Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
SQC Sued By Australia, Pilots Get Unpaid Leave  
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

This is about 2 weeks' old but not been discussed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssAirlines/idUSSYD22418320081222

Quote:
Australia's competition watchdog sued the cargo unit of Singapore Airlines. The commission accused Singapore Airlines Cargo, between 2001 and 2005, of entering into arrangements with other carriers to fix the price of a fuel surcharge and a security surcharge. The watchdog is suing for unspecified penalties and costs.

So when you are in the business of price-fixing you are likely to be charged by multiple countries. Australia has joined the ranks of the US, EU and the UK in suing for compensation. Do the eventual penalties payable to the respective governments get distributed back to the "victims" of the fraud?

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...tilitiesNews/idUSSIN38172620081230

Quote:
Singapore Airlines may ask pilots from its cargo arm to take unpaid leave in a bid to cut costs and reduce capacity, a newspaper reported on Wednesday. Singapore Air told the Business Times it was already in talks with cargo fleet pilots about using the cost cutting moves as a way to avoid retrenchments.

Are they saving up for a provision for the big price-fixing fines? When management made a mistake as bad as this, surely they are to take the blame but what about the rest of the company having take a hit in their pay packet to pay for management's mistake?


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOlympic472 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

SOME SQ Cargo pilots will be furlough 30 months !  worried 


Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2390 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):
So when you are in the business of price-fixing you are likely to be charged by multiple countries. Australia has joined the ranks of the US, EU and the UK in suing for compensation. Do the eventual penalties payable to the respective governments get distributed back to the "victims" of the fraud?

Most likely not, and as I stated a long time back when QF was getting the first or second fine, there should be some law against multiple governments fining the carriers for the same offence, they need a group along the lines of NATO where the offenders are charged/tried/found guilty and then pay one fine to the central body and distribute the fine out to the respective governments. The governments potentially see it as easy money as once they are guilty in one country they are pretty much automatically guilty everywhere else.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2322 times:



Quoting Jbernie (Reply 2):

Most likely not, and as I stated a long time back when QF was getting the first or second fine, there should be some law against multiple governments fining the carriers for the same offence, they need a group along the lines of NATO where the offenders are charged/tried/found guilty and then pay one fine to the central body and distribute the fine out to the respective governments. The governments potentially see it as easy money as once they are guilty in one country they are pretty much automatically guilty everywhere else.

Yes that would be nice, however so long as the fines aren't out of proportion to the actual profits made then so be it... after all if they weren't doing illegal activities then they wouldn't be fined.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8993 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2273 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):
Are they saving up for a provision for the big price-fixing fines?

I have heard unconfirmed rumors that SIA/SQC have entered into discussions for out of court settlements in 3 jurisdictions, I understand details should be forthcoming this year. I understand that these discussions are not final, and when finalized, will be announced to the stock market at the appropriate time.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):
When management made a mistake as bad as this, surely they are to take the blame but what about the rest of the company having take a hit in their pay packet to pay for management's mistake?

Fairly common in any industry, during the financial crisis, more of the "front line" staff have had to take the brunt of layoffs and pay cuts.

Quoting Olympic472 (Reply 1):
SOME SQ Cargo pilots will be furlough 30 months !

I understand some pilots have been redeployed with other operators in India and China. I hear they have determined they have excess manpower to the order of 20+ captains, and 30+ FOs, that would suggest to me they are looking at reducing their fleet by 3 aircraft. That would be in line in the large drop in cargo demand in the area at the moment.

A recent article in the Straits Times indicated SQ were also looking at parking one from the passenger fleet as well. Also hear that the majority of expat pilot contracts are not being renewed at the moment, or being renewed with lower T&Cs.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2216 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):
Do the eventual penalties payable to the respective governments get distributed back to the "victims" of the fraud?

I don't know about anywhere else but they did in the UK during that last BA one. Pax received compensation based on the value of flights they took over the period of several years.


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2108 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 5):
I don't know about anywhere else but they did in the UK during that last BA one. Pax received compensation based on the value of flights they took over the period of several years.

That's what I remembered. BA was fined £121.5m by the OfT and $300m by the DoJ. BA also offered to refund any excess fuel surcharge to passengers. But the refunds were in addition to the fines weren't they? So the fines went to the government's coffers I suppose.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
I have heard unconfirmed rumors that SIA/SQC have entered into discussions for out of court settlements in 3 jurisdictions, I understand details should be forthcoming this year

I wouldn't imagine they would plead guilty in court as it'd be a serious loss of face. An out of court settlement without admitting guilt or liability would be more acceptable.



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2046 times:



Quoting Olympic472 (Reply 1):
SOME SQ Cargo pilots will be furlough 30 months !

First of all, old news!

Secondly, there are a few things going on that haven't been reported. There was a group of SAS Captains and FOs who were on a leave from SAS. They came to SQC when it was initially ramping up and their contracts are up. They have already started to return to SAS. That will resolve some of the excess. SQC offered unpaid leaves for up to 36 months to pilots who wanted them. There were more takers than slots. So, [b]NO PILOTS WILL BE FURLOUGHED[/b} by SQC.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):
Are they saving up for a provision for the big price-fixing fines?

A little over dramatic don't you think? The issue of price-fixing has been under investigation for 5 years in multiple jurisdictions. It's very old news, again! I am missing your point as to the relevance of this post and the lack of timelieness!


User currently offlineBuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1983 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
A little over dramatic don't you think? The issue of price-fixing has been under investigation for 5 years in multiple jurisdictions. It's very old news, again! I am missing your point as to the relevance of this post and the lack of timelieness!

First off, this is the first time I've heard of this news myself. Not good news, but then again it's news to me nevertheless.

Secondly, if what you say is correct Phil, then it's good news for SQC crew. Everyone of us are hoping that furloughs won't happen. But it seems the news nowadays, especially with cargo across the region, is getting worse and worse. I for one am praying that we're near the bottom of the barrel.

Finally, it seems that many airlines have not settled with their relevant authorities in regards to the price fixing allegations. I'm wondering if the airlines who settled have gotten a better deal on the fines than the ones who have not. It seems that this article has not settled that issue yet.

Anyway, no need to be so harsh on the fellow Phil...


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1967 times:



Quoting Buckfifty (Reply 8):
First off, this is the first time I've heard of this news myself. Not good news, but then again it's news to me nevertheless.

Are you referring to the price-fixing or the staffing?

If it's the price fixing, then you might want to watch some news sources more closely. It was first reported back in late 2005 or early 2006. http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=4050

If it's the staffing it's here http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=15157 However, ATW is not the quickest news agency and it was reported in the Straits Times almost 2 weeks prior. Again, it wasn't the entire story since the SAS returns will have a large impact on the numbers.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
I hear they have determined they have excess manpower to the order of 20+ captains, and 30+ FOs,

Those numbers are higher than what has been told to the pilots. The number that has been floating around is 15 Captains and 20 FOs.


User currently offlineBuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1928 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):

If it's the price fixing, then you might want to watch some news sources more closely. It was first reported back in late 2005 or early 2006. http://www.atwonline.com/news/story....=4050

I know about the price fixing issue very well. But it's the first time I've heard that SQ was involved, and are contesting the charges. What this bodes for SQ I don't know, and what evidence the Australian authorities have, it still seems unclear.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
If it's the staffing it's here http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=15157 However, ATW is not the quickest news agency and it was reported in the Straits Times almost 2 weeks prior. Again, it wasn't the entire story since the SAS returns will have a large impact on the numbers.

This is the first time I've heard about the unpaid leave in regards to SQ. It's worrisome not just for you lot, but perhaps it's a sign of things to come for others in the region, including the outfit I fly for.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1900 times:



Quoting Buckfifty (Reply 10):
But it's the first time I've heard that SQ was involved, and are contesting the charges. What this bodes for SQ I don't know, and what evidence the Australian authorities have, it still seems unclear.

Again, it's very old news. The entire investigation has been going on for over 2 years. It basically involves any carrier that has a sizable air cargo operation.

Quoting Buckfifty (Reply 10):
This is the first time I've heard about the unpaid leave in regards to SQ. It's worrisome not just for you lot, but perhaps it's a sign of things to come for others in the region, including the outfit I fly for

Again, it's nothing new. It is really a mute point since the SAS guys going back resolves a lot of the problem. There are guys lining up to go to KAL and see this as a chance to get out of their contract. So, in the day to day world, it's not a big deal.

As far as I am concerned, it's no worry at all.


User currently offlineOlympic472 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1742 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
. . .old news!

It's very old news, again! I am missing your point as to the relevance of this post and the lack of timelieness!

I am missing your point because this is an open forum and not a news site. It is fair to bring up topics for discussion  chat  . Reading the posts following yours, it appears to be news for some in the community.

Quoting Buckfifty (Reply 8):
. . .no need to be so harsh on the fellow Phil...

Agree.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 11):
. . .it's no worry at all.

This is positive "news"  veryhappy  .



Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 11):
Again, it's very old news. The entire investigation has been going on for over 2 years. It basically involves any carrier that has a sizable air cargo operation.

The investigation has been ongoing but it's only recently that the Australians have decided to actually sue. Reuters picked it up in the past 2 weeks so it is news. I stated up front this is 2 weeks old. If it hadn't been discussed on a.net what's inappropriate to start a thread about it?

And it is very clear in my opening post that I am asking about where the money from the fines were going. And that whether it's a common practice for employees to pay for management mistakes.

So excuse my lack of timeliness and ignorance, which other airlines have been fined by which country for price-fixing (cargo)? Here are the ones I found. Who else?

Australia
Accused SQC
Fined QFA(A$20m) BAW (A$5m)

New Zealand
Accused ANZ QFA UAL CPA CLX UAE GIA JAL MAS KAL THA SQC ARG

EU
Accused BAW JAL AFR-KLM SAS CLX CPA SQC ACA
Immune DLH

US
Fined AFR-KLM($350m) BAW($200m) JAL($110m) KAL($100m) QFA($61m) CPA($60m) SAS($52m) MPH($42m)
Leniency Program VIR DLH



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1552 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 13):
And it is very clear in my opening post that I am asking about where the money from the fines were going. And that whether it's a common practice for employees to pay for management mistakes.

I guess I don't see the link between the litigation and overstaffing. Even further I don't see how one can make that leap of faith and connect the two. All large corporations have insurance that cover issues like this. It's generally not covered out of cash flow. So, I don't see how you can infer, imply, or suggest management is making employees pay for mistakes.

If you read the CX threads you will see the bottom has fallen out of the air cargo market and the staffing issues are the results of decreased flying.

So, perhaps you could enlighten the members here on how you connect the two issues!


User currently offlineOlympic472 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1422 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
All large corporations have insurance that cover issues like this.

Maybe corporations are different, but in everyday situations I do not think insurance pays for penalties, or anything that is against the laws. Imagine insurance claims for tickets from expired parking meters. However I do not know how "settlements" are financially settled.



Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ryanair (FR) To Impose Unpaid Leave posted Wed Oct 8 2008 03:52:52 by HeeBeeGB
Sleeping Pilots Get Suspended posted Wed Sep 24 2008 03:21:03 by Eksath
Allied Pilots Get Taste Of Their Own Medicine posted Fri Aug 22 2008 10:57:23 by Apodino
CO Being Sued By Passenger Due To FA Harrasment posted Thu Jul 17 2008 16:48:15 by Dutchflyboi
Why Do Pilots Get Paid More For Bigger Aircraft? posted Mon Feb 19 2007 22:58:58 by Sacamojus
Ryanair Sued By Swedish Politicians posted Thu Apr 6 2006 22:35:55 by BuyantUkhaa
Jetstar Being Sued By.... Jetstar! posted Wed Oct 13 2004 16:41:04 by CainanUK
How Much Do Pilots Get Paid? posted Mon May 24 2004 05:22:07 by Gregviperrt
QF To Be Sued By A... posted Fri Apr 23 2004 12:31:40 by Russophile
How Much Do Commercial Pilots Get Paid? posted Wed Mar 3 2004 11:13:53 by Fuffla