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Pilot Shortage?... Economies Of Scale Anyone?  
User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5446 times:

I'm just wondering with all the rigmarole of pilot shortages why a sizable number of professional airline pilots make less than poverty in the U.S.? What does a captain in a regional cap out at? $45-$50K? His training alone is worth twice that. If there's a shortage of airline pilots aren't wages supposed to go up?... Simple economics... I think. Even in the good times regional pilots make lousy coin... what's up with that?

For example... it's a well known fact that engineers are in short supply in the U.S.... so much so that Microsoft and other technical companies have been pleading with the State Department to loosen H-1 visa restrictions. I think most engineers with just a B.S. start out at about $50-60K, with a M.S. or PhD maybe $70-100K. I've heard of engineers fresh out of undergrad making well over $100K working for the petrochemical industry. Engineers have very technical training in college, but pilots must undergo rigorous (and expensive) training in addition to their college work, but make only a fraction of what engineers make fresh out of college... why is that?


"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

The answer:

There is no pilot shortage.

In the past year, dozens of airlines have either furloghed pilots or have gone out of business altogether, thereby eliminating their pilots' jobs.

ATA
AirTran
Aloha
American
Comair
Continental
Expressjet
Frontier
PSA
Midwest
Spirit
Republic
Skyway
Trans States
United
US Airways

All these airlines have either gone out of business recenty or have pilots on furlough. And who is hiring? Hardly anyone.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5386 times:

Yep a friend of mine who got furloughed from US (he was HP, got screwed when the East pilots decided not to honor the arbitrators decision). Just got hired at Virgin America. Bottom of the list again.

Quoting Flybyguy (Thread starter):
His training alone is worth twice that.

No it's not. Becoming a highly paid engineer means you did well in high school, did well on your SAT, did well in college, maybe even got your masters. You can't buy your way into an engineering degree and wind up at Microsoft. And you can't be an engineer without that degree.

OTOH, there are plenty of pilots out there without degrees. But they paid for their pilot training, bought sim time or time in a plane as a CFI to get their hours built up. Total hours and PIC time are the two biggest hurdles. Neither of which require a degree. Yes, it's not cheap to become a professional commercial pilot. But its easier than becoming an engineer. That's why wages stay low. There are a ton of unemployed pilots out there looking for work. A year ago it was a better market. But you didn't see wges go up, you saw hiring standards lowered. Ask a Pinnacle pilot, I believe they got as low as maybe 200 hrs of twin engine time a few years ago?


User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5244 times:

Even when there was a pilot shortage, which ended 2007 with the downturn in the economy, pilots weren't getting paid what they should at the regional level. The real problem is that pilots are their own worst enemy. There are regionals pilots out there who don't care what they make, they just want to get their time and move on to the majors or they'll simply fly for anything. For example Mesa is notorious for this philosophy (though it doesn't apply to every pilot there) they have some of the crappiest work rules and worst wages in the industry yet as long as JO gets pilots in the door he doesn't care what he pays them. He is even quoted as saying he is paying his pilots too much if he is still getting applications sent in. Mesa has lower costs since their pay is crap thus when it comes time to compete with other regionals for contract flying they will usually if not always have the lowest bid. They grow while other higher paying regional stagnate or shrink. The management at those regionals say, "Hey pilots you guys need to take a pay cut otherwise we are going to lose all of our contracts. Would you rather be making a few $ less an hour or lose your jobs completely." This type of gun to the head negotiating tactic works well and forces concessions. Once one regional airline forces concessions out of its work force most everyone follows suit. It is basically a race to the bottom with management dangling contracts in front of us with the condition of concessions to stay competitive. Most guys don't plan on staying at regionals forever so they accept the cuts so they can get more airplanes and a faster upgrade time so they can leave sooner.

The majors play the regionals off each other as well. Delta is notorious for this, they have 9 DCI carriers all tearing at each other's throats trying to get whatever morsel Delta throws out.

In order for anything to change pilots and ALPA need to take a stand on a national level and work contract negotiations together so that everyone gets contracts with a higher quality of life. One of the problems is that ALPA cares mainly about the higher due paying majors' members and not the regionals and will do what is in the best of the major airlines. The majors prefer the status quo because from a buisness prespective it is good for the bottom line because they can get really cheap regional contracts by having the competition.

In an ideal world it would have been amazing if the major pilot groups had decided to bring the CRJs and ERJs in house and not shun them because then there would be more higher paying major positions and pilots would start out with a seniority number much sooner at a major airline.

As long as there are pilots out there that are willing to fly for next to nothing the regionals will always have crappy pay and poor quality of life.


User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5197 times:

I don't know about America but

45- to 50k € wouldn't be that bad in Europe especially not near to nothing.

Pilots are highly skilled and expensively trained but in the end their knowledge is not comparable to anything what comes from a degree from a university.

They still earn the money by driving something.So they are a better skilled, trained bus drivers in the air.

They shouldn't get as much as an engineer.

That's just my opinion.


Regds
jush



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineAsqx From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5110 times:



Quoting Flybyguy (Thread starter):
What does a captain in a regional cap out at? $45-$50K?

Well, a Horizon Air captain after 18 years caps out somewhere north of $110,000/year and that is only at the guarentee. If they work over, there's more to be made at $121 per hour. Starting out is a different story, closer to $26,000/year for an FO on reserve.


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4996 times:



Quoting Jush (Reply 4):
They still earn the money by driving something.So they are a better skilled, trained bus drivers in the air

This is insulting. The problem with your statements is that there are 4 year college degrees in flying and that most professional pilots have one or an equivalent level of education. Last time I checked you can't get a bachelor's degree in professional motorcoaching.

In the end none of that matters though. The wages will be driven by the number of qualified people willing to do the job versus the number of available positions. Throughout history a lot of people always want to be pilots, so that drives wages down. I don't see that changing anytime soon.


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4965 times:



Quoting Jush (Reply 4):
Pilots are highly skilled and expensively trained but in the end their knowledge is not comparable to anything what comes from a degree from a university.

They still earn the money by driving something.So they are a better skilled, trained bus drivers in the air.

They shouldn't get as much as an engineer.

Sorry Jush, but you just don't comprehend the responsibility.

We slid 6000 feet down a runway last night with the brakes to the floor and wind trying to push us towards the edge.

Wish you could be on the jumpseat sometimes to see what the job entails.


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1982 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

A.net needs to get the youtube links working again. Here is a good video of what it is like to be a regional pilot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4801 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
Bottom of the list again.

Which is why I'm not a big fan of unions. If say a cardiologist joins a practice and/or hospital, he doesn't start at the bottom of the list in terms of work, perks, adv.

Unions don't allow good "lateral movement" within the industry.  no 

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 1):
There is no pilot shortage.

Hence why the pilots union is in "la-la" land when they believe pilots at places such as CO and especially AA should get large raises, etc.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8967 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4790 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Jush (Reply 4):
They still earn the money by driving something.So they are a better skilled, trained bus drivers in the air.

Ah that discussion again. I stopped commenting to that 4 years ago. And nowadays I just say: yes, I am a better bus driver who paid €130,000 for his "driving licence"...

Pilot shortage? The last years there was a pilot shortage, but with the recession this might change.

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4789 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
Hence why the pilots union is in "la-la" land when they believe pilots at places such as CO and especially AA should get large raises, etc.

You get what you negotiate.

If they don't aim high, they'll continually get a paycut.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4781 times:



Quoting Flybyguy (Thread starter):
I'm just wondering with all the rigmarole of pilot shortages why a sizable number of professional airline pilots make less than poverty in the U.S.?

Because nothing about what you claim here is true.

That's why.

Have a nice day.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4773 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 3):
There are regionals pilots out there who don't care what they make, they just want to get their time and move on to the majors or they'll simply fly for anything.

Happens in every profession. Paying dues and all that. Why shouldn't pilots have to pay their dues? Architects, lawyers, doctors, etc. all have to put in more time, with more debt, and low pay (except elite lawyers out of school) to gain experience. Are pilots somehow special that they should be paid high wages out of the gate?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4545 times:



Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 11):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
Hence why the pilots union is in "la-la" land when they believe pilots at places such as CO and especially AA should get large raises, etc.

You get what you negotiate.

If they don't aim high, they'll continually get a paycut.

I don't disagree with that, however one should be reasonable.  yes 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4522 times:



Quoting Flybyguy (Thread starter):
Engineers have very technical training in college, but pilots must undergo rigorous (and expensive) training in addition to their college work, but make only a fraction of what engineers make fresh out of college... why is that?

I think if you look at the upper end of the salaries, you will see the disparity show. While the entry level wages might seem lower for a pilot, the upper end is certainly more rewarding. Also, if you look at someone who has a degree, enters the military and receives their training and then goes to the major airlines, the financial burden isn't all that great.

Quoting Jush (Reply 4):

They still earn the money by driving something.So they are a better skilled, trained bus drivers in the air.

Yes, and they're laughing all the way to the bank! I always enjoy uninformed comments such as yours. Call me whatever you want, because at the end of the day I look forward to going to work and really enjoy the days when my salary hits my bank account!

One has to look globally at the question of a pilot shortage. In addition, it needs to be quantified. All in all, there is NO pilot shortage. There is, however, a dramatic shortage of qualified, experienced pilots. If one is willing to be mobile, having a good paying, secure, enjoyable job is not a problem. The "age 65" change was a recent change in the US; the rest of the world, for the most part, changed several years ago.

There is a glut of low time, in-experienced pilots. The age 65 change in the US will certainly hurt them more than anyone else. That fact, coupled with the economic issues will further hurt them. However, the airline business is cyclical and it's all part of the industry. I remember back in the mid 60s when TWA was hiring pilots with 0 flight time! But, only a few years later there was a glut of pilots.

In the US, a "national seniority list" would make things much easier, but how do you implement that idea now? That would make pilots portable among US carriers, but again, if it wasn't done from the start it's very difficult to implement 50+ years later.


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4510 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
Hence why the pilots union is in "la-la" land when they believe pilots at places such as CO and especially AA should get large raises, etc.

That's part of negotiating. I think they'd all be happy just to get back where they were prior to 9-11, and that certainly seems reasonable to me, no? The pilot supply now is probably slimmer than it was back then, even though it has almost always been adequate to meet demand. What kind of a business man would you be if you only tried to sell your business for what it's worth and no more? You always ask for more and take the best offer. Sometimes you get lucky, conditions are right and someone pays your asking price. This could be that time. Yet for some reason you feel the need to berate and ridicule organized labor for following these basic rules of negotiating.

Trust me, the union usually has a pretty good idea of the wages that can and cannot be sustained by their companies. They will not ratify an agreement which will put their company in any sort of immediate threat of bankruptcy.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22706 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4400 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 3):
In order for anything to change pilots and ALPA need to take a stand on a national level and work contract negotiations together so that everyone gets contracts with a higher quality of life. One of the problems is that ALPA cares mainly about the higher due paying majors' members and not the regionals and will do what is in the best of the major airlines. The majors prefer the status quo because from a buisness prespective it is good for the bottom line because they can get really cheap regional contracts by having the competition.

That smells a lot like price fixing to me, and price fixing is illegal. It's too bad, because it's not a bad idea, but it would take an act of Congress for it to happen.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4354 times:



Quoting Jush (Reply 4):
Pilots are highly skilled and expensively trained but in the end their knowledge is not comparable to anything what comes from a degree from a university.

You do know that I'd guess 90% of pilots have a 4 year degree. Most all airlines require it for a minimum application requirment



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4218 times:



Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 7):
We slid 6000 feet down a runway last night with the brakes to the floor and wind trying to push us towards the edge.

No doubt it involves risk and responsibility. So does being a doctor. So does being an engineer. So does being a crane operator, tug boat driver, etc. And just like a pilot, when those people mess up, people die. And they all have to work their way up in pay and hours just like pilots.

The idea that starting pilots should be anointed with high pay and low hour jobs from the beginning is part of the original debate, as the claim is that they are living in poverty and working slave hours.

Reality is that isn't true, and the starting conditions for a pilot are not different than they are for a lot of professions.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
You do know that I'd guess 90% of pilots have a 4 year degree. Most all airlines require it for a minimum application requirment

Because currently a minimum college degree is equal to what a high school degree was 50 years ago.

Other professions require advanced degrees and years spent earning no money and racking up debt, just like pilots do with their training and years as puddle-jump pilots earning low wages. You do it while you are young, with no family, live with a roommate, etc. And as you get older, if you are worth it, you move to a major and get better pay and start a family, etc. That's called life.  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1546 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4164 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):


OTOH, there are plenty of pilots out there without degrees. But they paid for their pilot training, bought sim time or time in a plane as a CFI to get their hours built up. Total hours and PIC time are the two biggest hurdles. Neither of which require a degree. Yes, it's not cheap to become a professional commercial pilot. But its easier than becoming an engineer. That's why wages stay low. There are a ton of unemployed pilots out there looking for work. A year ago it was a better market. But you didn't see wges go up, you saw hiring standards lowered. Ask a Pinnacle pilot, I believe they got as low as maybe 200 hrs of twin engine time a few years ago?

I disagree. There are MANY pilots out there with engineering degrees. I finish my degree in May, and in order to get on with the majors you need at least a bachelor's.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3144 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4054 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
No doubt it involves risk and responsibility. So does being a doctor. So does being an engineer. So does being a crane operator, tug boat driver, etc. And just like a pilot, when those people mess up, people die. And they all have to work their way up in pay and hours just like pilots.

When a doctor messes up, the patient dies. They go home, and come back and do it again tomorrow. When I mess up, 80 people die including myself.

Quoting Jush (Reply 4):
Pilots are highly skilled and expensively trained but in the end their knowledge is not comparable to anything what comes from a degree from a university.

They still earn the money by driving something.So they are a better skilled, trained bus drivers in the air.

I don't know of too many buses that are operating in an environment where the passengers would not survive should something go wrong. I also don't know of any bus line, or train line that has a better safety record than the airlines. Driving a bus requires no special training other than knowing how to drive a car which millions of people do every day. Aircraft are complex machines and no two models are exactly alike.



DMI
User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Not long ago I published an article about the pilot shortage myth:

Pilot shortage
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2007/12/07/askthepilot256/


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3961 times:



Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 16):
That's part of negotiating. I think they'd all be happy just to get back where they were prior to 9-11, and that certainly seems reasonable to me, no?

Possibly, I really don't know offhand the pay/salary/compensation structure back then. However, I did seem as if pilots were paid nicely back prior to 9/11 and I'm not so sure if pilots can get back to that level.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 16):
The pilot supply now is probably slimmer than it was back then

If that's true then it would certainly help on the pilot's negotiations.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 16):
, even though it has almost always been adequate to meet demand

...then that's a bit problematic.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 16):
What kind of a business man would you be if you only tried to sell your business for what it's worth and no more?

A "non-profit" organisation.. silly . In all seriousness, of course, one should sell their services/business for more than they put in or more than its worth. However, some of the AA pilot union's demands are simply not in touch with reality (i.e.-today's market place)

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 16):
You always ask for more and take the best offer.

I agree on that, however, once again, asking for 40%-50% raises, xyz, yada, yada, yada in today's environment isn't what one can call " reasonable bargaining"....

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 16):
Trust me, the union usually has a pretty good idea of the wages that can and cannot be sustained by their companies.

One would assume say, but as Benny Hill used to say...."if you assume then you make an ass of you and me"... silly . Again, in all seriousness, I think some demands from various unions aren't practical or in touch with reality.

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 22):
Not long ago I published an article about the pilot shortage myth:

Pilot shortage
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2007/12/07/askthepilot256/

Thanks..an interesting read.. thumbsup 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineDash8Pilot From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

There is only a shortage of TYPE Rated Pilots. As a Captain you would need atleast 1000 PIC on type and as an FO 500 hours SIC.

There are 1000s of the fresh CPL pilots, but very few type rated experienced pilots.


25 RoseFlyer : There is one big difference here with pilots getting 4 year degrees and comparing that to an engineering degree. A degree like aeronautical science is
26 Post contains links NorCal : Why not? WN has the some of the highest paid pilots in the industry yet they are able to be a profitable company with low fares. It is possible to re
27 NCB : I had my dinnner fly out of my mouth on the computer screen on this one...had to clean up. What involves becoming a pilot? -First of all you need to
28 Cubsrule : NorCal, I can't speak to all of the professions you list, but your link about lawyers is fairly misleading. A pilot with a 4 year degree can get a jo
29 NCB : Pilots too finance alot of their training. I don't know the exact numbers but a full course with Embry-Riddle is North of 80K, in Europe training cos
30 Cubsrule : But the costs of undergraduate education are roughly the same for all professionals (and the debt load is, correspondingly, similar). Graduate school
31 PhilSquares : Time for the You are chastising some for misleading statistics but you yourself do the same thing. I have a 4 year engineering degree. I was on a AFR
32 NorCal : I have plenty of friends that paid close to 150K for all their college degrees and flight training. Some went to places like Riddle or UND, or Purdue
33 Cubsrule : Absolutely... and while it may have seemed like I did, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't. I just don't have the numbers for ratings because a
34 Starrion : And to address the other contention, that there is a well known shortage of engineers, the reason that tech companies are pleading for H-1B isn't tha
35 Cubsrule : That's a horrendously imprecise generalization. There are certainly lawyers that make a ton of money, but there are others who toil all their lives a
36 Mm320cap : I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at these threads. I've stopped trying to defend the money I don't make anymore. What I do know is that those of y
37 Jacobin777 : They were recently profitable only because of their fuel hedges. Their CASM has gone up a bit. ..there are underlying troubles at WN as well. Even th
38 RoseFlyer : While a little more than 20K, residency takes a minimum of 8 years of advanced training and pays meager salaries. 60K is close to the average salary
39 Cubsrule : I never said otherwise. NorCal wanted to compare pilots to doctors and lawyers. If we're going to do that, we need to do it in a thorough way. I do t
40 NCB : You are indeed right, I must apologize, the difference may not be marked enough in the U.S. to make it real and there's exceptions on both sides. My
41 PhilSquares : My point was there is a cost involved, be it actual dollars or time commitment. Your sweeping generalisation made it appear as though you only though
42 ItalianFlyer : This is anecdotal but interesting, that out of my circle of airline friends & acquaintances, a number of pilots are looking at getting OUT of it ASAP.
43 Ikramerica : Give me a break. First, deaths from doctor mistakes are more common, so the risk is higher. Second, engineers, doctors, etc. can end up in jail for t
44 Cubsrule : That suggests to me that you've picked the wrong career. Surely, it's about more than just the money, for you could be making more money doing someth
45 Pilotpip : I'm quite happy, thanks. I don't consider myself a God or anything that you seem to assume. I seem to remember an old adage about assumptions that ap
46 Cubsrule : You guys seem to be assuming that my list of non-monetary benefits was exhaustive. It wasn't. I simply listed some facets of flying that some pilots
47 PhilSquares : You are mistaken and I never inferred that at all! But, your characterization that the "glamor" of the job was worth something is very naive and some
48 Cubsrule : ...then we're in complete agreement. Is it really true that no pilot likes the opportunity to see the corners of the world? Maybe my list wasn't the
49 Pilotpip : I know plenty that travel, myself included. I've used it to go to a number of places in the US. Haven't had an opportunity to go overseas but hope to
50 Aaron747 : As others have said, perhaps you don't get it. The marriage of man, sky, and flying machine has a base level appeal that gets most through the first
51 Mir : Absolutely correct. It screws over the people who don't want to give in to SJS, and ultimately it screws over the pilot community as well. When a law
52 Aaron747 : Many (not all) lawyers are also being paid to stare at very tiny print, trade barbs via phone with opposing counsel, and screw someone over at the en
53 Cubsrule : ...which is my whole point (that you missed earlier). There's more to it than money. Not in a direct way... most big-firm lawyers do not get paid by
54 NorCal : The guys at Mesa really suffer from SJS. I still can't believe they gave into management and passed that contract by 18 votes. Kudos to the Mesa 400
55 Cubsrule : But airlines pay what the market demands. Why do we assume that the market is wrong?
56 NorCal : I understand the market realities. I just don't think it is a fair wage and I hope that quality of life is improved for us instead of the continual r
57 Cubsrule : I'd argue that that's an argument for re-regulation rather than unions, but perhaps you disagree. Unions don't seem to have helped pilots besides the
58 Bahadir : Not necessarily.. there are so many things in pilot's life that works outside of market economics. Want to hear few? - Medicals: You lose it , you ar
59 NorCal : ALPA has done a lot for pilots but in order for them to be truly successful they would need to negotiate on a national level for multiple pilot group
60 Wdleiser : Engineers paid for college and worked their asses off in College. These pilots that do not have a degree, paid for their flight time and worked their
61 Aaron747 : It depends on the culture and society - in the states, we've managed to turn the airline pilot job into glorified bus driving in the perceptions of m
62 Cubsrule : Do passengers or the government subsidize the higher salaries?
63 NCB : Nope, it's a matter of culture as Aaron747 duly described. There's so much more for an airline to play with than pilot wages... Actually when as an a
64 Cubsrule : Somebody has to pay for better pilot salaries, either through higher average fares (passengers) or through subsidies (the government).
65 HOOB747 : Thank you, this sums up this thread perfectly. If you are a pilot, or an engineer, don't whine that the other makes more/less money than you do. Its
66 Zeke : The recent Crew Management Conference in Dubai revealed how desperately short of pilots, and maintenance engineers, the aviation world will soon be.
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Pilot Shortage In USA posted Mon Oct 22 2007 18:05:58 by IsuA380B777
EK - Serious Pilot Shortage? posted Sat Jun 30 2007 00:54:12 by Clickhappy
Pilot Shortage Will Cause Bad Holiday Season? posted Wed Jun 27 2007 20:54:59 by Flyf15
Union: NW Xld DC-9 Flights Due Pilot Shortage posted Mon Oct 9 2006 20:06:04 by Utapao
Pilot Locked Out Of Cockpit On Air Canada Plane posted Wed Aug 30 2006 11:53:49 by Eksath