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Domestic Flights From Liverpool And Blackpool  
User currently offlineRaid1wa From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

How come there are no domestic flight from LPL or BLK. I know both airports have flight to the IOM and Belfast. But I would have thought airport of this size in towns of this size would have flights to the likes of London, Cardiff, Glasgow and Newcastle. As well as in LPL's case maybe Bristol, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Southampton and Norwich. Is there a reason why no airline has moved in here?


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23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

EasyJet also has flights to Jersey from Liverpool.

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4646 times:

Because it is too central to make flying a viable alternative for the most part. Anyway, most of the flying to that area goes through Manchester, so its not as if it is not served at all.


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Easyjet used to fly from LPL to LTN. I guess they could not make money on the route.

User currently offlineRaid1wa From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4583 times:



Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 2):

If such is the case then surely the same must be said for the BD route from MME-LHR when you can fly BA from NCY.

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):

Becose Easy jet could not make money with a 737 from LPL-LTN does not mean someone could not make money with a smaller a/c ie. Dash-8 or Saab 2000



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User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

I recall that in 2006, I was working in Liverpool, and considered flying home at weekends.

There were three flights.

1. The Air Wales service to CWL. However, they promptly went t*ts up.

2. The Flybe service to SOU. However, I needed a morning flight and their daily service was 1650. By that time, I would already be home.

3. The Vueling(?) service to LCY. Firstly, it is on the wrong side of London for me, (which would incur substancial penalties in time and cost). Secondly, the price was £57 by train and £160 to fly, no contest.

So we have three services;

1. Went belly up.

2. Only operates once a day. It is no good if you want to fly in the morning, because it does not fly until teatime. It is also no good if you are flying after work, because taking into account travel to the airport and the need to arrive at least an hour before take off, you need to leave Central Liverpool shortly after 1500.

3. Is only of use if someone else is paying the ticket. Even then, for many it is just as easy to go by train or via MAN.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

More extensive services have been tried from BLK and LPL in the past. BE did briefly try and set up a major operation in LPL with flights to EDI/GLA/SOU/EXT which didn't last long, though they have now returned with a IOM service

FR tried LPL-ABZ/INV but neither worked. ABZ has also been tried by Air Wales IIRC

From BLK City Star tried ABZ too and there was the Jetsteam Express operation for a while there too - forget what routes they served though. And also FR to STN for a while

So plenty of recent attempts at providing more domestic services that just IOM/Belfast from both LPL and BLK but none have worked.

Oddly enough it's not like Liverpool has many long distance rail services, you have to change. No train services to Scotland or Wales (there is a service from the Wirral to Wrexham though), to the South West or South Coast. Just London, Birmingham and a Norwich service via Sheffield/Nottingham/Peterborough

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 5):
3. The Vueling(?) service to LCY. Firstly, it is on the wrong side of London for me, (which would incur substancial penalties in time and cost). Secondly, the price was £57 by train and £160 to fly, no contest.

VLM

[Edited 2009-01-06 13:29:32]


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User currently offlineCwldude From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4404 times:

It's purely because they're well served by train services which, when you add all the time up that it takes to fly (getting to the airport + checking-in + potential delays + flight time + getting from your destination airport back home), it's quicker and easier to go by train!

Blackpool is also directly connected to Manchester Airport Train Station, where you have a much better offering of services to much easier airports!



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User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4376 times:
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Frankly beyond North/South Axis basically between the Scottish Cites and MAN/BHX/EMA/Yorkshire airports and Bristol. Plus the London feeders from Scotland NCL/Tees Side/LBA and MAN, the cost/time benefit of domestic air travel against the car and lesser extent train makes it pointless.

Other than the off shore isles only Southampton/Bournemouth,Norwich and points west of Bristol meet the criterion for viable service flows and these are served by the likes of Eastern/Flybe/Air Southwest and oldly Easyjet offering a Bristol-Newcastle route.

Ryanair have tried with little success a Blackpool-Stansted service and LPL-LTN was one of Easyjets early services.Never susseeded due to competition from the car/train and off peak bmi/ba flights at Manchester.

VLM flights from LPL to LCY just didn't perform anywhere near as well as Manchester because Manchester has both financial and media links that Liverpool just doesn't


User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1812 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4360 times:

Personally i think the location of these airports and their proximity to MAN determines their destinations on offer. LPL to MAN is, traffic depending, no more than 40 mins by car and blackpool about 1 hour. I dont use trains so no idea as to the time for them, but im guessing its similar.

Sure there are destinations served by FR etc but they use secondary airports anyway to keep costs down to a minimum. From secondary airport there will always be a higher demand for internation/holiday flights than domestic. This is because secondary airports tend to be located in secondary towns/cities. Im guessing the business links between Liverpool and London arnt as strong as those between Manchester and London.

Catchment area wise, take BA for example, i think they serve NCL which covers NorthEast, MAN covers Northwest, LBA covers Yorkshire area and then EDI and GLA and ABZ cover Scotland. That is quite comprehensive and i dont think LPL need be added. Any pax who happen to live in LPL would travel the short distance to MAN.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4329 times:

Just my view - The UK is not that big a country so I don't really understand why anyone wants to fly between cities that are not that far apart unless they have to. I mean I understand why people want to fly GLA/EDI/INV/BFS/ABZ etc-LON but not MAN/LBA/NQY etc -LON.

User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4296 times:
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Richcandy

Traditional wisdom says air travel is competitive on time/cost basis at around 3 hours in time.

You can also add that some industries (particularly finance and media execs value air travel)

Plus BA/bmi also need to feed the LHR/LGW hub networks or leave it to the competition via Paris Amsterdam or Frankfurt and Dubai.

We do not yet or even in the foreseeable (20 years !) future have a rail network running at TGV speeds and our motorway network is still something of a patchwork.

Roughly speaking.
Manchester/Leeds - London takes around 3.30 to 4 hours to drive (at legal speeds negotiating road works and with a single short comfort stop) and the train will take upto 3 hour to cover this distance.
If you have business in docklands or in the city your car journey from the M25 to central London could take a further hour or more!

So Manchester/Leeds to London is just about viable by air and Newcastle/Tess side certainly

Similarly going west from London the motorways end at Exeter again the three hour limit plays apart here so Newquay/Plymouth -London is viable option.
The GWR 125mph diesl trains slow sfter Taurnton and it takes around 3 hours to Exeter.
Drive and its going to take 4+hours.

Cross country travel is a beast both by car and train and makes air travel viable option over the three axis that do sustain domestic air services

Notable North West - East Anglia (Manchester to Norwich)
Rail will take you on a slow train for four hours and an excruciating drive along various A roads.

North West -South West (Manchester- Exeter/Plymouth)

NorthEast-South West (Newcastle/Leeds- Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth)

The three hour limit also plays a part in the effectiveness of Manchester and Leeds to Southampton routes

This effectively summarizes domestic air services.

Only Cardiff not covered and they have their own north south service to Anglesey.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4279 times:



Quoting Cwldude (Reply 7):
It's purely because they're well served by train services which, when you add all the time up that it takes to fly (getting to the airport + checking-in + potential delays + flight time + getting from your destination airport back home), it's quicker and easier to go by train!

But Liverpool and Blackpool aren't that well served by train services. Yes you can get very easily to Manchester Airport but in terms of intercity and inter-regional services there very poor. It's a case of changing trains. In many cases that may still be easier than flying but Liverpool especially has very poor rail/air links to Southern England, Scotland and Wales. Try getting a through train to Wales, Scotland, Bristol, Southampton - you can't

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 9):
Catchment area wise, take BA for example, i think they serve NCL which covers NorthEast, MAN covers Northwest, LBA covers Yorkshire area and then EDI and GLA and ABZ cover Scotland.

BA dont serve LBA themselves, though have recently started codesharing on bmi's LBA-LHR service



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User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1812 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4278 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):

Well said. I do have to say thought our Motorway network is pretty good. I drove from Manchester to Penzance the other day and it took me little over 5 hours.

But domestic airtravel is important, like you say BA etc need to feed their hub. LH and KL serve a large handful of regional airports in the UK and BA cant afford to leave them alone.

Conditions permitting you can fly from MAN to LHR in 40 mins? When i picked my dad up not long ago it certainly didnt take longer than that. But like you say Rutankrd, Manchester to London can take a while, especially as traffic around the Midlands is a nightmare even during off peak times like midday.

MAN, LPL etc are regional airports, but MAN is better placed, catchment wise and has a much better connection to roads, rail etc. This is the difference between MAN being a primary airport and LPL secondary.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4271 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):
Notable North West - East Anglia (Manchester to Norwich)
Rail will take you on a slow train for four hours

You might have to stand as well

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):
North West -South West (Manchester- Exeter/Plymouth)

Through train services now minimal

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):
The three hour limit also plays a part in the effectiveness of Manchester and Leeds to Southampton routes

Again now Leeds-Southampton through services now minimal. All in the name of simplifying the Cross Country network, but handing airlines a big advantage



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User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4214 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):
Traditional wisdom says air travel is competitive on time/cost basis at around 3 hours in time.

You can also add that some industries (particularly finance and media execs value air travel)

A friend of mine who is the MD of an insurance company based in London refuses to fly anywhere in the UK unless the other option means that he has to stay away overnight. He also refuses to authorize expensive payments to any of his staff who fly inside the UK unless they can show that they had good reason to fly. This is not because of the green issue or anything, just that he thinks that if someone needs to go to say Manchester for the day that they can get more work done that day on the train than they would if they had to go two and from the airport. (I know this only works for some destinations but city center to city center I guess it does).

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):
We do not yet or even in the foreseeable (20 years !) future have a rail network running at TGV speeds and our motorway network is still something of a patchwork.

Good point. I am sort of used to French motorways where traffic is nothing like English roads. Where I live in France is about 300km from CDG and there is a direct train takes 1hr 22min so why would you drive or why would Dijon or any of the airports nearby ever attract passenger services. Guess I am spoilt

Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 13):
But domestic airtravel is important, like you say BA etc need to feed their hub. LH and KL serve a large handful of regional airports in the UK and BA cant afford to leave them alone.

But why would you as a passenger want to connect at LHR. I mean if you live in Manchester would you not want the long haul sector to start or end at MAN? Example if you need to get to say MIA would it not be easier to fly MAN-x/EWR-MIA or MAN-x/MCO-MIA then MAN-x/LHR-MIA? Or MAN to SYD why would you fly MAN-xLHR-SYD when you could fly MAN-xSIN-SYD?

As I said before this is just my view but the sooner the UK gets high speed rail services to and from LHR the better. I am not a tree huger but just don't think that flying is always the best option both for the planet and use of time. I am a bit down with short haul flights at the moment. A few months ago I had to fly from LHR to CDG as my Eurostar train had been cancelled due to the channel tunnel fire. 2 hrs to get to LHR from East London, at the airport 45 mins before the flight. 1 hr 5min flight time, 30 mins to get off the aircraft and to the train, then the train in to Paris. I think it took me just under 6 hrs to get from where I was staying in London to the Gare de Lyon for my train home. If I had of got Eurostar (or it was running) it would of taken about 5.5 hrs so not much difference just that it would of been a lot easier.


User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4213 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 14):
You might have to stand as well

Can't you pre book seats on trains in the UK?


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4188 times:
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Richcandy where long haul is available from the regions sure!

Manchester does still have some Singapore/Pakistan/Qatar/Dubai/Abu Dhabi/Saudi Arabia/Israel/Libya various US and Canadian cities and the Caribbean.

This range and depth of services surpasses just about any French regional airport where the international services that exist are to the Overseas Territories or Magreb countries for obvoius reasons.

But if you/your company choose to use a British Airline then its either land travel or shuttles to LHR/LGW.

Newcastle has a daily Dubai only

Bristol has a daily Newark

And Birmingham (having NO London flights!) has Pakistan/Dubai/Turkmenistan and Newark flights.Plus seasonal Canada service.

Glasgow has Newark and Dubai daily. Canada and seasonal Philadelphia Chicago and Orlando flight.

Edinbugh -Daily JFK and Newark

Exeter and Cardiff have seasonal Canada services.

Their are No direct services from the English regional airports to Los Angeles or Miami (Main Florida entry point for the UK tourist is Orlando !)

Just like AF the UK airlines BA and bmi have determined that regional services don't pay(enough) and retrenched to the Capital.

Can you pre-book train seats in the UK -Yes but our franchised rail service can make it difficult as your journey (particularly if cross country) may involve several differing operators !

As for your friends CEO stance its reasonable and i have no objection to this myself.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

I also understand that the tickets are not " open". If your plans change, or you miss your intended train, you need a new ticket.

User currently offlineGLAGAZ From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2004, 1983 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4153 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 17):
Glasgow has Newark and Dubai daily. Canada and seasonal Philadelphia Chicago and Orlando flight

No ORD from GLA any more. You neglected to mention LHE and LYP on the scheduled long haul front though  Smile

Gaz



Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4153 times:
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Bennett123 - Depends std FULL fare tickets are fully flexible network wide but at heavy cost to your pocket.
The return portion of many (but not all) there and back tickets may also be accepted on earlier trains services without penalty.

The conditions are complex just what we Brits seem to like for our public transport service.

(Ryranair for instance have certainly taken to BR complex fares policy and diploma!)


User currently offlineCwldude From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4137 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 12):
But Liverpool and Blackpool aren't that well served by train services. Yes you can get very easily to Manchester Airport but in terms of intercity and inter-regional services there very poor. It's a case of changing trains.

Yes but that wasn't my point, my point was that you can easily get to Manchester Airport by train, so it's never a problem to fly from MAN, and in a lot of cases easier to fly from MAN seeing as you can't get to BLK by train and I believe LPL is a bit of a mission too?

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 18):
I also understand that the tickets are not " open". If your plans change, or you miss your intended train, you need a new ticket.

That's not always the case, if you want a cheaper fare then yes, your limited to use that particular service, however if you pay the more expensive return option, it's an open ticket, it's the same with most airlines, if you buy a cheaper fare it's non-refundable and non-changeable.



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User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1812 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4135 times:



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 15):
But why would you as a passenger want to connect at LHR. I mean if you live in Manchester would you not want the long haul sector to start or end at MAN? Example if you need to get to say MIA would it not be easier to fly MAN-x/EWR-MIA or MAN-x/MCO-MIA then MAN-x/LHR-MIA? Or MAN to SYD why would you fly MAN-xLHR-SYD when you could fly MAN-xSIN-SYD?

Where long haul routes exist, like Rutankrd said, they are used very well. At MAN for example in previous years we have had TG and MH serve the far east direct but these have since been pulled.

But your right though, in some cases MAN-JFK-MIA is much better than LHR-MIA but its about personal preference and cost. I personally find BA to be quite expensive so i would rather do the first, but some business' such as BBC prefer to fly their staff on BA, so in that case they would take the latter choice.

Its also competition too. The market for flights from MAN to long haul is there, but in BA's case they would rather ship the passengers an hour down the road and fly you from there. If BA didnt have their shuttle down to LHR a lot of current long haul routes from MAN would be more expensive as that competition from BA has gone.

Like we said, LPL is too close to MAN for any serious domestic services. BA cannot afford to fly a route where the market doesnt really exist and even so LPL itself is only 30/40 mins down the road from MAN.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4027 times:



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 16):
Quoting Humberside (Reply 14):
You might have to stand as well

Can't you pre book seats on trains in the UK?

On most long distance services yes

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 17):
And Birmingham (having NO London flights!) has Pakistan/Dubai/Turkmenistan and Newark flights.Plus seasonal Canada service.

Seasonal PHL begins this year on US too

Quoting Cwldude (Reply 21):
I believe LPL is a bit of a mission too?

Theres Liverpool South Parkway and a bus link to LPL



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