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TG To Change LAX Ops From A345 To B772  
User currently offlineThaiA345 From Indonesia, joined Oct 2006, 860 posts, RR: 16
Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8620 times:

Hi Guys,

Was going through TG's website and noticed that towards the middle of 2009 and onwards, B772/3 aircraft will be operating the route via a tech stop in KIX.

Does anyone know why this is so? I guess its due to pure economics, and I guess it will be the older generation lie flats as only the B772ER has the 2nd Gen lie flats, whereas the aircraft icon used on TG's web is B772/3

Any further info greatly appreciated!

Cheers

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8570 times:

Um..I guess this is the old story which was mentioned here many times.

Anyhow, TG will utilize B777-200ER (HS-TJR/S/T/U/V/W) for BKK-KIX-LAX starting summer 2009. They want to get rid of their A340-500s real fast but impossible.

Because TG uses code 777 in Amadeus to identify their 777-200ERs, hence, when you check on TG web-site it shows 777-200/300 as per Amadeus own meaning.

Well, personally, I don't think TG high-level management people want to get rid of A340-500s from the fleet, since the aircraft is equipped with 60 Royal Silk seats, it means that their family has better chance of flying silk along with them anytime. Maybe the reason they want to get it of A340-500s is that there is no First class  Wink Well, just my thoughts.



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8481 times:
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Simply put the economics of ULH don't seem to work.

Sure the engineering allows it but the economics fail it and this is not the first to revert to a one stop service, especially between Asia and North America.

ULH COSTS
1. Two crews tied up for entire flight- both need resting at end
2. Tankering of fuel -both cost and weight for flights in excess of 14 hours
3. Reduction of freight footage as a result of point 2 above.
4. Loss of addition revenue streams available at en-route points.
5. An additional flight with smaller aircraft may be necessary to that once en-route destination with all its associated costs or just as likely that route becomes inviable and is lost to the network. (An obvious point for this would be Anchorage for instance -Once had near daily connections to European Cities -Now none!)
6. Passenger comfort (especially at back of plane). Either increase pitch and loose revenue or actually follow Singapore a strip it out entirely which actually seems to have worked for their A345 planes.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7523 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8048 times:

I suppose that the worst that could happen is that TG refits is A345s with F-J-Y or J-Y without the overly generous seat pitch they offer in Y and premium-Y, and start using those planes for flights to Europe or something where there is a lot of demand for cargo. After all, other carriers also use A345s in routes that are not necessarily ULH, such as JJ's flights to Europe.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5830 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7964 times:
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Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 2):
Simply put the economics of ULH don't seem to work.

Try telling that to EK, QR and AI.

I believe the 777-200LR is better fitted to do ULH than the A345 with more economical cabin layout. However, neither SQ or TG have 777-200LR's to do this job.


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7914 times:
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Are yes Mid-East -West Coast and the Houston oil shuttles on the B772LR maybe so !

As for Air India I'm not so sure. They continue to route daily flights through European (Frankfurt/London and Paris) and in addition to the Delhi/Mumbai-JFK routes don't they.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24320 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7915 times:

Cant say TG is afraid of variety -- we've had 743-MD-11-744-A345 and soon 777 serve LAX


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5830 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7880 times:
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Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 5):
As for Air India I'm not so sure. They continue to route daily flights through European (Frankfurt/London and Paris) and in addition to the Delhi/Mumbai-JFK routes don't they.

I believe you are correct, but the 777-200LR's do have the range capability and perhaps the economics to fly India - JFK.

Does the 777LR have the legs to fly from Mumbai, New Delhi or Bangalore to SFO or LAX nonstop?


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7764 times:
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As i said the engineering allows its but my comment and considerations in the main still hold true even for the B772LR.

When looking at the global airline network and passenger traffic flows its a really tiny sub set of routes that can be considered ULH and requiring a designated aircraft type isn't it?
Emirates and Qatar have subset of just few machines for those three markets,yet just about ever-where else they might want to fly the A388 773ER and A332 combinations are both more flexible and cost effective.
From Dubai/Abu Dhabi and Qatar- Only West Coast/South Amercia need log legs
From Europe practically nowhere needs them really
From Asia well maybe Singapore -East Coast
From US reverse of above

Many point to Europe-Australia nonstop as the goal however the B772LR still doesn't have the legs.
Yes it might just do Perth-Europe in One Direction with favorable winds - But that route doesn't even sustain a single direct flight currently and what advantage would there be to say exchanging Perth in one direction for current onestops in Bangkok/Singapore or Hong Kong.

China -South America most flows are cargo anyways and that doesn't complain if a stop of a few hours is made en route.

Singapore have as I said configured their A345 as all business for Non stop SIN-JFK and continue to route a 744 through FRA as well.
West coast services operate successfully some via Tokyo Hong Kong or Seoul for added uplift.
The A388 will be employed to the west coast soon rather than a long legged beast and Qantas already use a mix of B744/A388 and A330 aircraft to the West Coast!

The other not mentioned problem with long leg birds and viability is the very existence of the Alliance Hub and Spoke strategies which see airline dump at partners hubs all within reach of std 772/773ER and A330/A346/A388 marks and even the good old 763ER.

Again as Emirates and Qatar are currently Alliance agnostic they have found that limited niche for the B772LR.

Pakistan has two as well but would have been better served with an extra B773ER because they can only utilize them to Toronto and in one direction from JFK to Pakistan (This is admitted not the fault of the airframe capability but political i know)


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5830 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7717 times:
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Don't forget that fuel prices play a big role in the economics of these ULH aircraft.

User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7618 times:
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Quote:
Don't forget that fuel prices play a big role in the economics of these ULH aircraft

Too true !


User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7126 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 4):
Try telling that to EK, QR and AI.

And DL!

Atlanta



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2304 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7097 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
Does the 777LR have the legs to fly from Mumbai, New Delhi or Bangalore to SFO or LAX nonstop?

AI ordered a few 777-200LRs with aux fuel tanks, so they will likely be used for India - West USA nonstop.


User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7053 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
Does the 777LR have the legs to fly from Mumbai, New Delhi or Bangalore to SFO or LAX nonstop?



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
AI ordered a few 777-200LRs with aux fuel tanks, so they will likely be used for India - West USA nonstop.

Actually AI uses them for BOM-JFK nonstop.

Atlanta



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 6618 times:
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Air India have just four with two orders.
Currently the four just cover the existing daily rotations with no back up

The additional two could well go on Toronto relieving the UK stop over for an additional London -India terminator.

Delta well if are they not competing with EK and AI from the Atlanta hub -its that same limited traffic flow isn't ?

With the incorporation of NW and their own JFK trans-atlantic hub along with the close AF-KL and Korean are there many more routes DL need ULH aircraft .
There is already some existing flight cross over taking place with the incorporation of the NW A332/B744 for the long hauls.
Give you the benefit that the 772LR might well suit Non-stop Atlanta-Tokyo i suppose.

In hindsight given the rapid US-EU openskies treaty and current global recession would they have been better getting a few more ERs and continuing the Asia Traffic -Specifically India via Amsterdam ?

The only other LR operator of note is Air Canada and again they are note used to the optimum as far as i can tell since they share just about all the rotations with the larger 773ER jets!


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6402 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

AI actually has five LRs and are getting a few more in the coming months.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly...T5, CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineEXCOASA1982 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5275 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 8):

Singapore have as I said configured their A345 as all business for Non stop SIN-JFK and continue to route a 744 through FRA as well.

Did the A345 flight switch from EWR to JFK?


User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5220 times:



Quoting EXCOASA1982 (Reply 16):
Did the A345 flight switch from EWR to JFK?

SQ22/21 SIN-EWR vv
SQ26/25 SIN-FRA-JFK vv


User currently offlineThaiA345 From Indonesia, joined Oct 2006, 860 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4822 times:



Quoting Nethkt (Reply 1):
Because TG uses code 777 in Amadeus to identify their 777-200ERs, hence, when you check on TG web-site it shows 777-200/300 as per Amadeus own meaning.

Thanks Nethkt,

Thats a very interesting fact which you told me regarding the codes, however on some TG flights the codes are B77-200/ER ? Or is it also due to Amadeus that the normal B772 are coded as that?

Also where will TG deploy their A345 to once the US routes are doen by the B772ER?


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2304 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4432 times:



Quoting Atlanta (Reply 13):
Actually AI uses them for BOM-JFK nonstop.

Yes, and DEL-JFK nonstop.

However, the 777-200LRs they currently have do not have aux fuel tanks. The remaining planes on order are supposed to come with the aux tanks, and thus will have more range.


User currently offlineAn-225 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 3950 posts, RR: 41
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Just last week I caught a Thai A340-500 out of LAX to BKK and the flight was amazing. Sad to think that they are stopping it and going to a one stop service on a boring 772. Any idea what routes the mighty A340-500 is going to be flying? I know that for a limited time last year they flew on BKK-SIN-BKK segments.

Alex.



Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3710 times:
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Quote:


Quoting Atlanta (Reply 13):
Actually AI uses them for BOM-JFK nonstop.

Yes, and DEL-JFK nonstop.

However, the 777-200LRs they currently have do not have aux fuel tanks. The remaining planes on order are supposed to come with the aux tanks, and thus will have more range.

Yep so following points of reply2 apply:-
2. Tankering of fuel -both cost and weight for flights in excess of 14 hours
3. Reduction of freight footage as a result of point 2 above.

Jet Airways can't make SFO pay with better product so how will AI with long legged flying tanker fair in current economical climate?


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

I just flew EK DXB-SFO and LAX-DXB on an LR and in their layout with 3-4-3 in Y they manage to run the plane almost full (Y was 80%) - TG must not have marketed the sector well in the sub-continent. EK manages to go full, heck even SQ pitches their non-stops well in India.

On another point AI ordered eight 77L's as part of the 50 widebody order (15 77W's and 27 788's) the plan is to operate one non-stop to Texas and one to California fror which the aircraft do need the aux tanks. But with Ai there are plans and then there are plans.



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineDennys From France, joined May 2001, 824 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Should we know where the TG A345s are about to regularly fly , i would be very happy .

A345 LOVER


User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3050 times:



Quoting Nethkt (Reply 1):
They want to get rid of their A340-500s real fast but impossible.

Why wouldn't QF lease them short term and experiment with non-stop SYD-JFK & SYD-LHR all business or first class service (think SQ to EWR) to see if they could develop a niche business?


25 Lufthansa747 : Boeing 777-200/200ER = 772 = TG 777-200 Boeing 777-200/300 = 777 = TG 777-200ER
26 Viscount724 : I haven't noted AC using the 77W on YYZ-HKG or YYZ-YVR-SYD, which I believe were the two primary routes for which they acquired the 77L. They did use
27 MHTripple7 : 9W couldn't get SFO to work because they had nothing better to offer in terms of convenience over LH and other European carriers who have a lot of SF
28 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Ironically, 9W had B772LR's ordered and decided to go with the B77W instead. Though general economies are bad globally, with the price of "black gold
29 ThaiA345 : Hi Lari!! Thanks for the info, so what about TG's B773? WHat are they coded as in the booking system?
30 Nicholaschee : 773
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