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Official: AF To End PHL; DL To Start PHL-CDG  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8906 times:

Talked about for months, and now officially official as it was recently uploaded into GDS. Air France's last service to PHL will be October 4th. After that:

DL 196 PHL 1850-0840+1 CDG 752 Daily
DL 197 CDG 1030-1300 PHL 752 Daily


a.
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23023 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8873 times:

With that schedule, I gather there will be a PHL-ATL 75A flight. Is that right?


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User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9211 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8869 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
With that schedule, I gather there will be a PHL-ATL 75A flight. Is that right?

I would think so as well...



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User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8791 times:

Actually, AF is NOT ending service to PHL. Nor has DL ended service from JFK-CDG. They both still fly the route via their code share agreement and joint venture, operating as ONE airline across the Atlantic. This is similar to the NW/KL agreement where revenue is shared. Now the alliance can better allocate a/c to demand and increase revenue and yields. But if you must split hairs... an AF ac will not be operating the route.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8764 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 3):
an AF ac will not be operating the route.

I think that was the point. That's not really splitting hairs.


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8559 times:

Aren't they doing this from PIT and RDU as well?


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User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8542 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 5):
Aren't they doing this from PIT and RDU as well?

DL is flying PIT-CDG however RDU was canned a few weeks ago.



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User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8515 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
RDU was canned a few weeks ago

delayed.. it hasn't been canned................ .yet..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8498 times:



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7):

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
RDU was canned a few weeks ago

delayed.. it hasn't been canned................ .yet..

It's as good as canceled, IMO. It's a PR spin to call it "delayed."



a.
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8477 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
It's as good as canceled, IMO. It's a PR spin to call it "delayed."

Time will tell.. if it does officially get cancelled, it will be tragic... if it does come back like CUN does, then the little delay will be a true delay. .whatever the case, it ain't happening this year and that's for sure..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8358 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
t's as good as canceled, IMO. It's a PR spin to call it "delayed."

Call it what you will, but when the economy recovers AA or DL will run this flight, and it makes more sense for DL/AF to run it.


As for the PHL--CDG. I find it interesting that DL is going to actually operate this flight. Do they sense weakness for US Airways on the route. If AF is abandoning it with their own aircraft, it can't be the winner that they want.

So if DL is going to take over this marginal run for AF it makes sense ot argue that RDU-CDG is still well within the realm of operation.



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User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8313 times:



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7):
delayed.. it hasn't been canned................ .yet..

IMHO the only way this flight is ever going to be un-"delayed" is when the economy recovers, it's not operating costs at $40 a barrel that are "delaying" this flight....optomisticly this flight is "delayed" for the next two years.

I'm surprised that PHL-CDG can only support a daily 752 flight by DL vs wide body service by AF. Doesn't US fly this route with a A330? I know PHL is a a major US hub but so is CDG for AF>



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8256 times:



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 13):
So if DL is going to take over this marginal run for AF it makes sense ot argue that RDU-CDG is still well within the realm of operation.

Not really, if AF/DL only see the need for a 752 out of one of the largest urban areas in the country the argument that RDU is going to be able to support CDG service without some serious subsidies/corporate contracts is marginal at best.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 13):
Do they sense weakness for US Airways on the route.

Doubtful if US was having issues with the route they would operate it with a 762/752 vs the 333.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8240 times:
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Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 3):
Actually, AF is NOT ending service to PHL. Nor has DL ended service from JFK-CDG. They both still fly the route via their code share agreement and joint venture, operating as ONE airline across the Atlantic. This is similar to the NW/KL agreement where revenue is shared. Now the alliance can better allocate a/c to demand and increase revenue and yields. But if you must split hairs... an AF ac will not be operating the route.

Let me ask you a question concerning to this.
A PM DL member, how AF handle upgrades on JFK-CDG service ? Same question, Flying Blue elites, how DL treat them on such Transatlantic joint-venture flights ?



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User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23023 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8111 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
This thread is a similar nonevent, because NWDL / AFKL are really one company across the Atlantic. That company is not ending PHL-CDG. It is changing the fleet (and airline) it uses to serve the market.

 checkmark It's new, though. Aside from JFK and ATL, AF and DL really haven't shuffled aircraft that much. In contrast, we're much more used to this with NW and KL. There are some cities (EWR and IAD come to mind) that have seen the operating carrier to AMS change multiple times in a year.

I think some would say that going from AF to DL is a downgrade in terms of onboard service... DL's TATL service has improved a lot recently, so I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8085 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
I think some would say that going from AF to DL is a downgrade in terms of onboard service... DL's TATL service has improved a lot recently, so I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

but AF does have F class(IMHO the main reason DL isn't running JFK-CDG anymore)

I would REALLY like to see DL add an F class. IMHO going four class wouldn't be a bad idea.
FirstElite, BusinessElite, EconomyElite and Economy.



yep.
User currently offlineElmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8065 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
IMHO the only way this flight is ever going to be un-"delayed" is when the economy recovers, it's not operating costs at $40 a barrel that are "delaying" this flight....optomisticly this flight is "delayed" for the next two years.

First, oil isn't all that cheap, particularly when you consider how weak the economy is. Second, when the economy recovers, the price of oil will rise. Maybe not 150, but certainly around $100 per barrel. It'll make a long thin route like RDU-CDG much harder to operate.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8044 times:



Quoting Elmothehobo (Reply 16):
Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
IMHO the only way this flight is ever going to be un-"delayed" is when the economy recovers, it's not operating costs at $40 a barrel that are "delaying" this flight....optomisticly this flight is "delayed" for the next two years.

First, oil isn't all that cheap, particularly when you consider how weak the economy is. Second, when the economy recovers, the price of oil will rise. Maybe not 150, but certainly around $100 per barrel. It'll make a long thin route like RDU-CDG much harder to operate.

Your right oil will rise, and it will make it all that much more likely that this flight will never be "un-delayed."



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7799 times:

What's interesting is that originally this switch was to happen in March 2009 - now it's October 2009. AF has virtually NO Alliance feed through PHL and has relied almost totally on O&D - which worked well for the 5 or 6 months/year the A340-300 had typically flown full. The problem was OCT-MAR. US is likely ecstatic about AF's exit as it can now support a 2nd seasonal 757 with Star feed and fill it. I had taken the PHL-CDG AF flight 3 times last year and I cannot see a DL 757 providing anywhere near an equivalent Business Class service, or for that matter bettering US's 333 Business service. My bet is unless DL has bigger plans for PHL or this is just a seasonal AF downgrade, the new service will end within a year and US will be even happier. Fleetwise, US is getting 5 new A332s in 2009 - 2 for TLV, 1 likely to replace the 767 ATH service and 2 for ?, then 5 or 6 more in 2010. So there should be plenty of potential aircraft available to support an additional CDG seasonal flight in 2010 - the 1st season after AF .

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7688 times:



Quoting Vega (Reply 18):
AF has virtually NO Alliance feed through PHL and has relied almost totally on O&D - which worked well for the 5 or 6 months/year the A340-300 had typically flown full.

Eh? And US Airways has no alliance feed in Paris. Both airlines have 1 hub on the route. US in Philadelphia and "Air France + Delta" has a hub in Paris. This is fine because they serve different traffic bases.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3404 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7265 times:

I have a feeling that due to the new DL/AF link this route very likely could fluctuate, much like NW/KL have done. It appears to preform decently during the summer but plummets during the winter. The new DL/AF link allows DL to remain on the route with a much smaller aircraft in the winter and then AF to potentially take the route back for the few summer months. Rather than AF having a large aircraft on the route year round.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7061 times:



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 10):
If AF is abandoning it with their own aircraft, it can't be the winner that they want.

Since it is a joint venture flight, AF and DL share any decision making regarding this flight. AF is hardly abandoning the flight, but are still operating it using a DL aircraft. That is how joint ventures work.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23023 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6532 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
but AF does have F class(IMHO the main reason DL isn't running JFK-CDG anymore)

Doesn't AF use a 332, though?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineUSflt1778 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 268 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6189 times:

For those with the expectation of US adding a second PHL-CDG flight, this is not likely as they are adding back CLT-CDG this summer. Since so much of their traffic is connecting on the USA side it will be interesting to see how much routes via CLT.

User currently offlineB777a340fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Oh gosh - I hate it when airlines use 757s across the pond. being stuck in the middle for a 7+ hr flight is unbearable to me. AF use to operate its 330 and that was much better. let's see, use US or 757..... i think i'd rather accrue the miles and get a connection.

25 Bobnwa : Is being in the middle seat on a 757 any worse than being in a middle seat on any other aircraft? I believe the seats are the same size.
26 B777a340fan : I believe so... because while the seat may be the same... the aircraft is smaller so you feel even more enclosed than if it were a bigger a/c... at l
27 RafflesKing : Not as bad as being the middle seat of the 2-5-2 777 configuration (i know you meant 3-3)
28 Vega : CLT and PHL are 2 very different domestic and international O&D environments. CLT-CDG will likely be primarily connections, PHL is not. Also, the CLT
29 RafflesKing : I don't view the scenarios as similiar. US passengers can rely on its domestic connections in PHL just as DL passengers can rely on the CDG hub. O&D
30 TOLtommy : No, DL/AF sees that there is more demand on the route than US can handle with one 332. As others have said, US has ffed on one end, but DL/AF has the
31 Viscount724 : True. Although the actual seating space may be the same or very similar, a widebody gives the impression of more space due to the higher ceiling and
32 MCOAviationFan : I agree!! I think you hit the nail on the head!!
33 Cgnnrw : I've voiced my disappointment about this on other threads. AF offers a great econ service on its A330s. I understand revenues will be shared on the ro
34 Captaink : What about the middle seat in the middle section of a widebody. I reckon that to be wrose.
35 DiscoverCSG : While there is certainly some merit to your argument, it does ignore the fact that US operates a daily 333 PHL-CDG-PHL.
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