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Rumour: UA 777 Y Class To Change To Avod & 3-3-3?  
User currently offlineBananaBoY From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1580 posts, RR: 22
Posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11020 times:

Haven't seen anything on here, but there is currently a thread running on Flyertalk.

There is a rumour that the United International 777's may have Y class reconfigured in a 3-3-3 layout when they fit the new, lighter seats. Also, it is mentioned that Y may feature the feature the same AVOD system that will be fitted in the new C and F seats.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ass-777-re-configured-3-3-3-e.html

2-5-2 is good for me and my travels, whereas 3-3-3 would put me off the 777 with UA. AVOD would be good but, as mentioned on the other site, it is pretty poor in terms of product consistency for Y class: 747's with no PTV's, 767's with PTV's but no AVOD and then the 777 with the "full monty."

As mentioned, no doubt UA will fit whichever configuration works out cheapest for them.

What are your thoughts?

Mark

[Edited 2009-01-08 07:30:46]


All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePhlstudent From United States of America, joined May 2006, 498 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10982 times:

if you read the posts, this is later said it is false. United in putting in larger screens and AVOD into Y and they had to put in new seats. And the new seats are not certified for crashworthiness though.

Post #47 who I guess is from someone who is in the "know with United stuff" just not this particular issues specifics.

No, sorry, mainly because I am not in that loop and I don't know. If I did know and it was not public knowledge I could not talk about it, but I am safe here since I honestly don't know.

I will say that from a structural standpoint that changing the seating can be a complicated business. Going from 2-5-2 to to 3-3-3 would not be a big structural issue for the floor beams, but factoring in an extra seat with an extra passenger and all of the G loads associated would be a big structural issue. The floor beams would have to be beefed up and the seat tracks would likely require some additional work as well. Each additional pound of aircraft equipment reduces your range, so you might end up with a high capacity airplane that only works on short range routes. Not a good trade off on a 777 IMHO. Adding an additional passenger, such as a shift from 2-5-2 to 3-4-3 would also impact the oxygen masks, the reading lights, FA crew staffing minimums etc.... It is not a simple seat change decision, you have to look at how you want your fleet to look for the next 8-12 years, not just the next year or two.

Now, that 2-4-3 option, now there is an interesting idea. But I have no knowledge of the future seat plans and can't comment on what they have in mind.


User currently offlineCAL From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 499 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10894 times:

wow... 2-5-5 to 3-3-3 with AVOD.. more inline with CO... interesting.. LOL  stirthepot 


CAL........Continental Airlines....... Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineGxman From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10857 times:



Quoting Phlstudent (Reply 1):
I will say that from a structural standpoint that changing the seating can be a complicated business. Going from 2-5-2 to to 3-3-3 would not be a big structural issue for the floor beams, but factoring in an extra seat with an extra passenger and all of the G loads associated would be a big structural issue. The floor beams would have to be beefed up and the seat tracks would likely require some additional work as well. Each additional pound of aircraft equipment reduces your range, so you might end up with a high capacity airplane that only works on short range routes. Not a good trade off on a 777 IMHO. Adding an additional passenger, such as a shift from 2-5-2 to 3-4-3 would also impact the oxygen masks, the reading lights, FA crew staffing minimums etc.... It is not a simple seat change decision, you have to look at how you want your fleet to look for the next 8-12 years, not just the next year or two.

They aren't adding any extra seats, right? 2-5-2 to 3-3-3 is the same number of seats. I assume that they'll have to replace all of the overhead passenger service units also. Can't be a cheap process.

I like 2-5-2 as I usually am in one of the "2"s. The poor soul who gets stuck in the very middle seat of 2-5-2, man that is rough.



Steve
User currently offlinePHLstudent From United States of America, joined May 2006, 498 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10786 times:



Quoting Gxman (Reply 3):

just to clarify, those are not my words, I copied that over from post 47. but according to that person it would be too expensive and time consuming to do.


User currently offlinePlateMan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10786 times:

Our friend Cranky had a post -and then a correction/update post- on his blog.

Initial post:
http://crankyflier.com/2009/01/06/un...ration-requiring-changes-in-coach/

Follow-up:
http://crankyflier.com/2009/01/07/fo...up-on-uniteds-777-reconfiguration/



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10773 times:

Well, it looks like UA is trying to be more competitive with DL and CO. When DL first introduced the 777, they were also in a 2-5-2 layout, however, DL did an experiment with the last two 772ERs delivered in a 3-3-3 layout, and it became clear that most DL FFs preferred the 3-3-3 layout over the 2-5-2 layout, and thus DL changed all of their 777s to 3-3-3.

As for AVOD, it is probably a good idea, as UA's IFE lags behind the competition.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10647 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
UA's IFE lags behind the competition.

No kidding! I've flown UA's 777s and the PTVs, while nice, are nowhere near as good as SQ's and EK's. And the 744s, their IFE (or lack thereof) leaves so much to be desired.

UA needs to totally revamp their IFE system and get it up to par with international standards. They need to get lighter, slimline seats, equipped with PTVs/AVOD across the entire international fleet (yes, that includes the 744s---and that should end the so-called "weight problem" that people on here always use as an excuse for UA's lousy IFE on those aircraft).


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10536 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 7):
UA needs to totally revamp their IFE system and get it up to par with international standards.

UA needs to revamp lots of things to be up to international standards. They're headed in the right direction with their new Business and First class, but still a long ways to go. The 744s are critical, as you mention, and they also need to invest in their soft product.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10505 times:

Well suposedly 3*3*3 is not a rumor and will be how UA reconfigures the 777s it has been mentioned on here a few times but never had its own thread before. What I was told is UA is changing the seats out because the IFE systems on the 777s can't be "split" between F/J and Y. Initially UA was simply going to retrofit new PTVs onto the existing 777 Y class seats however the new PTVs are larger and won't fit properly into the seats so UA moved up the Y class retrofit a bit on the 777.

I don't know if the new Y class will eventually be retrofitted to the 767/744 fleet or not but the 777s are a start. There is also a rumor that UA is testing out the next generation of slim line seats on a 752...supposedly no PTVs yet but they did swap the overhead CRTs for LCDs and put power ports in Y class.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16870 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10468 times:



Quoting CAL (Reply 2):
wow... 2-5-5 to 3-3-3 with AVOD.. more inline with CO... interesting.. LOL

My thoughts exactly, bring their products in line and do as much as possible outside of a merger so that there is less to do when there is a merger.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25388 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10468 times:

New seats, new video screens and 3-3-3 are not a rumor but was actualy recently published in a crew document.

United will also be adding bunk crew rest facilities on 8 additional 777. (13 have them now and are required for flights planned 12+ hrs)



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10403 times:

Is there a AVOD implementation w/o taking up under seat space?

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10353 times:

While it may be different now with the modern AVOD systems, historically, putting PTVs into Y class with 2-5-2 seating like AA has required 4 boxes per row (ADFJ), while 3-3-3 required only 3 boxes (on DL it's BEH). This was because the boxes were scalable for numbers of seats up to 3 in most cases, 4 in some newer setups.

Considering that the AVOD systems are more complex, not less, running 5 seats from 1 box would mean a very large box that gets hot. But from what I've seen, some AVOD systems take 4 boxes per row anyway, some work in sections, some in columns, etc. So it's less clear.

So, short answer, with the older technology, to save weight on the aircraft as well as system cost and decrease failures (fewer boxes), airlines install 3-3-3 seats. If UA is doing it, their AVOD system still probably works this way.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10334 times:



Quoting Phlstudent (Reply 1):
I will say that from a structural standpoint that changing the seating can be a complicated business. Going from 2-5-2 to to 3-3-3 would not be a big structural issue for the floor beams, but factoring in an extra seat with an extra passenger and all of the G loads associated would be a big structural issue. The floor beams would have to be beefed up and the seat tracks would likely require some additional work as well. Each additional pound of aircraft equipment reduces your range, so you might end up with a high capacity airplane that only works on short range routes. Not a good trade off on a 777 IMHO.

Id agree that the seat-tracks might need to be reworked, but I think they should be able to work it out without moving the tracks at all. As for the floor beams I simply do not buy that argument at all, carriers have a variation of 2-5-2, 3-3-3 and 3-4-3 and have easily interchanged between them with no structural modifications at all. PSU's and some o2 masks would more than likely need to be moved, but its not as difficult a task as you make out. These parts are designed to be relatively easily swapped out and/or modified. Cabin reconfiguration is not uncommon.
By switching to 3-3-3 UA will actually save weight, as only 3 equipment boxes will be required as opposed to 4 at present.

Quoting ADent (Reply 12):
Is there a AVOD implementation w/o taking up under seat space?

I think several carriers have installed the boxes in the spaces between the floor beams on the underside of the floor. AC is one that comes to mind, although I am sure there must be others.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10323 times:



Quoting ADent (Reply 12):
Is there a AVOD implementation w/o taking up under seat space?

There is at least one out there (Thales on AC) I don't know if this is going to be one of them thought.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
If UA is doing it, their AVOD system still probably works this way.

IIRC UA is retrofitting Panasonic's eX2 system in F/J on the 744/763 so I would assume its the same system on the 777. I think the current system on the 777s and in Y on the 763/744 is Rockwell Collins.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9962 times:

The 747 test bird with the new seats...those are the seats to go into the return to mainline TED aircraft starting late spring.

User currently offlineUAORD2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9709 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 9):
I don't know if the new Y class will eventually be retrofitted to the 767/744 fleet or not but the 777s are a start. There is also a rumor that UA is testing out the next generation of slim line seats on a 752...supposedly no PTVs yet but they did swap the overhead CRTs for LCDs and put power ports in Y class

They had planned to do that; however, it was scrapped.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9568 times:



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 16):
The 747 test bird with the new seats...those are the seats to go into the return to mainline TED aircraft starting late spring.

That's what I was hearing as well...I assume you mean 752 not 747?

Quoting UAORD2000 (Reply 17):
They had planned to do that; however, it was scrapped.

What was scrapped retrofitting the 744/763 or testing it out on a 752?



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9543 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 15):
IIRC UA is retrofitting Panasonic's eX2 system in F/J on the 744/763 so I would assume its the same system on the 777. I think the current system on the 777s and in Y on the 763/744 is Rockwell Collins.

Then I believe that system installs under the seats like the older PTV boxes, not under the floor or at the front of a column/section like some systems.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBananaboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9216 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
New seats, new video screens and 3-3-3 are not a rumor but was actualy recently published in a crew document.

United will also be adding bunk crew rest facilities on 8 additional 777. (13 have them now and are required for flights planned 12+ hrs)

Did the crew document give a hopeful date for implementation?

Interesting regarding the crew rest modification.. makes sense as I doubt crew would want to use a middle seat for rest. With the additional 8 receiving modifications, does that mean that all of the international 777's will have the bunk crew rests (presumably below deck as per the existing configurations) or will there still be 2 different seating configurations as now?


Mark



All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9216 times:

Just a point to add to the discussion from my days in airline corporate sales....

3-3-3 and 2-5-2 are both more or less equal from a business passenger perspective up to 66% occupancy - in that, assuming everyone is a single flyer, both configurations allow everyone either a window or an aisle, again, up to 66% occupany.

For the second most common type of passengers (couples), 2-5-2 gets you 4 couples per row comfortably, while only 3 couples can sit comfortably on a row configured 3-3-3 in that one couple is split up and sitting with a stranger.

In reality, passengers largely come in groups of singles (most common) and couples, which still works best on a 2-5-2 configuration up to 66% load factors, in that you get more people with a window, aisle or empty seat next to them.

The real differentiator comes in situations above 66%. In this scenario, regardless of the mix o couples or singles, 2-5-2 works better and provides more aisls, windows or empty seats as your neighbor...up to load factors of around 78%. Above 78% we return to the situation of both configuartions working out about equal in terms of unfavorable and favorable situations; then, finally, above around 89% 2-5-2 starts to raise the spectre of the dreaded middle man in the group of 5....

After months of research and discussion, we determined that 3-3-3 looks better to everyone initially, but in reality 2-5-2 works better in most environments in most load factors for more customers....

Just sharing here...

Cairo


User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8832 times:



Quoting Bananaboy (Reply 20):

Interesting regarding the crew rest modification.. makes sense as I doubt crew would want to use a middle seat for rest. With the additional 8 receiving modifications, does that mean that all of the international 777's will have the bunk crew rests (presumably below deck as per the existing configurations) or will there still be 2 different seating configurations as now?

No. 46 of the 52 777s are in the three class configuration. Only 16 of them are currently configured in the XP configuration (crew bunks). Therefore, 22 777s will remain with the old configuration: "pitching a tent in first class" for the pilots (Row 3), and the first few rows of Y+ curtained off for flight attendants. Presumably, none of the non ER models that fly ORD/IAD-Europe/Brazil will get bunk refitting work.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25388 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8110 times:



Quoting Bananaboy (Reply 20):
Did the crew document give a hopeful date for implementation?

8 of the current XI configuration planes will get lower lobe crew rest facilities installed. Additionally the cockpit bunk house will be fitted with 2 First Class Suites. Eventually the remaining 15 XP planes will also get the new seats in the pilot FCR also.

The 8 lower lobe and bunkhouse kits are in stock and planned for installation the second half of this year.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 22):
Only 16 of them are currently configured in the XP configuration (crew bunks).

15 -



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4988 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8018 times:



Quoting BananaBoY (Thread starter):
2-5-2 is good for me and my travels, whereas 3-3-3 would put me off the 777 with UA.



Quoting Gxman (Reply 3):
I like 2-5-2 as I usually am in one of the "2"s.

This is a common discussion with regard to the B777, (and the DC-10, L1011 and MD-11). Most people when looking at the seat chart prefer the 2-5-2 layout. This is because when they picture themselves on the aircraft, they see themselves nowhere but in one of the pairs of seats along the outboard of the aircraft.

This fits their needs perfectly, window/aisle, everyone is happy. It never even occurs to them that in fact there is a 56% chance they will be sitting in the sea of seats in the middle of aircraft and not quite so happy!

In fact, other than the usual visitor here, the vast majority of passengers never even look at, nor consider a seat chart when booking a flight.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 Dufo : Why don't they simply configure half of economy cabin in 3-3-3 and other in 2-5-2?
26 United Airline : Wonder when will they install PTVs and AVOD in B 747-400 Y class
27 N104UA : Does Anybody have the seat maps that first came out in 07 when UA announced the new config, they were .pdf and showed where the crew rests, are as I c
28 Abrelosojos : = ... and since UAL is sitting on a pile of cash in a credit friendly economy, this would be easy . Trust me, I have begun to hate almost everything
29 United1 : They are actually on seatguru.com I think its configuration number 3.
30 UAORD2000 : Testing it on a 752. They had plans to go to Slimline seats and add an additional row of seats in Economy.
31 N104UA : I know they are on seat guru but the ones I am talking about were technical aspects with more detail
32 Post contains links United1 : Try this then.... http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/united/28964/
33 N104UA : " target=_blank>http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/united...8964/ Thanks That is what I was looking for
34 Bananaboy : Great post! I just hope that UA agrees with you, although reading the info on this thread, I sense that 3-3-3 is on its way. Mark
35 787KQ : The great discomfort of being in the bank of five when the plane is full, beats any analysis. Take a seven hour flight in the center of the bank on a
36 Zkpilot : No extra seats...not sure what you are going on about 9 across in both configs. 3-3-3 config is more efficient from an IFE point of view in that it s
37 Concordski : It's about time United decided to move away from 2-5-2. I wouldn't be able to stand the idea of being in the middle of the 5 seat section. Even if the
38 RDUDDJI : Or make your reservation conditional on not getting an "E" seat.
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