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Some Questions From An Amateur  
User currently offlineRakhamtheRed From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

Long time reader, first time poster, experienced flier, no real aviation knowledge. I thought the pros might be able to answer a few questions for me. I'll use KMSO (my hometown airport) as an example.

1) KMSP-KMSO, a flight I have taken numerous times (via NWA) always makes a sweeping 360 degree left hand turn on final. What is the purpose of this instead of positioning for a straight in approach? I am sure this apples to multiple flights and multiple airports.

2) Regarding runway 11/29 at KMSO, I have taken off and landed in both directions many times. I understand the traffice patterns at larger airports, but I am wondering if there is any rhyme or reason to these headings at a smaller regional airport.

3) From my experience, KMSO, KSLC, and KDEN for example seem to have particularily jarring descents/ascents (DEN-LHR on a UA 777 had some of us literally screaming) especially in the spring and summer. I am wondering what the pros have experienced at other Rocky Mountain airports, and others around the world.

Thanks for your patience! I'm hoping the pros will have some interesting insight here.

7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

I'll go very basic and let me know if you want more.

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
1) KMSP-KMSO, a flight I have taken numerous times (via NWA) always makes a sweeping 360 degree left hand turn on final. What is the purpose of this instead of positioning for a straight in approach? I am sure this apples to multiple flights and multiple airports.

Sounds like a 'Stack'

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
2) Regarding runway 11/29 at KMSO, I have taken off and landed in both directions many times. I understand the traffice patterns at larger airports, but I am wondering if there is any rhyme or reason to these headings at a smaller regional airport.

11/29 reffers to 110 degrees and 290 degrees.

Wind is a factor when considering runway use.

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
3) From my experience, KMSO, KSLC, and KDEN for example seem to have particularily jarring descents/ascents (DEN-LHR on a UA 777 had some of us literally screaming) especially in the spring and summer. I am wondering what the pros have experienced at other Rocky Mountain airports, and others around the world.

At which point in the decent?


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1732 times:

Welcome here! On topic, I cannot add much to Swiftski. The factor wind in the runway use means, that you always want to land against the wind (wind blowing in your face) as in that case you can have a lower ground speed at the recommended airspeed for landing.

As a side remark, it would be better for us non-US folks if you could use the IATA airport codes instead of the ICAO ones. I know, in the US the ICAO code is just the IATA code with a K in front, but I am not familiar with all the airports so the mouse-over feature which tells me the airport is rather convenient and works only with the IATA codes.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4801 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Firstly welcome aboard A.net.
Not familiar with your airport, but I think this thread would probably get a better response in Tech/Ops.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21498 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1671 times:



Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
1) KMSP-KMSO, a flight I have taken numerous times (via NWA) always makes a sweeping 360 degree left hand turn on final. What is the purpose of this instead of positioning for a straight in approach? I am sure this apples to multiple flights and multiple airports.

Could be a turn to lose altitude. Or, it could be that you're following a DME arc to the approach. It's not a 360 degree turn, but it's a long turn, so it could feel like it's a full circle. You can see this on the approach plate - it's the section north of the airport with "10500 NoPT" written above it: http://map.aeroplanner.com/plates/FaaPlates_pdfs/00266I11.PDF

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
2) Regarding runway 11/29 at KMSO, I have taken off and landed in both directions many times. I understand the traffice patterns at larger airports, but I am wondering if there is any rhyme or reason to these headings at a smaller regional airport.

Runway use has to do with wind. You want to take off and land into the wind as much as practical. So if the wind is coming out of the east one day, you'll be using 11. If it's out of the west, you'll be using 29. As for why the runway is 11/29 and not 9/27 or 13/31, that has to do with a number of factors. At MSO, terrain is probably the most important consideration. Since MSO is in a valley, it makes sense to align the runway with the valley.

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
3) From my experience, KMSO, KSLC, and KDEN for example seem to have particularily jarring descents/ascents (DEN-LHR on a UA 777 had some of us literally screaming) especially in the spring and summer. I am wondering what the pros have experienced at other Rocky Mountain airports, and others around the world.

I've never been to MSO, and I've only been to SLC once, but I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary there, nor did I notice anything unusual on any of my numerous visits to DEN.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1647 times:



Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):

1) KMSP-KMSO, a flight I have taken numerous times (via NWA) always makes a sweeping 360 degree left hand turn on final. What is the purpose of this instead of positioning for a straight in approach? I am sure this apples to multiple flights and multiple airports.

Loosing time, to give room to the previous landing flight, and possibly loose altitude without having anybody screaming, assuming there's room enough for a 360..

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):

2) Regarding runway 11/29 at KMSO, I have taken off and landed in both directions many times. I understand the traffice patterns at larger airports, but I am wondering if there is any rhyme or reason to these headings at a smaller regional airport.

Not sure what you mean, anyhow, the headings of the rwy "should" be choosen with an eye to the area wind direction at design time. In a couple of famous places this wasn't observed the way it should be OR there was not any other choice, think the most famous is KayTak, now closed, but is full of video and pictures around, where you may get the idea of "wrong places to build an airport".

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):

3) From my experience, KMSO, KSLC, and KDEN for example seem to have particularily jarring descents/ascents (DEN-LHR on a UA 777 had some of us literally screaming) especially in the spring and summer. I am wondering what the pros have experienced at other Rocky Mountain airports, and others around the world.

"Unfamiliar with the airport, requesting a follow up"


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1608 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
Not familiar with your airport, but I think this thread would probably get a better response in Tech/Ops.

Agreed, but as it's quite low level it might suit the casual reader here.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1536 times:



Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
1) KMSP-KMSO, a flight I have taken numerous times (via NWA) always makes a sweeping 360 degree left hand turn on final. What is the purpose of this instead of positioning for a straight in approach? I am sure this apples to multiple flights and multiple airports.

It's been almost 20 years since I have been to MSO, but if you take a look at http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0813/00266I11.PDF you can get an idea of the terrain. IIRC, the standard arrival is to proceed to the MSO VOR then out to the 340/25 which is the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) for the ILS 11. From there you follow the 25 NM Arc till you intercept the localizer and then you fly the ILS. NWA used to have their own tailored procedures for the MSO arrivals, I am not sure if they still have those. I do remember it was designated a "special airport" which required specific simulator training and an arrival annually.

Quoting RakhamtheRed (Thread starter):
I am wondering what the pros have experienced at other Rocky Mountain airports, and others around the world.

Simply put, it's mechanical turbulence. It's generated by the winds passing over the tops of the mountains and the subsequent uplifting and downdrafts in the valleys. HKG is very similar with almost constant windshear. It's nothing big, but if you haven't been in there before it can be an eye opener.


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