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5th Freedom Flights  
User currently offlineEmirates001 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 45 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

I was recently on a BKK/SYD flight on Emirates and it got me thinking... Who is it that authorises such flights and irons out all the conflicted interests involved with such a move? Surely Thai Airways in this example wouldn't be too chuffed with a foreign airline coming in and stealing its route?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePP705 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

BKK probably has the largest number of 5th freedom flights. Other than EK, there is CX, AI, LX. There may be more airlines with 5th freedom flights from BKK. ANA used to operate NRT-BKK-BOM with fifth freedom rights between BKK and BOM. It's now a NRT-BOM direct flight.
I think the actual players are the governments of the three countries involved but the major role is played by the governments of the destination country and the stop over country.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4000 times:



Quoting Emirates001 (Thread starter):
Who is it that authorises such flights and irons out all the conflicted interests involved with such a move?

Fifth freedom rights like ALL air service rights are granted by the national government of the country you are landing in/taking off from.

Usually such rights are negotiated between two countries, hence the term "bi-lateral treaty". Generally the rights granted BY each country are the same or very similar to those received FROM each country. It's an outright horse trade. You want me to give you that, then I want you to give me this.

Exactly which rights are traded and what each country gets in return is totally up to the negotiators for each government. Usually it's like for like, so if country A grants country B fifth freedom rights, country B grants country A fifth freedom rights. What result depends totally on what the two countries can agree on and this in turn depends the situation of each country.

An example where like is not traded for like is in fact fifth freedom rights for Australian airlines in Thailand (and Malaysia, SIN, Hong Kong & most likely Vietnam) is that Australia granted Thai airlines SIXTH freedom rights between Australia & Europe in return for FIFTH freedom rights for Australian airlines between Thailand & Europe.

Note: Bi-lateral treaties are not usually expressed in terms of the "Freedoms of the Air". The rights of each country are usually spelled out in explicit detail. Also the rights are NOT granted to airlines, but to countries. It is each countries business as to which of its airlines it will designate to use the rights granted under the treaty. Such designations must comply with the provisions of the treaty, of course.

Of course countries/airlines of one country can ask the government of another country to allow one of its airline to operate a service outside their bi-lateral treaty. It is entirely up to the government receiving the request as to if they will grant the request. This is the situation with SQ and its application to operate SYD-LAX. It is outside the SIN/AUS bi-lateral and the Oz government has decided NOT to grant the request.

Hope this helps a little.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3981 times:



Quoting PP705 (Reply 1):
I think the actual players are the governments of the three countries involved but the major role is played by the governments of the destination country and the stop over country.

Actually the government of the destination country has no direct say on fifth freedom rights. Fifth freedom rights are negotiated between the origin country and the stop over country.

The negotiations between the origin country and the destination country will cover what stopovers are allowed/not allowed between the two countries and with what traffic rights, but generally this will not have regard to specific fifth freedom rights as the destination country will not necessarily know what deals the origin & stop over countries have done, at negotiation time. Also it would get too complicated, generally the destination country will specify what stopovers it DOES NOT grant traffic rights to the origin country. For example Oz airlines can fly between AMS & LHR on flights between Oz & UK, but cannot carry local traffic because the Oz-Netherlands treaty does not allow it. (That's from memory, it could be the Oz/UK treaty or in fact both).

Gemuser



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24080 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3969 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 2):
An example where like is not traded for like is in fact fifth freedom rights for Australian airlines in Thailand (and Malaysia, SIN, Hong Kong & most likely Vietnam) is that Australia granted Thai airlines SIXTH freedom rights between Australia & Europe in return for FIFTH freedom rights for Australian airlines between Thailand & Europe.

Australia must be fairly rare in including 6th freedom rights in bilateral negotiations. They are generally not a matter of negotiation and are just an automatic result of the carriers being able to serve the end-to-end market via their own country by combining their rights under the respective bilaterals.


User currently offlineEmirates001 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Thats really interesting feedback guys, thank you very much for responding.

I can't help but get the impression that the winners from 5th freedom flights are the most developed/regionally powerful nations of the world. Is this a fair point? I mean, apart from Air NZ's LHR/LAX or HKG circle trip, I can't think of any other foreign commercial airlines coming into the UK and then flying onto a 3rd country. This makes me think the UK is protecting its own interests. (but I could be wrong?!)

Just a further question : once rights are granted for 5th freedom flights, say MH's CPT/EZE for example or EK's BKK/SYD, is there a limiter on number of flights/pax set by the government or is that left entirely up to the airline?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24080 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3928 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):
Quoting PP705 (Reply 1):
I think the actual players are the governments of the three countries involved but the major role is played by the governments of the destination country and the stop over country.

Actually the government of the destination country has no direct say on fifth freedom rights. Fifth freedom rights are negotiated between the origin country and the stop over country.

I don't quite agree with that. If not mistaken, AC was prevented from operating LAX-SYD 5th freedom services because Australia (the destination country) would not amend the Canada-Australia bilateral to add LAX to the list of points which can be used as intermediate stops with 5th freedom rights (currently only SFO and HNL). I don't think the stopover country (USA in that example) had any involvement in the issue.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32183 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3916 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):
Actually the government of the destination country has no direct say on fifth freedom rights.

Not true at all. They do have say in almost every case.

If an airline wants to run a 5th freedom route between the U.S. and a third country, they need U.S. DOT approval.



a.
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3829 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
I don't quite agree with that. If not mistaken, AC was prevented from operating LAX-SYD 5th freedom services because Australia (the destination country) would not amend the Canada-Australia bilateral to add LAX to the list of points which can be used as intermediate stops with 5th freedom rights (currently only SFO and HNL)

But this did NOT effect Canada's (NOT AC's) fifth freedom rights from the USA. The destination country (Oz) refused to approve an operation outside the bi-lateral, ie operation via an intermediate point not permitted in the treaty.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
If an airline wants to run a 5th freedom route between the U.S. and a third country, they need U.S. DOT approval.

No they don't, IF such rights are granted in the bi-lateral between the origin country & the stopover country (USA). They already have the rights. Yes they still need to get administrative approval, which is just notification and checking that the proposed operation is within the bi-lateral, assuming it is, it's just a formality.

My main point here is that the bi-lateral between the stopover country and the destination country is usually irrelevant to the fifth freedom rights for airlines from the origin country. Those rights are governed by the origin/stopover and origin/destination bi-lateral treaties. Of course it is possible that the destination country may write something into its treaty with the stopover country about the stopover country granting 5th freedoms to other countries, but AFAIK it has never happened and if it has its pretty rare.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3806 times:



Quoting Emirates001 (Reply 5):
Thats really interesting feedback guys, thank you very much for responding.

No problem. its a main area of interest.

Quoting Emirates001 (Reply 5):
I can't help but get the impression that the winners from 5th freedom flights are the most developed/regionally powerful nations of the world. Is this a fair point?

No I don't think it is. I think its has far more to do with geography and history than anything else. Australia has a LOT of fifth freedom rights because aircraft required many stops between Oz and UK, 22 stops originally, now down to ONE! And we have been on the Kangaroo route for near 75 years.

Quoting Emirates001 (Reply 5):
I mean, apart from Air NZ's LHR/LAX or HKG circle trip, I can't think of any other foreign commercial airlines coming into the UK and then flying onto a 3rd country.

AI, KU, PI(?) all currently operate between the UK and USA. QF & CX also have the rights but don't use them at the moment. There could be others. SQ operate FRA-JFK & EK operated HAM-JFK until early 2008.

IMHO if a country is prepared to give 5th freedoms depends more on what the origin country can offer the stopover country in exchange.

Quoting Emirates001 (Reply 5):
Just a further question : once rights are granted for 5th freedom flights, say MH's CPT/EZE for example or EK's BKK/SYD, is there a limiter on number of flights/pax set by the government or is that left entirely up to the airline?

It all depends on what limits, if any, are written into the various bi-laterals. Capacity limits were very common in bi-laterals, less so now and most are being, at least, liberalised, if not abolished.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24080 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3802 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 8):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
I don't quite agree with that. If not mistaken, AC was prevented from operating LAX-SYD 5th freedom services because Australia (the destination country) would not amend the Canada-Australia bilateral to add LAX to the list of points which can be used as intermediate stops with 5th freedom rights (currently only SFO and HNL)

But this did NOT effect Canada's (NOT AC's) fifth freedom rights from the USA. The destination country (Oz) refused to approve an operation outside the bi-lateral, ie operation via an intermediate point not permitted in the treaty.

I'm confused since you seem to be saying the opposite of what you said in your earlier post that " the destination country has no direct say on fifth freedom rights. Fifth freedom rights are negotiated between the origin country and the stop over country."

But in your last post, isn't Australia the destination country? You seem to agree with me that Australia does have a say in whether a Canadian carrier can operate Canada-LAX-SYD with 5th freedom rights LAX-SYD, which they can't because Australia wouldn't agree to change the bilateral. If I interpret your earlier statement correctly, you are saying that Canada (the origin country) would have to negotiate 5th freedom rights LAX-SYD with the US government (the stopover country). Or did you mean something else?


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3789 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Australia must be fairly rare in including 6th freedom rights in bilateral negotiations. They are generally not a matter of negotiation and are just an automatic result of the carriers being able to serve the end-to-end market via their own country by combining their rights under the respective bilaterals.

True, but it is an accident of geography and history which left two strong markets separated by more than the range of any aircraft to date and that's not common these days. And the fact there are really no 5th freedom destinations beyond Oz because penguins don't buy air tickets!  Smile

Gemuser



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User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3759 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):

I'm confused since you seem to be saying the opposite of what you said in your earlier post that " the destination country has no direct say on fifth freedom rights. Fifth freedom rights are negotiated between the origin country and the stop over country."

Yes, that's right.

In the example under discussion:
Origin country = Canada, stopover country = USA, destination country = Australia.

Australia has no say or input of any kind into the bi-lateral between Canada/USA which grants Canada 5th freedom rights from USA. The fact that Australia refused to approve AC operating via LAX did not effect AC's right to operate 5th freedom flights from LAX, it just stopped them doing it to SYD, which is not a 5th freedom issue but a 3rd/4th freedom issue. It means AC didn't have rights between Canada & Australia via LAX, not that Ac didn't have 5th freedom right from LAX.

We are probably getting bogged down in semantics here, but I was approaching it from the point of view of what do the bi-laterals say and the Canada/Australia bi-lateral says nothing about 5th freedoms for Canada, it just say what stop Canadian airlines can make between Canada & Oz.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32183 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3752 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 8):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
If an airline wants to run a 5th freedom route between the U.S. and a third country, they need U.S. DOT approval.

No they don't, IF such rights are granted in the bi-lateral between the origin country & the stopover country (USA). They already have the rights. Yes they still need to get administrative approval, which is just notification and checking that the proposed operation is within the bi-lateral, assuming it is, it's just a formality.

Exactly. They need approval. The fact that approval is "automatic" because of an existing bilateral does not change the fact that they need that approval.



a.
User currently offlineQFYMML From Australia, joined Jun 2007, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

If I'm following correctly - DOT approval for the flight yes, but not for the actual granting of the 5th freedom which is assumed implicit.


Legalese makes my brain hurt  Smile



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User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3702 times:



Quoting QFYMML (Reply 14):
If I'm following correctly - DOT approval for the flight yes, but not for the actual granting of the 5th freedom which is assumed implicit.

Yes

Quoting QFYMML (Reply 14):
Legalese makes my brain hurt Smile

Mine too and this is a relatively simple one! You should see a four party, commercial contract involving 5 parcels of land, development rights, construction details and barter trade offs and the federal government as one of the parties, now that was a brain buster!

Gemuser



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User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3624 times:



Quoting PP705 (Reply 1):

I know that MS (Egyptair) flies CAI-BOM-KUL and previously had CAI-SHJ-BOM (and many years ago, BOM was a stopover to Japan, Southeast Asia and CAI a stop for AI on its way to Europe IIRC).


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