Iowaman From United States, joined May 2004, 3486 posts, RR: 8 Posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 30887 times:
Yesterday afternoon while flying in a 150 with my mother, I encountered an engine seize up and was unable to restart at approximately 800-1000 ft AGL. Luckily I was able to clear good sized power lines, trees, a creek with 50 ft embankment, and make it into tall grass and several inches of snow near a field. Pics explain a lot of it:
Went to add throttle from around 2/3's to 3/4's which engine completely seized. Run up and preflight were normal, and the plane had an annual just 3 tac hours before the crash. Had been flying for approximately 20 minutes with no problems or indication of trouble. No fluids can be seen streaking down the side of the aircraft, and there was plenty of fuel (checked both tanks + fuel strain in engine compartment during preflight for water as well). Will be interesting to see what caused a complete seize. Had a conference call with the NTSB as well as DSM FSDO last night, and am expecting to here from them again tomorrow.
Flight152 From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3138 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 30795 times:
Good to hear you are both fine! Certainly something we hope never happens, and it looks like you made the best of the situation and found a good place to put it down. What was the approach/touchdown like? What has the FSDO/NTSB done or said to you? Interested for sure what they do when these things happen.
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today
Iowaman From United States, joined May 2004, 3486 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 30740 times:
Quoting N6238P (Reply 1): Could this be an issue of carburetor ice? Cold air and low RPM's would seem to do the trick.
Being 12 degrees and dry air it isn't prime for carb ice, but possible.
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 2): Out of interest did you check the oil level?
Not after the crash no. The access panel is smashed in towards the cabin and I figured it'd be best for the NTSB to pry it open. During preflight however the oil level was right where it should be, along with pressure during run up.
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 2): And were you using carbie heat?
At the time no, however approximately ten minutes prior yes.
Quoting QB737 (Reply 4): One question; will your mother fly with you again?
I can't seem to get an answer out of her .
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 5): What was the approach/touchdown like?
Approach was alright, saw a break between the taller trees and headed for the field. Airspeed got low because I was keeping the nose up due to the obstacles, so impact was pretty hard. I estimate I was doing 40-45 during impact, however I'm not sure of exact airspeed. The crash was hard enough to set the ELT off though, and I suspect it may have happened during impact. 150's drop like a brick with two passengers and 3/4's fuel.
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 5): What has the FSDO/NTSB done or said to you?
I was actually complemented by both for preventing any injuries as well as property damage.
Banjo76 From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 30693 times:
I'm no pilot and know nothing about flying planes, but that has to be scary...
Congrats to you staying cold while in emergency and being able to land the plane safely.
727forever From United States, joined Jan 2006, 624 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 30615 times:
Nice job getting the airplane down and stopped safely. Good news is I think this one can be repaired to fly another day. Question, did the engine actually seize, meaning prop suddendly stopped, or did the engine just fail with the prop wind milling to a slow stop??
Iowaman From United States, joined May 2004, 3486 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 30614 times:
Quoting 727forever (Reply 9): Question, did the engine actually seize, meaning prop suddendly stopped, or did the engine just fail with the prop wind milling to a slow stop??
It actually seized, doing 80 knots with the prop straight up and down. Restart didn't cause it to windmill either.
TWAMD-80 From United States, joined Oct 2001, 988 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 30407 times:
It is great to hear you made it without any injuries!
Quoting Jhooper (Reply 6): Glad you and your mom are okay, but man I'd be careful what you post online while the investigation is pending.
I'l have to agree with this one. Also, I'd have to recommnd hiring an aviation attorney due to the situation at hand. It is possible you might have to defend your certificate later on down the road.
Three useless things in Aviation: 1-Runway behind you 2-Altitude above you 3-Air in the fuel tanks
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 30354 times:
Congratulations! Well done on keeping control and getting to the field. I wonder what the stall speed would be with 2 passengers, a load of fuel and no power.
Alias1024 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 1789 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 30230 times:
Great job getting the plane down and keeping everyone safe.
Quoting TWAMD-80 (Reply 13): Quoting Jhooper (Reply 6):
Glad you and your mom are okay, but man I'd be careful what you post online while the investigation is pending.
I'l have to agree with this one. Also, I'd have to recommnd hiring an aviation attorney due to the situation at hand. It is possible you might have to defend your certificate later on down the road.
I have to agree with this as well. Obtaining legal counsel would be a prudent step if you haven't already done so, and be very careful with any public statements.
Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 13176 posts, RR: 65 Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 30210 times:
Quoting Jhooper (Reply 6): I'd be careful what you post online while the investigation is pending.
This can't be said enough. I hate to say it, but the FAA and NTSB are not your friends in this situation. What you say can be used against you (and will, if they choose to pursue certificate action). If I were an investigator with a desire to make someone's life miserable, there are comments on this thread that I'd be quite interested in.
But I'm not, so I'll congratulate you on a job well done. You landed after an engine failure at low altitude, and everyone onboard walked away. That's good enough in my book.
Quoting TWAMD-80 (Reply 13): Also, I'd have to recommnd hiring an aviation attorney due to the situation at hand. It is possible you might have to defend your certificate later on down the road.
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 30173 times:
The engine stopped. Powered aircraft needing power to remain in the air cannot remain in the air with an engine that has stopped. They will inevitably return to earth. Why would you need an attorney after such an experience?
Dynamo12 From United States, joined Dec 2008, 16 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 30082 times:
Why all the lawyer up comments?
Quoting Art (Reply 19): If I were an investigator ...there are comments on this thread that I'd be quite interested in.
Folks, why not point out the issue you see directly?
I can understand lawyering up if you've had a series of crashes, but this guy just walked away from a low altitude crash, likely requiring some rather quick thinking. I'm thinking job well done at this point, and keep us posted on how it turns out (mechanical through to pilot error).
I really suspect that the FAA / NTSB has bigger issues then a guy safely landing in a field with no fatalities. There are probably a few hundred plus fatalities a year to deal with in General Aviation alone.
I've found this thread and post very helpful. Those who choose not to learn from the mistakes (or just accidents) of others are doomed to repeat them. Keep us posted iowaman!
Reltney From United States, joined Jun 2004, 162 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 29658 times:
Great job! Now try to sleep...
Almost the same thing happened in a 172 with the same damage. A part failed in the carb and I was stuck with idle power at 2000 ft. Great outcome.
I would rather be in a plane than a car as someone else asked in this thread.
The 150 glides pretty good. I am sure it is 8.5 to 1. A 767 (which I fly) is about 22 to 1. My cub is 5 to 1 and the F-16 I fly is 9 to 1.
I would fly with you again and your mother should too. You were delt a bad hand and made ace of the day.
Others are correct, admit nothing on here. One thing I gathered with your comments was your takeoff weight. 2 pax 3/4 fuel which was close to full on takeoff...what was your actual takeoff weight. Were you overweight??? I bet you were close, with in 100 lbs. Not that it has to do with your engine malfunction, it is something you will be de-brifed on if you were more than 1650lbs..I think thats what it is for a 150.
Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 13176 posts, RR: 65 Reply 24, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 29563 times:
Quoting Dynamo12 (Reply 21): Folks, why not point out the issue you see directly?
Because the investigation isn't completed. I'll be happy to share my concerns after it is done, or with Iowaman beforehand should he be interested (PM me if so). But I believe that making them public before the report has come out is inappropriate.
Quoting Dynamo12 (Reply 21): I really suspect that the FAA / NTSB has bigger issues then a guy safely landing in a field with no fatalities.
One would tend to think so. But I have heard of people getting their certificates suspended for some ridiculously trivial stuff. I'm certainly not saying that that's going to happen here - realistically, it most likely won't - but with that in the back of my mind, I'd be inclined to take the more conservative route until the thing has been resolved. It's just a CYA thing. Call me paranoid if you like (and I'll admit that you'd probably be right), but I believe in taking all precautions when dealing with the government.
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 29486 times:
Quoting Reltney (Reply 23): Others are correct, admit nothing on here. One thing I gathered with your comments was your takeoff weight. 2 pax 3/4 fuel which was close to full on takeoff...what was your actual takeoff weight. Were you overweight??? I bet you were close, with in 100 lbs. Not that it has to do with your engine malfunction, it is something you will be de-brifed on if you were more than 1650lbs..I think thats what it is for a 150.
I suggest you take Reitney's advice in the first sentence! ie don't post an answer to his questions
And congratulations again. An incident with the potential to result in 2 fatalities while you were piloting the aircraft resulted in none.
[Edited 2009-01-02 02:21:50]
26 Dw747400: First off, well done. A low altitude engine seizure is nothing to sneeze at and brining it in with no serious injuries is always an accomplishment. We
27 797: Wow very impressive, every time I am being trained for an engine failure I feel its quite a routine, but now that I have imagined what would really fe
28 AvroArrow: Wow, hope you got some new underwear for Christmas last week. Seriously though, good job. By the satirical definition of a good landing, this one make
29 MAC26000: Great job on putting her down safely.
30 Pilotpip: Glad you and your mom are ok. Get an attorney specializing in aviation if you want to keep your certificates, and do it now. Don't say anything specif
31 Dynamo12: Mir / dw747400: Thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected. Presumably one is asked for largely the same thing in any investigation as one would
32 Archer: Good Job! If just out of annual or 100 hour did mechanic put too little oil in? Our engines will run (according to owner's manual) on only 2 quarts of
33 LHR777: God job landing that sir, well done. You just used up one of your nine lives...! Have a great 2009, and I hope you get to the bottom of the seizure is
34 Bennett123: Congratulations on the safe landing. I would be careful about what you say publicly. The NTSB may be interested in why the engine seized.
35 Vw: Good Job Iowaman! But It was a forced landing, not a crash. Just like when you practiced it for your PPL checkride I have also had that happen to me,
36 Gulfstream650: Why don't you file a NASA report: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
37 LHR777: So is a 'forced landing' just a successful plane crash?
38 Nomadd22: I thought all landings were "controlled crashes" I can't think of anything that would get an NTSB or FAA officials interest quicker than hiring a law
39 Vw: LHR 777 The forced landing I experienced was not a crash. Three days later after the ice mealted, the airplane was flown off the farmers field, withou
40 RandyWaldron: Good Job! Be careful what you're posting on the internet regarding this experience. I would suggest you post the pics and don't comment anymore...jus
41 Jetstar: If you are a member of AOPA, I would contact them ASAP, they have legal guidance available, that is part of your basic membership. JetStar
42 HAWK21M: Congrats on the landing. What Was the Oil qty when the engine seized? regds MEL.
43 Olympus69: The only thing that bothers me a little is that the photos show the flaps fully extended. I don't expect you to comment on that, but I imagine the inv
44 Bennett123: IMO the OP needs to be careful about what he says. Also others should not ask questions that could lead the OP into making a statement that he may sub
45 YWG: I could see the engine quitting in the colder temp's if you didn't have cruise or full power on. From the pics, the air intake doesn't look like it h
46 ZBBYLW: I know that the Americans sometimes go very in depth on investigations, that being said a 150 that had a successful forced landing does not strike me
47 Pilotpip: You guys wondering why we'd be suggesting legal counsel have never dealt with the FAA. They will find something that you missed, and at least hit you
48 Iowaman: That was my thought as well. At this point yes. I had checked the oil during preflight and the oil was in the middle range of the dipstick correctly
49 N68TLCaptain: OR my thought would be wiring shorted out and engaged the starter. not likely, but it kinda makes sense.
50 Flexo: Good job on the landing! How did the left wing get damaged though? Can't figure it out, did you touch down slightly banked?
51 Iowaman: Because of the abrupt stop and nose wheel collapse, it appears as if the wing hit shortly before it stopped. The only thing I can figure is the momen
52 RFields5421: First congratulations on getting down safely. Maybe your mom will let your fly again - someday. Because the immediate view of the FAA is that the pilo
54 WESTERN737800: Good job on keeping everything safe. I was following a friend home one day (he was flying an Archer) and his engine failed. It sure gets your attentio
55 Max777geek: Glad to read you're safe mate, as well as your mom. Hope this will not stop your flights.
56 F9Animal: I have to say buddy, you are one lucky guy, and so is your mom. I was flying a Piper Tomahawk when I was doing my flight training. We were practicing
57 KaiGywer: Good job on landing safely. Now that being said, you had a camera with you, why didn't you take a few steps back and take a good photo for the a.net d
58 Usair320: If all was well on the runup as he said it might not have been a huge factor.(possibly a small one). When I fly in a 150 typically when we detect a s
59 Flybynight: Nice landing all things considered. Good thing the plane didn't "dig in" and flip. Pretty impressive especially since your profile indicates you're be
60 N6238P: Well my question is how long does it take for the onset of any carb ice? Honestly after reading things written after my post, the likelihood of ice of
61 Leezyjet: As the time is in "Zulu", I wonder if that technically means you had the first crash of 2009 ?. Well done and congrats on the successful landing.
62 Bahadir: Iowaman, congrats on good job you did. Now you have to ask for a.net administration to remove the thread completely. Believe me it will come back and
63 MD11Engineer: If the engine was completely seized, I would get away from the ideaabout carb icing. Even if the carburetor is totally clogged up by ice, the propello
64 CBPhoto: Iowaman, Great Landing, and even better that you and your mom walked away from it! Good Job! NOW please take everyones advice, have this post removed
65 Lovetojetblue: Good to know that you survived What were your thoughts as this was happening?
67 Flypig687: First off, as everyone else has said, congrats on getting on the ground safely. It is great that neither you nor your mom were hurt in the incident. A
68 Meister808: Son you have got more balls than I do talking in a public internet forum about an aircraft accident for which you were at the controls before the inve
69 Iowaman: It's a rental out of Waverly, IA. (C25) It had an annual inspection, but was 50 hours overdue for an overhaul. While I am a member of AOPA, there is
70 Arffguy: Actually, AOPA's legal plan is a separate fee, somewhere around 29 bucks a year for a private pilot. That's cheap.
71 B727LVR: Thats about all that needs to be said....
72 MD11Engineer: So the rental company gave you a plane with a timexed engine?! Hour and cycle limits on aircraft components have a reason! This could be a problem. I
73 Iowaman: It very well could be, and I was completely unaware of this. However, the overhaul was recommended and not required
74 Art: A word of caution to you, Iowaman. I rather think you pointed a gun at your foot by electing to release your recollections of your unfortunate experi
75 Gulfstream650: Meister, I put in the link for the NASA report in post 37. After I posted it, I noticed on the actual reporting form that it says quote: "DO NOT REPO
76 AApilot2b: First of all congrads at getting it down safe. I, like many others, am very glad to see you are safe. With regard to the other topic concerning the pe
77 Gulfstream650: Just thought that I would add my congratulations on your successful forced landing. But I'm curious as to how you damaged your empenage on landing. I
78 Jpax: Iowa, Nice job on the forced landing. HOWEVER. Why are you still talking and answering questions? More than half of the people on here have told you t
79 CBPhoto: Yeah..The ASRS form for NASA is pretty much a self reporting form! For example, if you bust a reg, or a FAR or do something illegal, then it can help
80 Flypig687: Gulfstream650, from what i understand about the NASA ASRS is that it is only an immunity from fines/enforcement for incidents and accidentally breaki
81 ZuluAviator994: I'm not on either side of the conflict here, as I know little as to how this works. But how often do the above said parties look onto a.net?
82 Toering: Are you going to put your stoy in to a trip report?
83 Jpax: Not sure about A.net, but I've seen quite a few YouTube reckless flying videos be deleted by the authors only to later post they were contacted by th
84 Aviateur: Did you really just admit to the engine being past overhaul? Did you know this *before* you rented the plane? You might want to be careful as to how m
85 Maxpower1954: I agree, the young man needs to quit talking about it on a public forum - even though the odds of the FAA stumbling across this thread are remote - bu
86 DiamondFlyer: What you are telling him there is that the aircraft is supposed to be in a location two hours ago, and hasn't arrived. Therefore, it is presumed miss
87 RFields5421: They don't have to - search engines running for the government will have cached any thing which talks about an aircraft accident. Deleting the thread
88 Jpax: He might as well. There probably isn't much left that he hasn't said that can incriminate him!
89 Mir: If they told you it was an incident and not an accident, this puzzles me: Either this wasn't your airplane, or I would start finding out why you were
90 Boeing4ever: Congrats on a well done emergency landing. I'm glad to hear you and your mother are all right. I agree with others, definately get a lawyer. Everyone
91 Vegasplanes: Iowaman, Congratulations on landing safely!
92 Maxpower1954: Once again, there is NOTHING illegal about flying past TBO. It's a recommendation only! http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviat...ky_is_going_past_tbo_19
93 ABQopsHP: As the old saying goes. "Any landing you walk away from, is a good landing." So I would have to say "well done IowaMan". Now get the plane fixed and g
94 Boeing4ever: " target=_blank>http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviat....html That may be true, but that doesn't mean the FAA or the NTSB won't raise a stink. There's
95 Gulfstream650: Just looking through the FARs. Who says that the damage to this aircraft was substantial - there's no definition of substantial damage in the FARs eit
96 Jpax: So you are saying that if you were the pilot flying, you would try to hide this? Besides the engine seizing up, a forced landing in a field, an ELT g
97 RFields5421: Tail number from the pictures and the report match.
98 Maxpower1954: Reference his very first post with the pictures, Iowaman has already reported this to the FAA and NTSB. Not many things can cause an aircraft engine t
99 Boeing4ever: Egad... That should read: The main debate in this thread is not if it is safe or not to fly something at TBO+whatever hours, but how the FAA and NTSB
100 KaiGywer: Well of course a lawyer would say that...advertise his business. That's the same thing as the cable guy telling you it's in your best interest to get
101 Gulfstream650: No no, don't get me wrong, I'm just purely going by the face value of the FARs.
102 MEACEDAR: Good to see you and your mother in good regards. Nice landing and I hope you find out the problem ASAP!
103 DiamondFlyer: Alright, this is going to be a stretch for me, from my experience this summer as a line boy. If the plane just came out of annual, doesn't that invol
104 Mir: You won't find it in the FARs per se, but you will find it in NTSB 830, which is part of Federal law just like Parts 61, 91, 121, etc. Some definitio
105 Flypig687: This may be true, but than again the lawyer was a family friend and gave his services gratis. For this situation and any time you need to talk to FAA
106 Gulfstream650: Makes sense. Thank you for being concise.
107 Mir: If you aspire to be a professional pilot, having an accident on your record isn't good. Having both an accident and a certificate suspension/revocati
108 MD11Engineer: There are many possible reasons. It could be the failure of a crankshaft bearing for example or a connecting rod breaking. We will only know after th
109 RFields5421: The initial report damage level of "Substantial" is not a factual finding, but an opinion of the person making the report. While the definition you g
110 ItalianFlyer: WOW...compelling pics man, glad you are ok and wish you the best dealing with the Feds. I have an acquaintance who had the same thing happen (cause st
111 Dynamo12: I'm very interested in the cause, hopefully when the lawyering up is done, we can get a follow-up after the dust settles.
112 Chuchoteur: ... you mention the aircraft had come out of overhaul, did it have an engine change? My only engine failure (on a single engine piston - Robin DR400 1
113 Mpsrent: Congratulations and good luck with the investigation.
114 KaiGywer: Haha, did he give you any advice on how to maintain altitude for future reference?
115 Slider: I'd get a lawyer because your A&P guy who did the engine work sure as hell is. This sounds like a mechanical issue for certain, but unknown obviously
116 SEPilot: Just a comment on the advice to get a lawyer. I was involved in a situation once where someone was deliberately setting me up and sicced the FAA on me
117 Icelandair75W: I had a similar incident. I think it was my 6th or 7th solo flight, on this past sunday I flew from BVY to LWM. Landing N3152K on runway 32 at LWM and
118 MD11Engineer: My flight instructor in Ireland once crashed a Socata Rallye through the dry stone wall at the end of the airfield of the Limerick Flying Club (look o
119 SEPilot: Having had extensive experience with Cessnas, I can assure you that a collapsed nose gear always will put the damage in the substantial category. The
120 Iowaman: Alright, I've been keeping quiet but here's the latest. I do have a lawyer. The NTSB is classifying this as an accident rather than an incident, becau
121 Chuchoteur: Alas... not I think he was rather upset at having been giving me grief, because as soon as I was on the ground he rang me up to give me his excuses,
122 SEPilot: This should have no relevance. For Part 91 operations TBO is strictly advisory; as long as an IA signs it off as airworthy you can fly it.
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