Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Indonesia's Lion Air Leases 2 B744s To Start JED  
User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

Lion Air said it will use two Boeing 747-400 aircraft to service flights between Jakarta and Jeddah starting June.

Lion Air general director Edward Sirait said the airline secured the two aircraft, formerly belonging to Singapore Airlines, which had sold them to another airline.

He said Lion planned to service flights to other cities in the Middle East starting March 2010, targeting Indonesian workers as passengers.

Lion Air secured the license to fly to Saudi Arabia and it will be the first Indonesian private airline to fly to the Middle East where Indonesia has many workers including housemaids.

More at Asia Pulse via COMTEX via TradingMarkets.com.



So I'm guessing the B744s came from Oasis Airlines?


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12876 posts, RR: 100
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8766 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm betting 744 lease rates are pretty attractive right now.  Wink

Interesting launch market that does make sense.

form the link (which is annoyingly full of advertisements that blink far too much):

Quote:
targeting Indonesian workers as passengers.

11 across with 30" pitch?  crowded 

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3429 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

from a fleet of 737s and MDs, a 744 is a massive jump. Are these 2 going to be the only 2 long haul a/c in its fleet or will they be adding other types eventually to go long haul? A350? 787? 748i? A380?

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8686 times:

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me!

Can anyone remember Indonesian Airlines and their grand plans with the 747?


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8625 times:



Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 3):
Can anyone remember Indonesian Airlines and their grand plans with the 747?

I remember! LOL! Coz no one in the industry at the time believed me saying they'd fold within 12 months as a result (oh yeah, and the 20 exDL 727s they ordered)

Anyways, back to Lion...

Yes, sources inside Lion has said they're getting 2 ex Oasis... at what stage are they on the deal, no one knows.

It may sound good, but all those who knows the dealing and squealing in the "housemaid route" to Saudi Arabia knows, that the difference between making a lot and loosing a lot in those markets are paper thin.

This is an airline that is alleged to have shaved off thousands of hours from at least several of its MD fleets, alleged to have defaulted on 2 factory fresh 739ERs but is instead looking for used 739ERs, and had its publicized "return to full cabin service" delayed by at least 6 months... and is reported to have asked its crew to exceed the regulated 1050 flying hours in a year just last month...

On the 3rd of January, I heard of 1 737CL making a hard landing at WIOO, and 1 MD90 having its nosewheel leaving the paved surface while making a 180 at WAMG... which would make it at least the 3rd time it has happened (why on earth do they keep sending the MD90s there into a tight squeeze, I dunno).

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineSQ_EK_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1633 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8575 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 4):
It may sound good, but all those who knows the dealing and squealing in the "housemaid route" to Saudi Arabia knows, that the difference between making a lot and loosing a lot in those markets are paper thin.

What is the current preferred "housemaid route" between the Middle East and Indonesia? KU/QR/EK through KWI/DOH/DXB, or CX/TG/SQ/MH via HKG/BKK/SIN/KUL? Do either SV or EY or GF currently serve CGK? I find it odd that GA doesn't serve the Middle East at all, given the sheer volume of traffic, and though the yields aren't there, GA are hardly a premium carrier by any stretch of the word anyway...

IIRC, QR also serves DPS through SIN, though that would mostly be a tourist route (and probably pretty low yielding as well)...



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10638 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8523 times:



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Thread starter):
So I'm guessing the B744s came from Oasis Airlines?

I guess its not hard to guess.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
I'm betting 744 lease rates are pretty attractive right now.

The two ex-Oasis, ex SQ 744s were SQs oldest, from 1989. So the lease rates wont be high, and probably the contract conditions rather comfortable. Probably worth a try, as Lion Air will not depend on this small operation. Arent there many Indonesians flying to the holy places in Saudi Arabia even out of the Hadj season, not just housemaids and workers?


User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8425 times:



Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 5):
I find it odd that GA doesn't serve the Middle East at all

Incorrect.

GA 984
CGK 7:55 AM
JED 1:30 PM
744
Su,M,T,W,Th



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineDJ748 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8213 times:

In light of their massive backlog for their 737-900ER's (total of almost 170), I'm picturing a massive order for 747-8's here, but I doubt if they would order it. Or maybe they would....funny things have happened.

User currently offlineQF744ER From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8207 times:

Good luck to them any carrier bringing B744's out of the desert has my support.

NA, suprisingly the hours on those ex SQ pair weren't that bad..high 60,000 which is reasonable compared to aircraft their age.

That said I did see a pic somewhere of one of them being tugged around VCV recently taken in Nov 08 with the caption 'being prepared for another operator', it was N465BB.


User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6582 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8165 times:

Another 744, N263SG also ex-Oasis was recently ferried from Victorville to Marana I assume for activation. Could this be for Lion?

User currently offlineAfterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8147 times:



Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 5):
What is the current preferred "housemaid route" between the Middle East and Indonesia? KU/QR/EK through KWI/DOH/DXB, or CX/TG/SQ/MH via HKG/BKK/SIN/KUL? Do either SV or EY or GF currently serve CGK?

AFAIK most of the workers use middle-eastern carriers. SV and EY are serving CGK. GF used to.


User currently offlineQF744ER From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8130 times:

CX,

If the 2nd paragraph in the original post is correct it's gotta be N240BA ex B-LFA and N465BB ex B-LFB.

N263SG is ex ANA originally.

Tom/PER


User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2957 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8105 times:



Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 5):
IIRC, QR also serves DPS through SIN, though that would mostly be a tourist route (and probably pretty low yielding as well)...

DPS is served via KUL. CGK is served via SIN. QR has 5th rights between KUL-DPS; SIN-CGK.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineQF744ER From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8105 times:

CX,

Just checked the 2 B744's I referred too are still shown as 'available lease/sale immediate delivery' whereas N263SG ex B-LFC and N322SG ex B-LFD don't appear on anywhere of the market sites.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1238 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8085 times:

Lionair, that is one interesting company with a massive order of airplanes. I hope they plan to get into leasing or expect that they will be able to sell their productionspots because I would be surprised if they even took 50% of what they have on order.
It has got to be one of the most risky orders out there.
on the other hand, Boeing laughs all the way to the bank as long as deposits are made it wont matter to them if the order get cancelled or deferred.

I do however remember that about this date last year Lionair proudly announced that they would base 6 737-9 in Australia before year end. What happened to the 6 aircraft's that were supposed to be in traffic in Australia by now?
I assume they haven't started the operation and i assume the plan of letting Lionair handle the management will come to nothing.

4 aircraft's were to be stationed in Thailand as well if my memory serves me correct. Not sure when that operation were planned to start though.

Now the plan to serve Saudi with 747 makes more sense than their orders. However the yield on such a route must be horrendous.
I also imagine that the wealthy Indonesians will stay away from Lionair and opt for Singapore or one of the arabian carriers if they fly the route.
Well I wish them luck, anyone that brings 747 from the desert into service has my full support.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineJetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8078 times:

No way Lion can sustain 744 in their fleet, other than on a short term wet lease basis.I wont publicly forecast Lion's future, but you can draw your own conclusions


Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8013 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 6):
Arent there many Indonesians flying to the holy places in Saudi Arabia even out of the Hadj season, not just housemaids and workers?

Some of EK's flights are just full of workers and housemaids...
Religious tourism to Saudi Arabia outside Hajj season is also Quota-ed. So there's a cap to how many can go... so the yields are limited given the competition out there!

Plus, they can't rely on the numerous govt. officials going back and forth to Saudi.. coz they're on a GA first anything else second policy on routes/city pairs served by Garuda...

Quoting DJ748 (Reply 8):
In light of their massive backlog for their 737-900ER's (total of almost 170), I'm picturing a massive order for 747-8's here, but I doubt if they would order it. Or maybe they would....funny things have happened.

They're already "struggling" to pay the 739ER deliveries... and their yields are down like mad from what I've seen on the reservations (comparative to other airlines).

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
Lionair, that is one interesting company with a massive order of airplanes. I hope they plan to get into leasing or expect that they will be able to sell their productionspots because I would be surprised if they even took 50% of what they have on order.

They haven't reached 25% and they defaulted 2, and the CEO has decided to look for parked 739ERs around instead of meeting their delivery schedules and payments.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
on the other hand, Boeing laughs all the way to the bank as long as deposits are made it wont matter to them if the order get cancelled or deferred.

Boeing, I hear, is worried. If the largest customer for the type crashes it or defaults, it doesn't look good... (they've banged about 6 of them, with few requiring "significant structural repairs" I am told).

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
I do however remember that about this date last year Lionair proudly announced that they would base 6 737-9 in Australia before year end. What happened to the 6 aircraft's that were supposed to be in traffic in Australia by now?

It has been quietly forgotten! So has their publicised return to being a full service carrier (with the claim of NO MORE LOW COST SERVICE ON LION)...

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 16):
I wont publicly forecast Lion's future, but you can draw your own conclusions

Anything to do with the 2 defaults, and the bank now having people sitting on the HQ to make sure the money doesn't get siphoned off somewhere?

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1238 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7956 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 17):
Anything to do with the 2 defaults, and the bank now having people sitting on the HQ to make sure the money doesn't get siphoned off somewhere?

Somehow the aviation scene is always full of more action in Indonesia.
I miss the Indonesian aviation threads.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7925 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 4):
It may sound good, but all those who knows the dealing and squealing in the "housemaid route" to Saudi Arabia knows, that the difference between making a lot and loosing a lot in those markets are paper thin.

I was on a committee with a guy from SEKKAb (??spelling) back in 1990 and he wanted that trade shut down then. Does not seem to have happened. From a couple of flights back from Dharhan on SQ I rather wonder how much any of the pembantu (maids) actually make. Most seemed to have been dropped off at the airport with about USD100 for their two years and trouble, although I noticed a few of them seemed to have "gifts in kind".

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 18):
Somehow the aviation scene is always full of more action in Indonesia.

True but WADR most of the action on the servants could be done without.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7900 times:



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 15):
I do however remember that about this date last year Lionair proudly announced that they would base 6 737-9 in Australia before year end.

The list of announcements without any follow up by this airline near endless. Apart the Australia and Thailand joint ventures, another 2008 announcement pertaining to the B739 fleet was a subfleet of business class only aircraft. Yet again something nothing has ever been heard about.

The yields of JED and RUH flights on GA are not as bad as one would expect. In fact, yields on these Middle Eastern routes blows those on routes such as CGK PEK, CGK PER or even DPS KIX out of the water. Yet it is unlikely that Lion would ever be able to attract that kind of top level religous tourism market.

As for the plan itself, I really doubt that it will ever materialize. I see this announcement more as a reply to Garuda's recent announcement about 18 planned routes for this new year.

After the shut down of Adam Air, Indonesian carriers have enjoyed a period of relative quiet with higher fares because of reduced seat supply, but at this point that capacity has been filled up and yields are again under pressure. In fact, a lot of domestic routes are just about hanging in there because of very considerable fuel surcharges that continue to be charged despite recent development in the oil price. So far, only Air Asia has done away with these charges, and if and when other airlines are forced to do the same, they will not be able to survive on the current domestic market fares.

As for Lion, I believe the B739 deliveries, that were announced with so much fanfare, are soon to come to a crushing halt and the airline's relationship with Boeing is about to turn sour as, in true Indonesian fashion, the company will certainly find a way to blame Boeing for a number of perceived mistakes.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7838 times:

HB-IWC, let's not forget the Lebaran debacle on Lion Air's yields... putting up max econ fares from far away, with no wait list for lower subclass... only to have the harsh wake up call when they had to idle at least 3 aircraft during the busy lebaran week and reduced schedules on some other planes... why? Why pay that much for nothing on board (yes, nothing) for the same price as Garuda, when Garuda gives you a meal, and all other airlines provide a snack, and with cases of Garuda and other airlines selling lower fares nearer the day...

On the quiet days, I saw GA was still relatively full, and the other airlines were able to attract the mid economy fares, while Lion was sitting at dead bottom econopromo fares... this was on some fares though... The other airlines allowing lower subclass waiting list saved their bacon...

In the first quiet week this year, I've seen the prices on the other airlines higher than Lion... now that says something... at least it means lots of brand new empty seats on the 739ERs...

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 18):
Somehow the aviation scene is always full of more action in Indonesia.
I miss the Indonesian aviation threads.

It's always dead quiet on the public scene here. I'll probably do a 2009 thread #1... with a recap of 2008...

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
In fact, yields on these Middle Eastern routes blows those on routes such as CGK PEK, CGK PER or even DPS KIX out of the water.

And aren't those the real dismal routes? (apart from that BKK overnight rotation),,,

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7764 times:



Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 5):
Do either SV or EY or GF currently serve CGK? I find it odd that GA doesn't serve the Middle East at all, given the sheer volume of traffic, and though the yields aren't there, GA are hardly a premium carrier by any stretch of the word anyway...

GA and SV serves non-stop to CGK from JED


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Estonian Air Got Permission To Start LED posted Wed Mar 28 2007 10:09:02 by Traveler_7
Air India Likely To Start 3rd Service To New York posted Fri Jul 29 2005 20:33:02 by Mrniji
Air Canada Rumoured To Start YYZ-LIS Service posted Thu Apr 14 2005 06:16:21 by RicardoFG
Air Plus Comet To Start Flights To Colombia posted Fri Jun 25 2004 20:33:37 by RCS763av
Air Plus Comet To Start Montreal-Madrid Flight? posted Tue May 4 2004 22:55:10 by Noise
Air Tahiti Nui To Start New York To Papeete Flight posted Mon Apr 26 2004 20:56:34 by Aeri28
Indonesia's Lion Air Launch Taipei/Seoul Service posted Mon Oct 22 2001 06:11:23 by Jiml1126
Vision Air To Start Service To Youngstown, OH Kyng posted Thu Oct 16 2008 03:47:40 by YNGguins
2008 Reno Air Races Off To Bad Start posted Sat Sep 6 2008 16:51:16 by Reno757
Myrtle Beach Direct Air To Start TOL Service posted Thu Sep 4 2008 21:40:07 by FlyCMH
Arik Air Looks Set To Start LOS - JFK posted Mon Sep 14 2009 18:29:52 by Ssublyme
Air China - Likely To Start Service To DEN posted Thu May 24 2007 16:40:47 by DIA
Estonian Air Got Permission To Start LED posted Wed Mar 28 2007 10:09:02 by Traveler_7
Air India Likely To Start 3rd Service To New York posted Fri Jul 29 2005 20:33:02 by Mrniji
Air Canada Rumoured To Start YYZ-LIS Service posted Thu Apr 14 2005 06:16:21 by RicardoFG
Air Plus Comet To Start Flights To Colombia posted Fri Jun 25 2004 20:33:37 by RCS763av
Air Plus Comet To Start Montreal-Madrid Flight? posted Tue May 4 2004 22:55:10 by Noise
Air Tahiti Nui To Start New York To Papeete Flight posted Mon Apr 26 2004 20:56:34 by Aeri28
Indonesia's Lion Air Launch Taipei/Seoul Service posted Mon Oct 22 2001 06:11:23 by Jiml1126
Air China - Likely To Start Service To DEN posted Thu May 24 2007 16:40:47 by DIA
Estonian Air Got Permission To Start LED posted Wed Mar 28 2007 10:09:02 by Traveler_7
Air India Likely To Start 3rd Service To New York posted Fri Jul 29 2005 20:33:02 by Mrniji
Air Canada Rumoured To Start YYZ-LIS Service posted Thu Apr 14 2005 06:16:21 by RicardoFG
Air Plus Comet To Start Flights To Colombia posted Fri Jun 25 2004 20:33:37 by RCS763av
Air Plus Comet To Start Montreal-Madrid Flight? posted Tue May 4 2004 22:55:10 by Noise
Air Tahiti Nui To Start New York To Papeete Flight posted Mon Apr 26 2004 20:56:34 by Aeri28
Indonesia's Lion Air Launch Taipei/Seoul Service posted Mon Oct 22 2001 06:11:23 by Jiml1126