ThaiA345 From Indonesia, joined Oct 2006, 814 posts, RR: 17 Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7568 times:
Hi Guys,
Was going through TG's website and noticed that towards the middle of 2009 and onwards, B772/3 aircraft will be operating the route via a tech stop in KIX.
Does anyone know why this is so? I guess its due to pure economics, and I guess it will be the older generation lie flats as only the B772ER has the 2nd Gen lie flats, whereas the aircraft icon used on TG's web is B772/3
Nethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 985 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7518 times:
Um..I guess this is the old story which was mentioned here many times.
Anyhow, TG will utilize B777-200ER (HS-TJR/S/T/U/V/W) for BKK-KIX-LAX starting summer 2009. They want to get rid of their A340-500s real fast but impossible.
Because TG uses code 777 in Amadeus to identify their 777-200ERs, hence, when you check on TG web-site it shows 777-200/300 as per Amadeus own meaning.
Well, personally, I don't think TG high-level management people want to get rid of A340-500s from the fleet, since the aircraft is equipped with 60 Royal Silk seats, it means that their family has better chance of flying silk along with them anytime. Maybe the reason they want to get it of A340-500s is that there is no First class Well, just my thoughts.
Don't be annoyed knowing the passengers around you are non-revs and op-upgraders, be grateful for them. Life is beautifu
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1998 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7429 times:
Simply put the economics of ULH don't seem to work.
Sure the engineering allows it but the economics fail it and this is not the first to revert to a one stop service, especially between Asia and North America.
ULH COSTS
1. Two crews tied up for entire flight- both need resting at end
2. Tankering of fuel -both cost and weight for flights in excess of 14 hours
3. Reduction of freight footage as a result of point 2 above.
4. Loss of addition revenue streams available at en-route points.
5. An additional flight with smaller aircraft may be necessary to that once en-route destination with all its associated costs or just as likely that route becomes inviable and is lost to the network. (An obvious point for this would be Anchorage for instance -Once had near daily connections to European Cities -Now none!)
6. Passenger comfort (especially at back of plane). Either increase pitch and loose revenue or actually follow Singapore a strip it out entirely which actually seems to have worked for their A345 planes.
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7177 posts, RR: 45 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6996 times:
I suppose that the worst that could happen is that TG refits is A345s with F-J-Y or J-Y without the overly generous seat pitch they offer in Y and premium-Y, and start using those planes for flights to Europe or something where there is a lot of demand for cargo. After all, other carriers also use A345s in routes that are not necessarily ULH, such as JJ's flights to Europe.
Wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5531 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6912 times:
Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 2): Simply put the economics of ULH don't seem to work.
Try telling that to EK, QR and AI.
I believe the 777-200LR is better fitted to do ULH than the A345 with more economical cabin layout. However, neither SQ or TG have 777-200LR's to do this job.
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1998 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6862 times:
Are yes Mid-East -West Coast and the Houston oil shuttles on the B772LR maybe so !
As for Air India I'm not so sure. They continue to route daily flights through European (Frankfurt/London and Paris) and in addition to the Delhi/Mumbai-JFK routes don't they.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 22058 posts, RR: 51 Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6863 times:
Cant say TG is afraid of variety -- we've had 743-MD-11-744-A345 and soon 777 serve LAX
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5531 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6828 times:
Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 5): As for Air India I'm not so sure. They continue to route daily flights through European (Frankfurt/London and Paris) and in addition to the Delhi/Mumbai-JFK routes don't they.
I believe you are correct, but the 777-200LR's do have the range capability and perhaps the economics to fly India - JFK.
Does the 777LR have the legs to fly from Mumbai, New Delhi or Bangalore to SFO or LAX nonstop?
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1998 posts, RR: 5 Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6712 times:
As i said the engineering allows its but my comment and considerations in the main still hold true even for the B772LR.
When looking at the global airline network and passenger traffic flows its a really tiny sub set of routes that can be considered ULH and requiring a designated aircraft type isn't it?
Emirates and Qatar have subset of just few machines for those three markets,yet just about ever-where else they might want to fly the A388 773ER and A332 combinations are both more flexible and cost effective.
From Dubai/Abu Dhabi and Qatar- Only West Coast/South Amercia need log legs
From Europe practically nowhere needs them really
From Asia well maybe Singapore -East Coast
From US reverse of above
Many point to Europe-Australia nonstop as the goal however the B772LR still doesn't have the legs.
Yes it might just do Perth-Europe in One Direction with favorable winds - But that route doesn't even sustain a single direct flight currently and what advantage would there be to say exchanging Perth in one direction for current onestops in Bangkok/Singapore or Hong Kong.
China -South America most flows are cargo anyways and that doesn't complain if a stop of a few hours is made en route.
Singapore have as I said configured their A345 as all business for Non stop SIN-JFK and continue to route a 744 through FRA as well.
West coast services operate successfully some via Tokyo Hong Kong or Seoul for added uplift.
The A388 will be employed to the west coast soon rather than a long legged beast and Qantas already use a mix of B744/A388 and A330 aircraft to the West Coast!
The other not mentioned problem with long leg birds and viability is the very existence of the Alliance Hub and Spoke strategies which see airline dump at partners hubs all within reach of std 772/773ER and A330/A346/A388 marks and even the good old 763ER.
Again as Emirates and Qatar are currently Alliance agnostic they have found that limited niche for the B772LR.
Pakistan has two as well but would have been better served with an extra B773ER because they can only utilize them to Toronto and in one direction from JFK to Pakistan (This is admitted not the fault of the airframe capability but political i know)
Wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5531 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6665 times:
Don't forget that fuel prices play a big role in the economics of these ULH aircraft.
Atlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6074 times:
Kaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2208 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6045 times:
Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 7): Does the 777LR have the legs to fly from Mumbai, New Delhi or Bangalore to SFO or LAX nonstop?
AI ordered a few 777-200LRs with aux fuel tanks, so they will likely be used for India - West USA nonstop.
Atlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6001 times:
Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 7): Does the 777LR have the legs to fly from Mumbai, New Delhi or Bangalore to SFO or LAX nonstop?
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12): AI ordered a few 777-200LRs with aux fuel tanks, so they will likely be used for India - West USA nonstop.
Actually AI uses them for BOM-JFK nonstop.
Atlanta
Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1998 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5566 times:
Air India have just four with two orders.
Currently the four just cover the existing daily rotations with no back up
The additional two could well go on Toronto relieving the UK stop over for an additional London -India terminator.
Delta well if are they not competing with EK and AI from the Atlanta hub -its that same limited traffic flow isn't ?
With the incorporation of NW and their own JFK trans-atlantic hub along with the close AF-KL and Korean are there many more routes DL need ULH aircraft .
There is already some existing flight cross over taking place with the incorporation of the NW A332/B744 for the long hauls.
Give you the benefit that the 772LR might well suit Non-stop Atlanta-Tokyo i suppose.
In hindsight given the rapid US-EU openskies treaty and current global recession would they have been better getting a few more ERs and continuing the Asia Traffic -Specifically India via Amsterdam ?
The only other LR operator of note is Air Canada and again they are note used to the optimum as far as i can tell since they share just about all the rotations with the larger 773ER jets!
The777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6087 posts, RR: 56 Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4292 times:
AI actually has five LRs and are getting a few more in the coming months.
The777Man
Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....GA, T5, CI and LX 777s
EXCOASA1982 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4223 times:
Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 8):
Singapore have as I said configured their A345 as all business for Non stop SIN-JFK and continue to route a 744 through FRA as well.
ThaiA345 From Indonesia, joined Oct 2006, 814 posts, RR: 17 Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3770 times:
Quoting Nethkt (Reply 1): Because TG uses code 777 in Amadeus to identify their 777-200ERs, hence, when you check on TG web-site it shows 777-200/300 as per Amadeus own meaning.
Thanks Nethkt,
Thats a very interesting fact which you told me regarding the codes, however on some TG flights the codes are B77-200/ER ? Or is it also due to Amadeus that the normal B772 are coded as that?
Also where will TG deploy their A345 to once the US routes are doen by the B772ER?
Kaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2208 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3380 times:
Quoting Atlanta (Reply 13): Actually AI uses them for BOM-JFK nonstop.
Yes, and DEL-JFK nonstop.
However, the 777-200LRs they currently have do not have aux fuel tanks. The remaining planes on order are supposed to come with the aux tanks, and thus will have more range.
An-225 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 3950 posts, RR: 45 Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3170 times:
Just last week I caught a Thai A340-500 out of LAX to BKK and the flight was amazing. Sad to think that they are stopping it and going to a one stop service on a boring 772. Any idea what routes the mighty A340-500 is going to be flying? I know that for a limited time last year they flew on BKK-SIN-BKK segments.
Alex.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1998 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2658 times:
Quote:
Quoting Atlanta (Reply 13):
Actually AI uses them for BOM-JFK nonstop.
Yes, and DEL-JFK nonstop.
However, the 777-200LRs they currently have do not have aux fuel tanks. The remaining planes on order are supposed to come with the aux tanks, and thus will have more range.
Yep so following points of reply2 apply:-
2. Tankering of fuel -both cost and weight for flights in excess of 14 hours
3. Reduction of freight footage as a result of point 2 above.
Jet Airways can't make SFO pay with better product so how will AI with long legged flying tanker fair in current economical climate?
Cricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2936 posts, RR: 7 Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
I just flew EK DXB-SFO and LAX-DXB on an LR and in their layout with 3-4-3 in Y they manage to run the plane almost full (Y was 80%) - TG must not have marketed the sector well in the sub-continent. EK manages to go full, heck even SQ pitches their non-stops well in India.
On another point AI ordered eight 77L's as part of the 50 widebody order (15 77W's and 27 788's) the plan is to operate one non-stop to Texas and one to California fror which the aircraft do need the aux tanks. But with Ai there are plans and then there are plans.
PVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 718 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1998 times:
Quoting Nethkt (Reply 1): They want to get rid of their A340-500s real fast but impossible.
Why wouldn't QF lease them short term and experiment with non-stop SYD-JFK & SYD-LHR all business or first class service (think SQ to EWR) to see if they could develop a niche business?
25 Lufthansa747: Boeing 777-200/200ER = 772 = TG 777-200 Boeing 777-200/300 = 777 = TG 777-200ER
26 Viscount724: I haven't noted AC using the 77W on YYZ-HKG or YYZ-YVR-SYD, which I believe were the two primary routes for which they acquired the 77L. They did use
27 MHTripple7: 9W couldn't get SFO to work because they had nothing better to offer in terms of convenience over LH and other European carriers who have a lot of SF
28 Jacobin777: Ironically, 9W had B772LR's ordered and decided to go with the B77W instead. Though general economies are bad globally, with the price of "black gold
29 ThaiA345: Hi Lari!! Thanks for the info, so what about TG's B773? WHat are they coded as in the booking system?
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