We even have one member who has stated he hates Airbus and any carrier that owns them,so much that he will never fly any carrier that
72 Mayor : What the DL/Airbus haters don't realize is that if the A310 "experiment" in the 90's had worked out for the best, we might have had Airbus products lo
73 AirNZ : On what basis, or personal knowledge, are you making such a definitive statement?
74 Mayor : He is hopeful, but not factual.
75 DocLightning : Does it smell a lot like flowers? I don't smell it. They have 777's. They don't need a replacement just now. The 767's need to be replaced. They will
76 Bmacleod : The 787s will be delivered but in a DL livery not NW as a result of the merger. There will likely be a delay of 2 years but not much beyond that. In t
77 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : AA doesn't have AB or they wont after next year............jeesh bob if your going to try to talk about me at lease get your facts right. You going t
78 Post contains links Keesje : " target=_blank>http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/a...4.asp Well this quote of Anderson should put you a little out of balance. Its two weeks after
79 Bobnwa : Yes, AA does have Airbus aircraft and has for years. We are talking about airlines currently being hated by a member of this board.. How is that for
80 DeltaL1011man : hmmm...........that sounds ALOT like how I feel about you. I never I hate the airlines I said I wont fly them. Don't put words in my mouth. .........
81 AirNZ : Perhaps you need to look again, because what you quote above has nothing whatever to do with the question irrespective of what you think you need to
82 DeltaL1011man : The A300s should be gone by 2010. If its not 2010 its 2011 and that is the on AB they have in the fleet unless I missed something. don't worry about
83 DeltaL1011man : I was wrong here...........they all should be gone by Nov. 2009.
84 Bobnwa : This is a quote of yours in the tread "DL New Intl routes with 77L" " All the talks of how great DL will be is making me HATE it more and more every
85 MotorHussy : Yes you were. And, reading through things, it appears that this was not an isolated case. Perhaps you should be more circumspect with your posts and
86 CX747 : Yet again, a post to stir the pot. A post with potential negative implications towards the 787. A post with potentially positive implications for the
87 Hjulicher : I think to better understand the reasoning as to why NW initially ordered the 787, you have to analyze NW as the stand alone carrier they were. NW was
88 DeltaL1011man : I was off three months and I wasn't really wrong. I said they will be gone by 2010 or 2011............all gone by nov. 09 looks to me like I was inde
89 PGNCS : I don't think that you have any concrete evidence the 787 is more advanced, although it is more unconventional than current aircraft: that certainly
90 DeltaL1011man : Didn't say that, But DL might be able to "trade" the 787 slots for more 777 slots. Right now DL has 27 options plus 8 orders. They may get 15ish 777s
91 AirNZ : LOL!!!! So are you saying that's what you really meant? Okay, and duly noted by everyone.........but said only after you've been asked on several occ
92 Srbmod : Since this thread has degraded to an Airbus v. Boeing flamefest and some users are choosing to insult and debate other users instead of the topic, thi
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