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NMB Says DL, NWA A Single Carrier  
User currently offlineBinMonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Delta net is reporting that the National Mediation Board ruled that Delta and Northwest now constitute a single transportation system for representation purposes under the Railway Labor Act. 07Jan

So employees of the new Delta to have to choose regarding union representation.

I have not seen an article on the main stream press.

The AFA and IAM next action?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4859 times:

If that is exacly what the ruling says, then AFA and IAM have 2 weeks to submit a showing of interest from more than 35% of the craft or class (per the NMB representation manual).

I heard its for Flight Ops and Tech Ops only, but I haven't seen anything in writing to contradict what you posted.


User currently offlineNwab787techops From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

DELTA DAILY for Jan. 7, 2009

NMB says DL, NWA a single carrier for representation purposes

Today the National Mediation Board ruled that Delta and Northwest now constitute a single transportation system for representation purposes under the Railway Labor Act.
Delta and five of eight unions representing pre-merger Delta and Northwest employees submitted evidence showing that we constitute a single transportation system in early November as part of our ongoing integration efforts.

The NMB’s decision is an important milestone in our efforts to combine Delta and Northwest and to align pay, benefits and work rules as soon as possible for all employees of the new Delta.
“We are pleased that the National Mediation Board agrees that we now constitute a single transportation system for representation purposes,” said Mike Campbell, e.v.p.-HR and Labor. “We believe it is in the interests of all employees of the new Delta to have representation issues resolved promptly so that they can more quickly participate in the benefits of the merger and exercise their right to choose regarding union representation.”


User currently offlineNW From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4725 times:

The IAM is saying it only applies to ALPHA and this is "a victory for the IAM".

This should be on www.iam143.org soon.

The IAM will spin anything to its favor.


User currently offlineBinMonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4643 times:

Company is saying the R.L.A does not allow a union to maintain their certificate to maintain representation of a minority group of a combined class and craft.

So does this mean the AFA, IAM and AMFA will have to call for a vote? (like OOer stated with-in two weeks)
• File cards for 35% of the combined group
I would think that anyone of the three unions has 35% plus signed cards in their back pocket.

I think that this ruling will force the AFA, IAM, and AMFA to call a vote. No wonder the strong language towards NW-ALPA for moving forward.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4377 times:



Quoting NW (Reply 3):
The IAM is saying it only applies to ALPHA and this is "a victory for the IAM".

I assume you mean ALPA and if so, it doesn't apply to them at all. They already settled on a contract between the DL pilots and NW pilots.

The only two unions that would have to decide or call for a vote, now, is IAM and AFA.


So, if the IAM or AFA don't get 35% interest, no more union, eh? If they do, then there's a vote, in which they have to get 51%, right?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4334 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 5):
So, if the IAM or AFA don't get 35% interest, no more union, eh? If they do, then there's a vote, in which they have to get 51%, right?

Something tells me they'll both get the requisite 35% general interest declarations, but there's always a chance they won't. Not sure which union is MORE likely to get it than the other - but my guess would be the AFA has a better chance simply because there are far more NW FA's that would be pro-union than there are NW IAM members that think the IAM has done anything for them but collect dues in recent years.

If AFA runs an election and wins, my bet that the deciding factor may rest in how many DL FA's are unsettled by the fact that the pilots walked away from the merger with as much as they did, and had as much leverage as they did. But in the end, that chapter in merger-building history is pretty much over, and any new AFA contract would be just a smidgeon better (if at all) than what non-union DL FA's already have - small risk of worse.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4318 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 6):
Something tells me they'll both get the requisite 35% general interest declarations, but there's always a chance they won't. Not sure which union is MORE likely to get it than the other - but my guess would be the AFA has a better chance simply because there are far more NW FA's that would be pro-union than there are NW IAM members that think the IAM has done anything for them but collect dues in recent years.

I don't know about AFA, but I think that IAM will fail to get the needed 35%.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4284 times:



Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 7):
I don't know about AFA, but I think that IAM will fail to get the needed 35%.

You're probably right - DL mechanics far outweigh NW's, and I think many on the NW side would just assume abandon IAM.

One things for sure - the next two weeks will be FRANTIC for unions, FA's and mechanics at both entities! That's a pretty short amount of time to collect interest declarations!

Anyone know how "interest" actually gets collected/tabulated?



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineCokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1184 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4180 times:

Labor board denies Delta Air Lines union request.

Where is the two weeks mentioned?


Associated Press
Labor board denies Delta Air Lines union request
By JOSHUA FREED , 01.07.09, 10:43 PM EST

Last year the AFA failed to win enough votes to represent Delta workers, whose wages are higher than their unionized Northwest counterparts. Losing a Delta-wide election would mean they lose representation of flight attendants who came from Northwest, too.

"We're happy that we can continue to move forward and make sure that this merger is beneficial to the flight attendants without having an election pushed through," AFA spokeswoman Corey Caldwell said. Asked when the AFA would seek an election, she said, "we're moving along at a pace that we feel is necessary."

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/01/07/ap5892793.html


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1620 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4148 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 8):
You're probably right - DL mechanics far outweigh NW's, and I think many on the NW side would just assume abandon IAM.

The IAM is the union for CS and ramp at NWA. AMFA represents the mechanics.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4088 times:
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Quoting BinMonster (Reply 4):
So does this mean the AFA, IAM and AMFA will have to call for a vote? (like OOer stated with-in two weeks)
• File cards for 35% of the combined group
I would think that anyone of the three unions has 35% plus signed cards in their back pocket.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 5):
So, if the IAM or AFA don't get 35% interest, no more union, eh?

The unionised NW Flight Attendants are already 35% of the combined total. There is no card check required. An election can be called any day now.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineNW From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4012 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 5):
I assume you mean ALPA and if so, it doesn't apply to them at all. They already settled on a contract between the DL pilots and NW pilots.

I did mean ALPA, sorry! And yes this does have to do with ALPA, they may have a contact but this does not involve what you are mentioning contract wise.

From the IAM TODAY, 01/07/2009 (www.iam143.org):

"Today the National Mediation Board issued its decision on the Airline Pilots Association's ("ALPA") application that Delta and Northwest be declared a single transportation system for the labor relations purposes governing the Pilots. Read the NMB findings and District 143's Flashpoint bulletin for the latest."

You can read the full version on the IAM website.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Quoting NW (Reply 12):

Ok......got that, but why? If they're already represented on both sides, why does ALPA need this ruling? And, how does this affect the other unions that are involved?


IIRC, the IAM and AFA were fighting against this very concept, now the IAM calls it a victory. I thought they were stalling for time until the "card check" legislation was passed?

[Edited 2009-01-08 07:26:36]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

As mentioned, the DeltaNet article is incorrect. Only 5 of the 8 unions on the property have petitioned/received "single transportaion system" status. The last 3 are the IAM, AFA, and ATSA.

There are mainstream articles everywhere if someone wants to take a look.

Anyway, to answer what this means, a little background: Unions-not the company- petition the NMB for this status. ALPA applied and was granted it. This allows them to implement a lot of the contractual rules and incentives they were offered in return for expediting the process.

As for the IAM, ATSA, and AFA? It doesn't mean much of anything different in the near term. The reason these unions are declaring it a "victory" are twofold: First, the NMB followed the rules they operate by, as opposed to what DL wanted. Second, had they gone ahead and granted this, representational elections would have to happen in very short order, something neither the AFA or IAM want.

P.S. Mayor, the EFCA doesn't apply to employees covered under the RLA. What they're waiting for (in addition to making sure their ducks are in a row) is for the Obama team to take over, and appoint the 3rd member of the NMB.... That should swing the majority over to Democratic.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3684 times:



Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 14):
As mentioned, the DeltaNet article is incorrect. Only 5 of the 8 unions on the property have petitioned/received "single transportaion system" status. The last 3 are the IAM, AFA, and ATSA.

How is it incorrect? Here's an excerpt from the DeltaNet article that disputes what you say.

"Today the National Mediation Board ruled that Delta and Northwest now constitute a single transportation system for representation purposes under the Railway Labor Act. Delta and five of eight unions representing pre-merger Delta and Northwest employees submitted evidence showing that we constitute a single transportation system in early November as part of our ongoing integration efforts."


What did DL want that isn't in this ruling? IIRC, Delta was pushing for exactly this.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

It's not technically incorrect. However, it implies that all groups are "one" (my term) , and that representational elections are coming in very short order, when in reality, it should say that "ALPA was granted this status by the NMB, and that DL's request to have the same stauts for the IAM, AFA, & ATSA was denied."

Look at how many folks in this thread thought the former was the case. Furthermore, if you look at some of the articles in the press, DL spokeswoman Betsy Dalton says the same thing.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3622 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 15):
What did DL want that isn't in this ruling? IIRC, Delta was pushing for exactly this.

According to this article at least DL got part of what they wanted..

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090107/delta_northwest_labor.html?.v=1

Apparently DL wanted the NMB to rule that DL/NW was a single carrier, for mediation purposes at least, which of course they got. DL also wanted a review of the certification of two of the unions (Flight Attendants and Ground Workers) which would have moved up the election that is going to eventually have to be held to decide if those two groups are going to be union at DL or not. The NMB denied that part of DLs request.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3601 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 17):

Ok...I understand that. It really doesn't make much difference, anyway. DL knows as well as the IAM and AFA that some type of election will have to be held, eventually.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3581 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 18):
It really doesn't make much difference, anyway. DL knows as well as the IAM and AFA that some type of election will have to be held, eventually.

What it does do is slow things down and allows the unions to (for lack of a better word) campaign properly vs a frenzied two week rush. The ruling increases the chances that the IAM or AFA will be successful in unionizing DL. I will say that I have no opinion on this either way and don't know if they will be successful but it does increase the odds.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLike2flyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2825 times:



Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 7):
I don't know about AFA, but I think that IAM will fail to get the needed 35%.

I agree. I've heard mixed emotions. Most of my friends over at NWA who are CSA's are no longer big fans of the union, especially since NWA's spoke stations were outsourced. They feel they have been paying dues for nothing. I think a lot of them are tired of the bickering and arguing and feel that NOT belonging to a union might be a nice change.


User currently offlineNW From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2683 times:



Quoting Like2flyguy (Reply 20):
I agree. I've heard mixed emotions. Most of my friends over at NWA who are CSA's are no longer big fans of the union, especially since NWA's spoke stations were outsourced. They feel they have been paying dues for nothing. I think a lot of them are tired of the bickering and arguing and feel that NOT belonging to a union might be a nice change.

That's what I here pretty much everywhere...most don't care for the IAM. Some though still want a union but not the IAM. It's funny how the IAM is coming out of the woodwork now getting all involved with its members. Where were they over the years...oh...collecting their near or 6 figure salaries?


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1620 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2169 times:



Quoting Like2flyguy (Reply 20):
Most of my friends over at NWA who are CSA's are no longer big fans of the union, especially since NWA's spoke stations were outsourced.

In reality, NWA wanted those stations gone and there wasn't much the IAM could do. Some say had NWA completely gotten their way, we'd only have NWA mainline employees in DTW and MSP.

Quoting NW (Reply 21):
Some though still want a union but not the IAM.

There are a lot of people who would support a union, although not necessarily the IAM.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

When will NW's name be gone forever?

User currently offlineNW From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2096 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 23):
When will NW's name be gone forever?

Hard to put an exact date on it, but should be within the next 18 months. You will start to see a gradual decrease of the name from now on. Were are about to start auctioning off the NWA branded items locally at each station; no firm date on that though.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1906 times:



Quoting Like2flyguy (Reply 20):
I agree. I've heard mixed emotions. Most of my friends over at NWA who are CSA's are no longer big fans of the union, especially since NWA's spoke stations were outsourced. They feel they have been paying dues for nothing. I think a lot of them are tired of the bickering and arguing and feel that NOT belonging to a union might be a nice change.

Maybe they should take a step back and realize what they still enjoy under the COPFS agreement. The outsourcing was maddening to be sure, but I have a hard time listening to people bitch while still reaping the benefits of what was negotiated on their behalf.

NOTE: I'm not against being the voice of dissent in a union. What I'm talking about is complaining for the sake of complaining...

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 22):
In reality, NWA wanted those stations gone and there wasn't much the IAM could do. Some say had NWA completely gotten their way, we'd only have NWA mainline employees in DTW and MSP.

That's actually a fact. The company wanted M/L employees only in MSP & DTW. Other larger cities (eg. MEM, DEN, IND) would have been handled by "Groundco," which was NW's idea of DGS.

Also, if you compare/contrast their opening offer, it looks a lot like what DL employees currently have now.

Despite working under the 1113 process in BK court, the IAM was able to secure/retain a lot of scope, benefits, etc. for the membership. There are M/L employees in 38 cities that can thank the IAM for their continued employment (and, yes, I'm in one of them).



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
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