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McCain Wants To Open Up DCA/LGA To The West Coast  
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14463 times:

Mr. McCain want to abolish LGA/DCA perimeter rules.

John McCain this week introduced legislation to abolish the "perimeter rules" that restrict flights to/from Washington National and New York LaGuardia. Federal statute prohibits flights between DCA and airports beyond 1,250 mi., A similar 1,500 mi. restriction is imposed on LGA with an exception made for service to Denver. Exceptions also have been granted for limited flights between DCA and DEN, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City and Seattle.

here's the link:

http://atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=1%2F9%2F2009

160 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14466 times:

I hope this legislation passes.


smrtrthnu
User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2876 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14418 times:



Quoting Juventus (Thread starter):
Mr. McCain

You mean senator McCain  Smile

And I agree with this... mainly cause LGA could possibly free up some of the load currently on JFK and EWR.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 4965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14415 times:

This will open the door to US starting nonstop DCA-SAN... so let's have it pass!


Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14337 times:



Quoting San747 (Reply 3):
This will open the door to US starting nonstop DCA-SAN... so let's have it pass!

I doubt UA and CO will agree with you, as far as having it pass, UA's JFK/ IAD and CO's EWR-West Coast flights have to be thier domestic "bread and butter".

As far as the possibility of a bunch of cariers bidding DCA-LAX (if it passes), how would that affect IAD?? UA, DL, AA and Virgin already fly IAD-LAX....


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14284 times:

I work for a US Airways Express carrier. We fly a lot of flights in and out of LGA. Many of these flights seem to exist solely to keep the slots in the hands of US AIrways because they rarely carry any significant loads.

I would think the same might be true for other 'Express'-type operations at LGA and even DCA and that the mothership carriers might try to open up those airports to longer flights if they could.

There have been constant rumors that US Airways would like to add some PHX or LAS or LAX flying out of LGA with 757s. To do this they would use some of their slots currently being used by the Express carriers.

I see no reason to artificially create more traffic congestion by keeping antiquated rules in place if they no longer serve any public purpose. And it is hard to see what public purpose is really served by these perimeter rules.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14224 times:

The lifting of the perimeter restriction might be a moot point, if the "pier" limits are still in effect.

The last time I routinely dispatched flights in/out of LGA (1982, QH), our brand-new -17R powered B722s with a max takeoff weight of 205,000 lbs. were restricted by the pier limits down to a max of 176,000 lbs. The loss of that 29,000 lbs. would mean less fuel-carrying ability and thus less than maximum range flights. Thngs may have changed since 1982 (likely), but I'm not aware either way (but certainly will be before my current airline starts LGA ops...)  Wink


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5838 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14221 times:



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 6):
And it is hard to see what public purpose is really served by these perimeter rules.

 checkmark 

All they accomplish is to favor a few people from small, close-by cities at the expense of a much greater number of people from larger, further-away cities.

We would absolutely for sure see DCA-SFO and more frequencies on DCA-LAX if the perimeter rule were gone. I think DCA-SAN and DCA-PDX are also reasonable possibilities but less certain.

As a DC resident who flies often to the West Coast and who finds IAD horrendously inconvenient (to the degree that I'll connect through DEN or even JFK instead of using it), I think this can't come soon enough.

It's a bit  boggled  that I agree with Senator McCain on anything, but I guess there's always a first time...  Smile


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14063 times:

there is no economic reason for the perimeter restrictions to remain in place.

A300s, 763s and 4s have operated from LGA from years; DL just demonstrated that a 763 can operated from DCA and that was an A model, not the higher powered 767s that are what all US carriers have predominantly in their fleet.

DCA and LGA are perfectly capable of handling transcon widebodies although the 757 is probably the preferred plane and it can easily operate from both airports - and all US network majors fly it.

the result will be loss of some service to smaller communities but is it really in the US' best interest to be having turboprops and small RJs clogging congested airspace when there is a market for flying 180+ passenger aircraft?

and the transcon markets are not the bread and butter of any carrier any more. At one time AA and UA got 25% of their revenue from transcon markets but competition has pushed fares down and those carriers have expanded their networks such that transcons are still an important source of revenue but by far not the only profit center they once were.

The losers would be the LFCs that currently offer nonstop transcon service from other airports (mostly B6) but have relatively few slots at DCA or LGA. The winners would be network carriers with large slot holdings at LGA and DCA like AA, DL, and US.

the market needs to determine how to use these assets, not government.


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14037 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
the result will be loss of some service to smaller communities

There will not be significant loss. Possibly some loss of frequency, but ultimately not a significant loss of ability to fly in and out of those communities.

I fly a lot of those flights to smaller communities out of DCA and LGA and they are rarely full. Or even close to it. It is not uncommon to have loads of 20 passengers on some of those flights.

The other day I flew LGA-ILM-LGA and we had, IIRC, 13 going down and 9 coming back.

I don't run those airlines, but it is hard for me to believe that flights that consistently operate with such small loads are kept in place for any reason other than that they allow the main carrier to continue to control those slots. I can't believe they are making money on these routes and I do believe that they would make money flying west of the Mississippi if given the chance.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13957 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 8):
As a DC resident who flies often to the West Coast and who finds IAD horrendously inconvenient (to the degree that I'll connect through DEN or even JFK instead of using it), I think this can't come soon enough.

Agreed. Having just moved to DC from LA it makes a HUGE difference to be able to catch the AS n/s DCA-LAX (DCA is a short train ride away from me) than having to make my way to IAD. It would be great if VX and UA could serve the route too as I prefer them to AS.

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 8):
It's a bit that I agree with Senator McCain on anything, but I guess there's always a first time...

Same here!


User currently offlineRam025 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13952 times:

Since this was obviously pushed by US I think we expect flights to PHX and LAS.


Follow the PAPI in
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5838 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13899 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
DCA and LGA are perfectly capable of handling transcon widebodies

Widebodies, yes (in *very* limited numbers); transcon widebodies, not necessarily.

To make it out of DCA or LGA, with their short runways, a 763 needs to be relatively light. From public data, it's not clear to me that the 763, A or ER, can take off with both a full passenger load *and* enough fuel to make a transcon trip, especially in the winter when such trips can take well over six hours.

Neither the 752 nor the 738 have such issues, and those (along with the occasional, dicier A320) are the aircraft that will operate transcon out of LGA and DCA when Congress does the sensible thing and lifts the perimeter rule.

Widebodies out of LGA and DCA should be used to reduce excess frequency during peak hours on routes to places like ORD and ATL.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 11):
It would be great if VX and UA could serve the route too as I prefer them to AS.

You prefer UA to AS?    UA, to me, represents the bottom of the US airline industry heap.

[Edited 2009-01-09 07:08:02]

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2177 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13851 times:

This is the Senator from Arizona acting in the financial interests of the largest carrier in the state....US Air. Both NYC and WAS areas are well served by their airports and do not need limits released on LGA and DCA.

User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5838 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13831 times:



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
Both NYC and WAS areas are well served by their airports and do not need limits released on LGA and DCA.

Please explain further. As a resident of Washington who often cannot fly out of his airport of choice to his destination of choice despite the fact that it would likely be economically viable, I do not feel well served by my airports.

McCain may be acting on behalf of US, but that doesn't automatically mean that what he's doing isn't also in the public interest. It is.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13810 times:



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 6):
There have been constant rumors that US Airways would like to add some PHX or LAS or LAX flying out of LGA with 757s. To do this they would use some of their slots currently being used by the Express carriers.

If the LGA perimeter rule is abolished, I'd fully expect US to pull out of JFK. US currently has 8 daily flights at JFK (3 PHX, 2 LAS, 3 CLT - 1 mainline/2 RJ), and it would be much easier for them to shift those PHX/LAS flights over to LGA and maybe dumping the CLT flights (keep in mind, prior to the HP merger, US did not fly out of JFK).

The real interesting question is what does AA and UA (and to a lesser extent, DL) do about their JFK-LAX/SFO transcons...


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13759 times:



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
Both NYC and WAS areas are well served by their airports and do not need limits released on LGA and DCA.

New York in particular is not well served at all. The delays in and out of LGA and the other airports in that area are notorious and affect much of the rest of the US. Anything that can help to reduce this congestion would be welcome. These artificial restrictions help nobody.

Sen. McCain's proposal may well help US Airways but it would help other carriers too.

There is no real reason to have these restrictions in place, especially in an area as poorly served as New York.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13735 times:

I would love to see the perimeter rule gone. Personally I prefer EWR for my NYC travel over JFK or LGA because its closer to Lower Manhattan, but I would love to have other options to LGA.

Obviously the airports this will affect the most are JFK and IAD. I wonder who this will affect AA, UA, and DL's transcons from LAX/SFO-JFK. Personally I think (depend on what frequency they are able to operate) we may see flights to JFK cutback a bit and focused on making international connections. I would imagine some flights to IAD from the West Coast would be cut in favor of DCA, but IAD is already an internationally focused hub. So I dont know if it will change all that much.

We might see some cuts from DL, AA, and UA from ATL/ORD/DFW to LGA in favor of some West Coast flights (for the slots), but I doubt very many because these are very O&D heavy markets to LGA.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2177 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13726 times:

The limitations on DCA were placed into effect as an alternative to closing the airfield and moving all traffic to BWI and IAD which was the original intention as I recall from being around back then. DCA was held open under the ruling that it would be perimeter restricted and with a curfew. It is financially imperative for USAir that they be allowed to transition currents slots to within perimeter airports to airports beyond....every other carrier moved that traffic to IAD and BWI and JFK and EWR and have heavily invested in those facilities and reduced slot ownership at both LGA and DCA. The ex presidential candidate's proposal will open several major cans of worms...start with local activists who want DCA closed and air carriers who have obeyed govt edicts and invested into operations at airports other than DCA or LGA and will basically reward USAir with monopoly service from both close in airports due to the amount of slots held.

I wonder how much money Doug Parker and boys have donated to the Senator's campaign lately...  Wink  Wink


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5600 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13679 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
is it really in the US' best interest to be having turboprops and small RJs clogging congested airspace when there is a market for flying 180+ passenger aircraft?

Congress says that it is: thus the Essential Air Services program, which subsidizes inefficiency. We're not talking logic, here; it's politics.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13658 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
The lifting of the perimeter restriction might be a moot point, if the "pier" limits are still in effect.

The last time I routinely dispatched flights in/out of LGA (1982, QH), our brand-new -17R powered B722s with a max takeoff weight of 205,000 lbs. were restricted by the pier limits down to a max of 176,000 lbs. The loss of that 29,000 lbs. would mean less fuel-carrying ability and thus less than maximum range flights. Thngs may have changed since 1982 (likely), but I'm not aware either way (but certainly will be before my current airline starts LGA ops...) Wink

One assumes that would be addressed as well because as you stated, it would be a moot point anyway. Of course, as Benny Hill used to say..."when you assume, you make an ass of you and me"... silly 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13624 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 13):
You prefer UA to AS? UA, to me, represents the bottom of the US airline industry heap.

Actually I do!  duck 

Well, in the air they both serve a very similar experience (though on UA you can always upgrade to E+ for not a whole lot and get much more legroom), but on the ground I have found the AS staff to be rude, uncooperative, and not service oriented. I have yet to have a bad experience with UA, whereas with AS it has been at least 50% negative.

Of course, I prefer to fly VX before both of them!

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 19):
I wonder how much money Doug Parker and boys have donated to the Senator's campaign lately...

I'm not sure why you are so against the idea or why you want to make it into a political favoritism issue. Even if Sen McCain were acting under unethical motives (I highly doubt it) the general public would benefit greatly from the lifting of these bans. This is a very hard time for the industry and if by lifting these restrictions we can increase air travel (or make it more attractive to more people) then why not do it?


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13585 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 4):
I doubt UA and CO will agree with you,

If don't think UA would be against consolidating theri JFK/LGA operations at LGA and operating PS flights out of there to SFO/LAX. Also DCA is one of the few other cities on the east coast that can probably support PS service to the west.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2177 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13549 times:

I agree it is a hard time for the industry......however this proposed legislation favors one carrier far more than others..USAir home base PHX and the senior Senator from AZ is John McCain. The advantage USAir could gain at both LGA and DCA would benefit USAir...take traffic away from the two outer airports...and let USAir set fares where they wish...read that as higher. This does not encourage competition...it will, in effect, reduce it as carriers at the outer airports will not compete and will withdraw and find other markets to go to.

But it's a heck of a try....don't blame USAir for going for it. DL/NW and UA/CO....not much left for Parker and friends...they have to work the edges right now.


User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13491 times:

Me thinks Sen. McCain wants a non-stop DCA-PHX for his commuting purposes!  duck 

25 BA744PHX : There already is nonstop DCA-PHX 3 roundtrip I believe right on on US
26 Ptugarin : I wonder how t his would affect UA and B6 in WAS and NYC respectively, as some transcon traffic will shift to more convenient airports. Also, will UA
27 Manfredj : I always thought the rule was kind of cool. It set DCA apart from the rest of the airports. Most IMPORTANT, however, is it kept the Greyhound crowd to
28 Jetlanta : So West Coast travelers are the Greyhound crowd? Actually, it is higher fares that makes the difference. Don't expect that to change.
29 Tommy767 : I'll bet you would see AA move the LAX-EWR flight to LGA if this passes.
30 Planeguy727 : As a frequent user of both DCA and LGA I welcome the idea. And I don't think it will lead to substantially higher fares (though fares going up a bit m
31 Ocracoke : How many slots that USAirways uses actually belong to USAirways? Methinks that US has a bunch of slots that they lease from other airlines, and if ot
32 AAH732UAL : ATA was able to do LGA-SFO so I would bet that rule is not applicable anymore.
33 Mysterzip : As long as the number of slots remain the same, I'm all for it.
34 Manfredj : Nah, they are everywhere now, east coast, west coast, I don't discriminate. I have fond memories of DCA, I just like the feel of the airport. It was
35 Timz : 7000 ft at OGG-- you remember DL flew a 763 nonstop OGG-ATL for a while, and widebodies were common OGG-ORD, OGG-DFW, OGG-IAH?, OGG-STL?
36 STT757 : No they would move their premium JFK services to LGA, they have the slots. Who heading to/from the City would want to fly to LAX or SFO from JFK if t
37 PanAm747 : The perimeter rule needs to go the way of the dinosaur and die out. It no longer serves any useful purpose other than requiring those of us on the wes
38 Rwy04LGA : I'm not sure, but I believe the perimeter rule is lifted on Saturdays...or is that only to DEN?
39 AAH732UAL : Correct but my response was about the restrictions of thrust and stuff not the actual flight.
40 LAXintl : PS would do awesome at LGA. The current JFK route carries very little international connects and near all NYC local traffic, so LGA would be great. A
41 Cubsrule : FWIW, a similar proposal was introduced in the last Congress, but it didn't go anywhere. Agreed about PHX, but I'm not sure about CLT and LAS. The add
42 OPNLguy : Thanks...
43 WorldTraveler : a high thrust 767 (not necessarily ER) can easily make the 2500 mile trip off a 7000 foot runway. UA might not be far behind if they moved their PS f
44 Timz : A runway-pier strength issue, at LGA. Anybody know what a 767/757 is allowed to weigh there?
45 SPREE34 : Do away with ALL of the restrictions at ALL of the fields. Yes, I mean Dallas Love as well. Just let the companies conduct their business. All governm
46 Cubsrule : If JFK is slot-controlled, though, the total number of flights is unlikely to change (though the number of seats might decrease). That wouldn't have
47 DCAYOW : I trust a SAN-DCA flight should be a high priority! San Diego is the 8th largest GSA (Federal govt) market from DCA overall generating 92 daily pax. I
48 FlyDeltaJets87 : In NYC I doubt UA would care. I'm willing to bet they'd just transfer their LAX/SFO-JFK flights to LGA. CO is the carrier that will be hurt in NYC. I
49 LAXdude1023 : AA still flies DFW-OGG on a 763.
50 WorldTraveler : but some carriers may choose not to operate all of their slots at JFK... someone could take them if they are unused for a period of time but it isn't
51 Cubsrule : No, it's not a given, but the imposition of a slot system indicates that, at least at present, demand exceeds what the infrastructure can support.
52 MasseyBrown : EAS just got renewed in the fall. Congress loves it. Not that many EAS flights go to the most congested airports, though. What giving up the perimete
53 Corinthians : The common theme here is that LGA is the preferred and most convenient airport to use in the NYC area and that JFK is in the hinterlands and would suf
54 YNGguins : Brilliant Idea from a man that would've made a brilliant President... Well maybe not brilliant. He may be on the same end of the spectrum as me, but h
55 Juventus : If it does pass, I'd like to know how many airlines will bid for DCA-LAX, DCA-SFO and LGA-LAX, LGA-SFO????
56 SANFan : I can't believe nobody has mentioned that last year a bill was introduced to open up DCA to any and all domestic routes. It was also introduced by som
57 PSA727 : Senator McCain was one of the key players in getting the exempted beyond-perimeter flights out of DCA earlier in the decade. You can say he's doing th
58 Corinthians : I can’t believe I didn’t comment on the DCA portion, considering I used to live in Maryland. Loudin County in Virginia is one of the fastest growi
59 Post contains links Cubsrule : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3887759/
60 Post contains links SANFan : The search function worked this time! Here's the link to last year's discussion (of the Reagan Perimeter Bill): http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo..
61 Avallillo : Perimeter rules are one thing, the rules of physics are another. As has been pointed out, it is probably not going to be possible to regularly get a w
62 Aircellist : If that perimeter rule was removed, could BA use LGA for its LCY flight?
63 777ER : US already has non stop LAS-DCA flights with B752s, but not sure about LGA
64 Flighty : The demand for transcons out of DCA and LGA is absolutely massive. The Boeing 757-200 do transcons out of DCA or LGA without any real issue. With all
65 SANFan : So sorry Cubsrule; I did it to you TWICE! (When I saw this thread, I tried to scan the posts quickly to see if last year's bill had been mentioned --
66 Post contains images SeaBosDca : AS 738s already fly three transcons a day (1x LAX, 2x SEA) from DCA. They almost never experience any performance issues, any time of year. 757s are
67 Cubsrule : Haha, no worries. One interesting contrast between last year's bill and this one is in how they operate. Last year, the bill permitted carriers to mo
68 STT757 : Which is why New York (upstate) Politicians are not going to support this, they don't want to be pushed out of LGA. How do you figure?.. You think be
69 Flighty : Hang on... allowing new products and services doesn't increase competition? Then what does? It seems to me that enemies of this plan are the ones who
70 Cubsrule : Given the fact that the last (similar) proposal went nowhere, this proposal's supporters need all the help-- from New York's delegation and otherwise
71 STT757 : The New York delegation to Washington is whom I'm referring, not Joe Bruno.
72 Corinthians : You seem st state this as it's a fact. The only fact I see is that airlines are dropping flights out of LGA like hot potatoes. Besides, have you ever
73 Cubsrule : I can't speak for DAL, but MDW is both a better facility than ORD and is more convenient to downtown on public transportation.
74 Saab2000 : I don't think they'd want to. LGA and LCY are not really comparable airports. I've been to both. LCY is really practically in downtown London. LGA is
75 SANFan : Interesting. (BTW, Cubbie, do you have link to the bill itself? Or did I miss that as well?) I can see where there might be some concern from DCA's a
76 Cubsrule : The formatting isn't the best, but here's the text of this year's bill: ...and here's the text of last year's bill
77 GSPSPOT : These restrictions need to go, as does the Wright Amendment!! In other ways, I tend to be more pro-regulation, but here, restricting where airlines ca
78 Saab2000 : Keep in mind, the issues of DCA and LGA are very, very different. The restrictions may have been put in place for the same reason but the airports fac
79 Cubsrule : I disagree, actually. I think the issues are the same. The difference is that DCA has an appropriate pool of available slots, and LGA has too many. S
80 Saab2000 : You are right about the slots. DCA has a manageable number for its airspace. LGA does not for the airspace involved. I have been saying for a couple y
81 Ikramerica : didn't stop the whole love field thing from turning in favor of the airline who didn't comply with the "wishes" of the people for 30 years, only to b
82 SJUSXM : If these rules are eliminated, what new destinations, besides LAX, LAS, PHX, SEA, SFO, and DEN could you see being added? I was thinking maybe LGA-SJU
83 Jfk777 : LGA has no FIS and BA has no infrastructure at LGA, they have their own JFK terminal. BA has said the LCY service will clear FIS in Shannon during re
84 WorldTraveler : here are weights and limits for various models of the 767 showing the MTOW (max takeoff weight) permissible off of a 7000 ft runway at sea level at st
85 STT757 : According to PA figures for 2008 only 15% of JFK travelers took public transportation (Bus/Subway/Train/Supershuttle ride van), 77% arrive by car. Th
86 Max Q : Pier restrictions were probably more of an issue with the 727's landing gear bogie arrangement. With only two wheels per side the old 72 had a higher
87 Spacecadet : I haven't checked the statistics but I would think anyone who was driving from almost anywhere would find JFK the better option. JFK is literally an
88 JA : Let's do the math...40 minutes on the Metro-North Harlem Line & 20 minutes on the 79 Airlink. Oh, and no takeoff line. Compare that to 35-50 minutes
89 Corinthians : I'm looking at the figures you provided me. That's 15% vs. 7% for LGA. Also, a greater percentage of people from CT and even NJ apparently found JFK
90 Mir : I'd bet that UA would love to switch their p.s. flights from JFK to LGA, and also to add DCA p.s. flights. 360,000lbs for a double-tandem like the 76
91 PITrules : Why does this matter? It doesn't to the individual buying the ticket. They care about location. I believe the JFK-LCY sector will be flown nonstop, s
92 STT757 : Get rid of the perimeter rule and those numbers change very quickly, and as for NJ residents preferring JFK over LGA the simple reason being there's
93 Corinthians : I'll believe it when I see it. Until the numbers change, you shouldn't make statements that are obviously wrong and you can't back up.
94 STT757 : The fact of the matter is that most Connecticut and Westchester residents have to drive past LGA to reach JFK, now most do as LGA is limited in the a
95 DCAYOW : I think you misunderstand my statement. This number represents only the number of federal government employees traveling for work between SAN and DCA
96 WorldTraveler : the L1011 does not have a center wheel, is heavier than the 767, and because it is less fuel efficient, weighs more on takeoff. Fuel efficiency is re
97 Corinthians : And the fact of the matter is that CT residents (I'll give you Westchester) are currently driving past LGA to get to JFK. Brooklyn and Queens residen
98 USAirALB : If such a thing does happen, I can see US applying for DCA-LON . IDK if DCA has customs.us Could op on a 757.
99 Cubsrule : There's a lot of LGA flying to smaller markets that is not EAS-supported. Routes to cities like ILM, MHT, and BTV have no government support.
100 Panova98 : Great discussion! Interesting that the senator from Arizona wants to decide on something, located not in the State he represents, but for the people o
101 SeaBosDca : All those other restrictions are at least nominally in the public interest. I have yet to see an intelligible argument of why a perimeter rule is in
102 Par13del : Woud this be an alternative to the FAA slot auction at JFK to reduce congestion? Except that airline kept its base there and built its business into
103 Corinthians : The court stopped the slot auction plan. The proposal would have affected all three airports. It wouldn't have done anything to reduce congestion; it
104 LTBEWR : LGA serves a lot of smaller markets flights not covered by JFK for connections to long distance flights. DCA business flyers and politicans like the c
105 PlanesNTrains : While everything you say may be accurate today, it is based on a restricted LGA. The airlines must base their planning and investments on what exists
106 GXMan : National is my hometown airport and I would love to see the perimeter rule lifted. I traveled back and forth to SFO for three months in 2008, I would
107 Cubsrule : They could file a lawsuit. Anyone can file a lawsuit. They'd get laughed out of court, though. The only way airlines will get the perimeter rule lift
108 Flyingcat : Not possible, DCA does not have customs, only preclerance for Canada flights and other areas that handle preclearance. Mostly Caribbean.
109 Corinthians : There is a reason why EWR and JFK are more flexible with their operations and it isn't all dealing with the perimeter rule. EWR and JFK are simply bi
110 USAirALB : I know, but they could be built easily, depends is US wants to fund em
111 HAMAD : Us airways operate flights between DCA and phoenix according to their website and have been for years, way before america west merged with them. i ch
112 Post contains links Timz : Just checking a couple of US timetables at http://airlinetimetables.net I don't see that-- when was it?
113 DeltaL1011man : Glen has said before (when asked by someone at the LAX base) If DL could would they start LAX-LGA/DCA and he said as soon as they open LGA/DCA up the
114 United1 : America West started those routes and held the perimeter slot exemptions for them. USAirways was never successful at getting perimeter exemption slot
115 Post contains links BA744PHX : started in 2000 http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2000/07/03/daily30.html
116 IgneousRocks : I hope this happens.... Both San Antonio and Austin will almost certainly be potential nonstop markets to/from DCA with military (SAT) and government
117 DCAYOW : However, it does open interesting route possibilities between DCA and DUB (DUB will get CBP and Customs pre-clearance in 2010 I believe). The only qu
118 Viscount724 : As far as I know, BA will be clearing both immigration and customs during the SNN stop.
119 Cubsrule : In that case, I can't think of anything official stopping them, though I'm not especially well-versed in the 318's performance ex-LGA.
120 Post contains links Mariner : It is my understanding - could be wrong - that the SNN stop will only apply westbound. Eastbound - NYC-LCY - the flights will be non-stop: http://www
121 Cubsrule : That's my understanding as well. The only limiting factor-- and it's the one where I'm not well-versed-- is runway performance ex-LGA. Obviously, LGA
122 Flighty : Definitely. Well, if you are saying US operated their own PHX flights, definitely no. That was America West. US operates them because they merged wit
123 FFlyer : Could DL use the Marine Air Terminal for those transcon flights? Can 757's or 767's use the gates there? That would be a very exclusive transcon prod
124 FFlyer : Maybe that was because they haven't seen the LGA perimeter rule to be lifted.
125 FFlyer : The Airtrain as it is today, is a joke. Well, it takes me to the long term parking lot, so it can be used for something. But to build a new expensive
126 PlanesNTrains : Which was my point as well. I guess it will remain to be seen, but if LGA is a convenient airport for a fair number of folks, I can't see any reason
127 Aerokiwi : What bizzare logic! Arguably, US has been handicapped for years becasuse of this rule. And if pax flock to DCA, wouldn't that suggestt hatflights fro
128 Mariner : Ah - there you've got me. I am not technically minded. It is always dangerous to make assumptions, but given the BA statements, I assume that they ha
129 Cubsrule : Of course, though, they likely investigated under the assumption that, regardless of whether the aircraft could do it, LGA would not be an option bec
130 Corinthians : Ummm...what about the Airtrain at Jamaica Station? I don't know the people you know, but there are plenty I know who have used the Airtrain at Jamaic
131 GXMan : Actually, the current rule only allowing limited flights beyond the perimeter benefits those carriers who have the monopoly, USAir to PHX, LAS; Alask
132 Mariner : Maybe I'm missing your point - UA does not have a monopoly on DCA-DEN. mariner
133 GXMan : I'm sorry, you are right. I forgot Frontier. I was speaking more to the poster who claimed that this would only benefit USAir, take away flights from
134 PPVRA : Just freakin' privatize LGA. Don't lease it out, sell it outright. If the airport is still worth anything (I think it is) it'll be kept, otherwise a d
135 LACA773 : Is it safe to say AS does extremely well with their single DCA-LAX & DCA-SEA flights? They must run with high load factors with the exception of possi
136 Cubsrule : The whole slot regime at JFK is sort of up in the air right now. Presumably, though, they'll lose the slots if they don't use them. As long as UA cou
137 SeaBosDca : DCA-SEA is 2x daily, not 1x. DCA-SEA is very, very successful -- by far the best of AS's transcons. Part of the reason is that there is a huge amount
138 MAH4546 : AA, US and UA would start those routes ASAP, too. It would be bloodbath, though AA and UA would be at an advantage in the NYC-area and UA and US woul
139 KGAIflyer : Alaska's LAX-DCA flights are now listed as DL codeshares. That should increase loads, 'relatively'.
140 Rampart : Why would US and DL be at a disadvantage in NYC? Both have sizeable presence and notability? I can see AA and DL being at small disadvantages in the
141 Atomsareenough : i've taken it several times.[shrug] it's a pain to get to LGA without a car, and taxis from manhattan cost several times more than the subway/airtrai
142 Rampart : Used to be taking the M61 bus from Manhattan would get you to LGA easier than getting to JFK, a straight shot without making changes. But, you were a
143 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : This cracks me up....Have you seen LGA at rush hour? Why..just leave it as is.
144 Corinthians : Exactly. Ever driven on the GCP during rush hour? Traffic sucks!
145 STT757 : AA and UA have the premium traffic between NYC and LAX, SFO pretty much locked up. Moving their premium trans-con offerings from JFK to LGA only swee
146 Rwy04LGA : US and DL/NW each have their own terminals. Both are fairly pleasant They could branch off the N train and run along the GCP (AirTrain-style) right i
147 Corinthians : How would it be "sweeter" for AA if they move to that dump of a terminal? Explain that one. Seriously, in all the NYC related aviation posts, you see
148 HAMAD : ok, i didnt say that US airways operated it before the merger, i meant America west operated it, and continued after the merger.... their website stil
149 STT757 : What they give up in amenities the make up for in convenience.
150 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : The highway is a disgrace anyway (GCP)...a thin lined easy profile monorail would be perfect and it could loop into LaGuardia using the N train junct
151 Corinthians : You honestly think they'd give up a brand new billion dollar terminal for a decrepit 30 year-old building that's only a few miles closer to Manhattan
152 Apodino : I was thinking, US has stated in the past that if the perimeter rules were abolished they would consider transcons into LGA from LAX and SFO. They hav
153 DCA-ROCguy : Another favorite Airliners.net chestnut, the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA. No time to read the entire discussion, as it's all been hashed repeatedly
154 Flighty : Pathetic, that service. ATL, MSP, DFW do have rail to city center, too. PHX's new system almost goes to the airport but you need to ride a shuttle. P
155 Atomsareenough : Wow, only 25 minutes! I've never even thought to take LIRR. That's so much better. I just looked it up, and it's about $10. You can't beat that.
156 MAH4546 : A simple check of their control of the NYC-LA/SF market. US is non-existant; and DL commands a fare premium over only JetBlue. UA and AA command sign
157 Timz : Depending which terminal you're at, figure 12-15 minutes on the Airtrain to Jamaica, then whatever wait at Jamaica, then around 22 minutes to NY Penn
158 Aviateur : No, it'll just fracture the market, meaning more planes carrying fewer people (each), meaning yet more congestion. PS
159 MasseyBrown : CLE also has rail right into the terminal. MIA is one of the *almost* airports, with a shuttle bus to a Tri-Rail station.
160 Corinthians : Doesn't LA's subway go to LAX? Or at least close to it? I heard that they weren't allowed to build it all the way to the airport because the car renta
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