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Why Did Air New Zealand Suspend FRA?  
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

Where did they fly to FRA from? Prior to the suspension they were actually expanding into FRA. But they cut it suddenly. Why? Codeshare? Or the fact that they joined Star Alliance? Will they ever resume this flight?? Doubt it I guess

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6798 times:

Despite rumours to the contrary, it was never profitable.

Yes, they were usually full - full of backpackers on discount fares, that is.

Most flights went out without a single full-fare economy ticket being sold.
Despite this, it was not losing a heap of money, but Star Alliance links with Lufthansa proved a better bet - and freed up 747s for expansation on the AKL-LAX and AKL-LAX-LHR bread and butter routes.



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User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6798 times:
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depending on who you talk to you get answers ranging from "LH politely but firmly told NZ that they were treading on LHs toes " to "it didn't make sense to run their own metal 2-3 times weekly to FRA when they could do multiple daily codeshares on LH"

Personally , I think the latter explanation is probably closer to the truth , these multi-sector longhauls are expensive to operate ( but I cant help wanting to see NZ back in mainland Europe at some point , either FRA or MUC would provide so many more connections with *A than are possible at LHR )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineJoemac547 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6759 times:
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Quoting TG992 (Reply 1):
Where did they fly to FRA from

They flew 747's AKL - LAX - FRA.


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6676 times:



Quoting Joemac547 (Reply 3):
They flew 747's AKL - LAX - FRA.

I also remember AKL-NAN-LAX-FRA.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6602 times:



Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 4):
I also remember AKL-NAN-LAX-FRA.

There was an AKL-HNL-LAX-FRA at one point aswell.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

Will they start another European destination?

User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6492 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 6):
Will they start another European destination?

It was being considered a year or 2 back but for now it will be on hold. Would most likely be MAN, FRA or MUC.


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5316 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6353 times:



Quoting TG992 (Reply 1):
Despite rumours to the contrary, it was never profitable.

I'm with you on this one.

I also remeber some of the crew getting 6 or 7 day lay overs for this trip.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6269 times:



Quoting ANstar (Reply 8):
I also remeber some of the crew getting 6 or 7 day lay overs for this trip

So long? How come?

When did they start this route? And when did they suspend this flight?

Then why did they start it at the first place?


User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

October 30, 1987, AKL-HNL-LAX-FRA-LAX-HNL-AKL-SYD. The last service was in April 2001 from memory..

There were various trip patterns for cabin crews, including a 24 day trip I think it was - AKL-NAN-HNL-YVR-HNL-LAX-FRA-LAX-LGW-LAX-HNL-AKL or something like that.



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User currently offlineSYDAircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6221 times:

NZ still has the freighter going twice a week

---4--- 00:25 NZ6970 FRA AKL 10:20+2 74Y
------7 12:15 NZ6972 FRA AKL 10:45+2 74Y


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6216 times:



Quoting TG992 (Reply 10):
October 30, 1987, AKL-HNL-LAX-FRA-LAX-HNL-AKL-SYD. The last service was in April 2001 from memory..

Pax?

Quoting SYDAircargo (Reply 11):
NZ still has the freighter going twice a week

---4--- 00:25 NZ6970 FRA AKL 10:20+2 74Y
------7 12:15 NZ6972 FRA AKL 10:45+2 74Y

By whom?


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6456 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

Quoting SYDAircargo (Reply 11):

This is operated by Atlas Air on behalf of NZ, so no NZ metal actually goes to FRA.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 12):
Pax?

Yes, IIRC a 742

[Edited 2009-01-16 01:46:58]

[Edited 2009-01-16 01:52:26]


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6188 times:
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Quoting SYDAircargo (Reply 11):
NZ still has the freighter going twice a week

this is not operated with NZ metal , and , in any case , I believe that it is shortly coming to an end



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6176 times:



Quoting TG992 (Reply 10):
October 30, 1987, AKL-HNL-LAX-FRA-LAX-HNL-AKL-SYD. The last service was in April 2001 from memory..

So recently?

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
this is not operated with NZ metal , and , in any case , I believe that it is shortly coming to an end

Oh I see


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6033 times:

My relatives in Austria used NZ19 FRA-LAX several times at the turn of the century for the purposes of visiting Fiji and Tahiti.

In those days Air NZ had 767s from Los Angeles to Fiji (3x weekly), Honolulu (3x weekly), Tahiti (3x weekly), Rarotonga (3x weekly) and Apia/Tonga (1x weekly).

In effect, Air NZ used Frankfurt to funnel passengers from all over mainland Europe via its LAX hub to all the Pacific islands and New Zealand.

Unfortunately, that Pacific network has been dismantled now so there will probably never again be demand for such a flight. It's a shame, because the 777-200 and 787-8 would be a good size for LAX-FRA, whereas the 747-400 was too big.

That is why the talk of a lack of premium demand is a bit misleading. In those days a 747-400 held 12 First Class and 56 Business Class seats, and Frankfurt couldn't fill them.

But the current 777-200ER only holds 26 Business Premier and 36 (soon) Premium Economy, and would probably do just fine on the route.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6011 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):

this is not operated with NZ metal , and , in any case , I believe that it is shortly coming to an end

Really? Not heard about that.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 13):
Pax?

Yes, IIRC a 742

FRA was served by a mix of 744s and 742s throughout the 1990s. I even remember reading that they sent a couple of 763s there in around 1997 due to 747 maintanence.


User currently offlineNZaholic From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5961 times:

Interesting ...when I was driving around NZ last Feb/Mar, after the folks from across the ditch and us poms, the other nationalities I generally bumped into most were probably the Germans and Dutch, I therefore count myself lucky that I can get from the UK to NZ on 1 airline, with 1 stop!

On that subject, will be heading "your" way again on the NZ1 in 2 weeks - can't wait  Smile


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5666 times:
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Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 17):
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):

this is not operated with NZ metal , and , in any case , I believe that it is shortly coming to an end

Really? Not heard about that.

admittedly yhe only source I have is Granny Herald , so perhaps it should be taken with a pinch of salt as we all know their reporting is about one step above that of the giveaway local rags

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10552085

......Air New Zealand announced last month it will withdraw its Boeing 747 freighter service from the end of March.

The freighter operates twice a week from Auckland to a number of international markets including Australia, China, Germany and the US and contributes about a third of cargo revenue.

The airline said large international customers particularly in Asia and Europe has been unable to commit to forward bookings because of market uncertainties and therefore the service had become unviable.....



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5533 times:



Quoting ANstar (Reply 8):
I also remeber some of the crew getting 6 or 7 day lay overs for this trip.

I seem to recall that the NZ FRA service was just once a week at one point. A very uneconomic use of crew resources.


User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1524 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5462 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
I seem to recall that the NZ FRA service was just once a week at one point. A very uneconomic use of crew resources.

No was twice a week but the service was fri sat i believe days could be wrong but they were consecutive in the end so the crew had either a 1 night or a 6 night stop in FRA .. Needless to say the 6 night was very popular ..



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4724 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
admittedly yhe only source I have is Granny Herald , so perhaps it should be taken with a pinch of salt as we all know their reporting is about one step above that of the giveaway local rags

Hmm, I'd missed that but I'd have expected someone on A.net to have known about it. A third of Cargo Revenue! Wow! Be nice if they went back to the LH MD11F operated flights! They were great to see in AKL!

Wasn't the NZ PAX FRA service at one stage also AKL-PPT-DFW-LGW-FRA or something? Obviously during the DFW days which I think were OCT 1987 till March 89.


User currently offlineAviasian From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Would be grateful if someone could post a bit of history of this route. When did ANZ first began flying to FRA (presumably via LAX)? At its peak (when?), how many flights per week was it operated (with what equipment)? When did it drop to just a solitary weekly flight? And when it decided to finally stop operating (when was the last flight?), how many times per week was it operating?

I always know that there is a historian lurking somewhere here.

Somehow for many, it seems a routing via Asia appears a more tradtitional route than via North America . . . although it probably is actually quite similar in length. An Asian stopover - chosen carefully - probably yields greater revenue if fifth freedom right is available.

Does any ANZ insider know if the airline will ever expand in Asia again in the foreseeable future?

KC Sim


User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4405 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
"LH politely but firmly told NZ that they were treading on LHs toes "

I suppose that, if true, this could technically be considered legally questionable in some circles: anticompetitive, etc. But probably not true anyway.

Quoting Aviasian (Reply 23):
I always know that there is a historian lurking somewhere here.

If he/she is indeed out there I have a few more questions:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 16):
Unfortunately, that Pacific network has been dismantled now

Do tell: what did this Pacific network look like? Any route maps or timetables I could look at?

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 22):
Obviously during the DFW days which I think were OCT 1987 till March 89.

Why exactly did Air New Zealand serve DFW on its own metal?


User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3169 times:



Quoting Aviasian (Reply 23):
Would be grateful if someone could post a bit of history of this route. When did ANZ first began flying to FRA (presumably via LAX)? At its peak (when?), how many flights per week was it operated (with what equipment)? When did it drop to just a solitary weekly flight? And when it decided to finally stop operating (when was the last flight?), how many times per week was it operating?

I answered some of this in reply 10, but here's a potted history of NZ in FRA.

15 July 1968: First Air NZ representation in Europe - Frankfurt office opens.

30 October 1987: Inaugural Auckland-Frankfurt service via Honolulu and Los Angeles. The return southbound service continues on to Sydney.

29 October 1991: A second weekly direct service between New Zealand and Germany is established. The Boeing 747 services operate on Tuesdays and Fridays.

15 September 1992: Boeing 747-400, ZK-NBU, arrives on non stop 11,494 kilometre flight from Seattle. The new aircraft allows Air New Zealand to increase services, including four a week to London, two a week to Frankfurt and daily services to Melbourne.

23 July 1993: Air New Zealand announces a third weekly Boeing 747-400 service to Frankfurt, starting November 4.

4 July 1995: Start of Air New Zealand's third direct Frankfurt-Los Angeles-Auckland service, replacing flights operated via London.

18 March 1996: Air New Zealand and LTU sign a marketing agreement which allows the German airline to buy seats on Air New Zealand flights between Los Angeles and Frankfurt.

I'm pretty sure mid-April 2001 was the last Frankfurt service, but I no longer have the email sent at the time...



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