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Eclipse Auction?  
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

So Eclipse aviation is to be auctioned off on the 14th of january,
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D95D2NNO0.htm
I wonder if they restart the production of the E400?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Nooooooooo! Sad day.

User currently offlineMrSkyGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2981 times:

"On 14 January 2009 a Maryland bankruptcy court will hold an auction of the assets of Eclipse Aviation. A Luxembourg-based subsidiary of ETIRC Aviation, which is owned by Eclipse's Chairman of the Board Roel Pieper, has announced that it intends to buy Eclipse for USD$198M, however there are indications that other companies will bid on the assets as well. Former President and CEO Vern Raburn has stated that he will not be bidding for the company's assets."

I truly hope this isn't the end of an aviation pioneer. Aerospace is a tricky business no matter what side of the fence you are on. Eclipse pushed the envelope, faced its share of problems, and is paying the price for it. I certainly hope this isn't the end of the road!



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Isn't it kinf of odd that the court hearing will be in Delaware and not New Mexico where it is located? I can gurantee the state of New Mexico and the ity of Albuquerque will be very interested in the proceedings, because of all the money they have invested in Eclipse.


I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2875 times:



Quoting B727LVR (Reply 3):
Isn't it kinf of odd that the court hearing will be in Delaware and not New Mexico where it is located?

Not really, because Eclipse Aviation Corporation is a Delaware Corporation (Quite a few companies are incorporated in Delaware because the state is corporate haven, which very business friendly laws.). Just because a company is based in a state does not necessarily mean that if they file for bankruptcy, they'll file in that state. When Delta (Who is also a Delaware Corporation) filed for CH. 11, they filed in New York, not Georgia. Delaware may have been the best place for Eclipse to file for bankruptcy.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

MrSkyGuy, I don´t think so, there´s biz to look after the sold and delivered aircrafts, +200
and I´m sure the E400 will be made, but it´ll be in Russia.


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1896 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2737 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 5):
MrSkyGuy, I don´t think so, there´s biz to look after the sold and delivered aircrafts, +200

About 240, to be more precise.

I'm not sure how's this going to end. If somebody buys Eclipse, what's going to happen then?



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

They probably will remove all assets and move it elsewhere. The money they pay will be distributed among those whom old company owns money, probably getting a few procentage of their claims.

User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2238 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2671 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):
They probably will remove all assets and move it elsewhere. The money they pay will be distributed among those whom old company owns money, probably getting a few procentage of their claims.

Have a funny feeling that it'll end up in a "desert" somewhere in the Middle East... Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Qatar...



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2655 times:

Doubt it, Eclipse had talks with Russian investor to start a production line in Russia before the bankruptcy. It´s basically those who are the only known bidders.

User currently offlineMrSkyGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2582 times:

Russia is planting many of these sorts of deals throughout the western business world, and you know what? I applaud them for it. Labor is cheaper and plentiful, and Russians are fantastic engineers.

If Eclipse truly does end up in Russia, I hope it will help them control costs better than the American operation.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

I was just watching the news here in ABQ, and they said that the Auction was cancelled because no one submitted a qualified bid. Here is the link:

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/busines...pse_off_auction_block_200901131912


Looks like they will be sold to ETIRC if no-one else wants it.



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

As expected then, move to Russia is obvious.

User currently offlineSkymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 533 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2098 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
As expected then, move to Russia is obvious

Maybe not so quickly!
Anybody who has had to work with Export Licenses can tell you that the Department of State or Deprarment of Defence may block some of the technology transfer. Some years ago it took us 6 months of paper work to export a single computer terminal with a 8085 8 bit processor in it!



I love to fly, and it shows!
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1994 times:
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Quoting MrSkyGuy (Reply 10):

If Eclipse truly does end up in Russia, I hope it will help them control costs better than the American operation.

I hope they can engineer anti-lock breaks.  Wink

But as Skymiler notes, export control regs could be fun...

Costs do need to go down. The plane is priced too close to the Mustang/Phenom for the difference in capabilities... It needs to clearly be in its own market segment to make any money.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

So it was sold for 28 MUS$ and co-share offer worth 160 MUS$.
I wonder what P&W thinks, the PW610F engine is only used on the EA500, will
they revoke the licens on it?


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1814 times:
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Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
I wonder what P&W thinks, the PW610F engine is only used on the EA500, will
they revoke the licens on it?

That engine is very related to the Mustang and Phenom engines. While they will lose money on it, it helped launch a new line that still has potential.

Why would they revoke the license? Pratt might change the terms of the engine sales, but selling an already developed engine to whomever makes the E500 only makes sense to me.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Well, including spare parts for the +200 EA500 already flying, only reason I can think of is that they want EA500 out of the picture and open up the market for the others?
PW610F seem to have been sold for 210K US$ to Eclipse, people claim that was low.


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1896 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1701 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
So it was sold for 28 MUS$ and co-share offer worth 160 MUS$.
I wonder what P&W thinks, the PW610F engine is only used on the EA500, will
they revoke the licens on it?

I'm still battling to understand this whole deal. Are these good news? What will happen to the production and deliveries of the promised aircraft?

Thanks

EP



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1675 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 18):
I'm still battling to understand this whole deal. Are these good news?

Good to whom?

It is good news to the company Eclipse Jet Aviation that was formed by previous Eclipse investors to buy the company's assets free and clear, with no other bidders, and no seriously adverse ruling from the courts.

It is not good news for the creditors, which got about $3c on the $ (secured creditors) or ZERO (unsecured creditors).

It is too early to determine if it is good news for the EA500 250+ owners, as the terms under which their aircraft will be upgraded to final spec ($100K-$300K a piece probably) and supported going forward are not well spelled out.

It is bad news to depositors that will only get a coupon for their hard cash deposits, entitling them to buy a plane at a higher price than contracted.

It is probably good news for suppliers, in that they have clarity on contracts, can clear their books and wait to see if new planes would be produced.

I'd say there is a fair chance that Eclipse Jet will soldier one for a few years upgrading/servicing the existing fleet at high prices and maybe building 50 planes or so per year.

But still too early to tell. We need to wait another 6 months or so till Eclipse Jet shows its hand.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 1567 times:



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 19):


It is not good news for the creditors, which got about $3c on the $ (secured creditors) or ZERO (unsecured creditors).

It is too early to determine if it is good news for the EA500 250+ owners, as the terms under which their aircraft will be upgraded to final spec ($100K-$300K a piece probably) and supported going forward are not well spelled out.

It is bad news to depositors that will only get a coupon for their hard cash deposits, entitling them to buy a plane at a higher price than contracted.


.

´

If understand things right the depositors for the EA400 is in a better state than the EA500.
Seem like the EA400 project is being canned and those depositors get the money back?


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1896 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1432 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):
If understand things right the depositors for the EA400 is in a better state than the EA500.
Seem like the EA400 project is being canned and those depositors get the money back?

Good news then, because the EA400 will never stand a chance of surviving in the market as it is. Especially when Eclipse has not yet managed how to build these aircraft efficiently and deliver all the features they have promissed.

In other threads I heavily blamed Eclipse for coming up with a new aircraft project when the EA500 was not even close to what they were expecting! Now you see the results.

I hope the EA500s they were to deliver are still on schedule (even though January deliveries are unheard of!). Moreover, I HOPE the people who put their money into thiis aircraft can at least get something out of it!



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

797, personally I think it´s better to buy a 2nd hand EA500 (many on the market now) than throw more money after the money you already lost, if you really want an Eclipse.
Well, I hope they sell off the EA400 design, but currently I can´t see any buyers.


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1896 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1369 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 22):
797, personally I think it´s better to buy a 2nd hand EA500 (many on the market now) than throw more money after the money you already lost, if you really want an Eclipse.

Well, Alessandro, I don't think anyone is going to buy a second hand EA500 when there are only 250+ on the market. The main preocupation right now is the large amount of customers who are waiting to receive their EA500. I can speak with property that customers who were due to receive their plane on January have not heard a thing from any Eclipse representative in more than two months.

On the one hand, this may be reassuring, as these people don't want to receive bad news (I believe it's better to be in the clouds than under the rocks). On the other hand, it's a situation capable of creating a handful of ulcers! A couple months ago Eclipse announced that they had enough resources to finalize the production of the aircraft that were due on January. From then on, the new owner would be the responsible of the production. I have not heard anything on this matter.

What are your thoughts?



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

If you read the Eclipse critic page, the new owners seem to want additional 1,3 million US$ from each customer to complete the ordered airframes, for the same amount you can get a
2nd hand EA500 today!
http://www.eclipsecriticng.blogspot.com/

[Edited 2009-01-27 14:57:34]

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1333 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
If you read the Eclipse critic page, the new owners seem to want additional 1,3 million US$ from each customer to complete the ordered airframes, for the same amount you can get a

Yup, substantially more than what they already paid when the aircraft were promised at around $800,000 a pop. Depositors got shafted...royally. We don't even know when Eclipse will deliver the 1st COMPLETE airframe let alone when they'll complete the 250+ incomplete jets flying around with owners that would rather sell them off instead of shelling out another few 100g's to get those now unpromised upgrades.

Eclipse has left a lot of folks bloodied in their wake. And the madness is going to continue now with EclipseJet Aviation. Fantastic. For a jet as non-capable as its competitors yet just as expensive, how do they expect to make any money in such a credit market?

Novel idea...poor execution. At least, Cessna, Cirrus, Embraer, Diamond, etc have better project management.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

[Edited 2009-01-27 15:54:04]

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