PM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6715 posts, RR: 66 Posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4635 times:
Widebody sales in 2008 GROSS
TOTAL : 521
Airbus : 341 (65%)
Boeing : 180 (35%)
TOTAL ENGINES REQUIRED (not counting spares) : 1078
Airbus: 712 (66%)
Boeing : 366 (34%)
Total engine orders so far:
RR : 388 (36%)
GE : 196 (18%)
PW : 22 (2%)
EA : 12 (1%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 460 (43%)*
* Includes 60 x A350 where no contract has yet been announced with RR.
Engine orders (Airbus) so far:
RR : 388 (54%)
GE : 40 (6%)
PW : 8 (1%)
EA : 12 (2%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 264 (37%)*
* Includes 60 x A350 where no contract has yet been announced with RR.
Engine orders (Boeing) so far:
RR : 0 (0%)
GE : 156 (43%)
PW : 14 (4%)
EA : 0 (0%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 196 (54%)**
** Includes all (94) orders for 787 placed in 2008.
Jambrain From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 235 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4525 times:
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 1): Wow very skewed order book between A/B RR & GE
must be a very uniquely skewed year when GE outsell RR & P&W 10:1 on B and RR 10:1 on A, certainly you would have to go back to the days of the conway in 1960 to see such a ratio and even then P&W din't win 10:1 did they?
Have you done deliveries yet PM? (good idea to change colour scheme so her indoors doesn't notice A.net!)
Is it normal when airframe backlogs are so long for airlines to hold off contracting engines or are the airlines waiting to see real performance data on wing? (after improvement packs even?)
PM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6715 posts, RR: 66 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4491 times:
Quoting Jambrain (Reply 2): must be a very uniquely skewed year when GE outsell RR & P&W 10:1 on B
It's extreme but it's becoming the pattern.
2005 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 6:1
2006 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 7:1
2007 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 3.5:1
2008 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 11.5:1
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4458 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 4): It's extreme but it's becoming the pattern.
2005 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 6:1
2006 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 7:1
2007 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 3.5:1
2008 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 11.5:1
Do you also have the pattern with Airbus? I guess it's the same, but with RR in the lead vs GE and PW. Maybe a bit less extreme due to EA and PW sales on the a380 and a330 respectively?
Funny to see this pattern. Obviously, in the past GE handily outsold RR, but in the near future, RR will most likely take the lead in deliveries, correct?
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4451 times:
Indeed ramarkable how GE seems to have grabbed market share on the Boeing.
They are the sole supplier on 777LR/LRF and 747-8F / 747-8i and still refrain from offering an engine on the A350XWB.
With the 787 and 747-8 stalling I guess Ge are taking serious hits in the GENX producution, implementing a production delay of at least 2 yrs and a downscaled ramp up even beofre the credit crunch.
Now if everyone had listened to evil Leahy 5 yrs back and simple put the GENX under a pimped A330.. Probably 100 would have left the line already.
I believe they only produce engines for the a32X family. PM only included widebodies. In narrowbodies CFM probably has something like 75% of the market, as they are the sole supplier for the 737. Further, if you look at regional jets, GE is the sole supplier for the CRJ and E-jet series.
Very well then Sir,I shall not keep you any longer...
Quoting Kappel (Reply 10): I believe they only produce engines for the a32X family. PM only included widebodies. In narrowbodies CFM probably has something like 75% of the market, as they are the sole supplier for the 737. Further, if you look at regional jets, GE is the sole supplier for the CRJ and E-jet series.
Thanks. My brain is not quite switched on yet! The title "Widebody Orders" should have given me a clue!
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 3582 posts, RR: 36 Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4374 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 9): Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
And thanks to PM for taking the time to construct this list.
There's more to come...!
My thanks to PM as well.
The numbers in this thread are very interesting. Until I saw it like that I had no idea that RR hardly mounts any engine on a Boeing nowadays, at least compared to the GE share.
Subsequently, RR is doing more and more business with Airbus. Does anyone have an idea why this shift in engine choices by customers (Boeing & GE and Airbus & RR) is happening?
SpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4339 times:
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12): Until I saw it like that I had no idea that RR hardly mounts any engine on a Boeing nowadays, at least compared to the GE share.
Well I dont think thats quite true. RR will be powering a good percentage of the B787's-Around 258 so far and many customers are still undecided.
Also I dont have the figures but I would imagine a large percentage of the B777 GE-90 sales are for B777 types that dont have RR as an engine option.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10443 posts, RR: 20 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4249 times:
Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8): I still dont understand why GE have not got plans to put an engine foward for the A350, or maybe they do??
GE does not want to undermine their monopoly on 777-300ER / 777-200LR.
They are a revenue sharing partner on those programs.
That means they get a slice of the entire airframe sale, not just the engine sale.
And as you may have noticed, these airframes are selling very well indeed.
The old A350 did not threaten this income much, the new one does.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 7): Now if everyone had listened to evil Leahy 5 yrs back and simple put the GENX under a pimped A330.. Probably 100 would have left the line already.
Maybe Udvar Hazy had it wrong afterall..
Which pimped A330 are we talking about?
If as originally planned, Airbus just slapped 787 engines on the A330 and minimize other changes with the goal of getting to market quickly, they'd have lots of interested customers, but they'd undermine both the current A330 orders (customers would choose to wait for the new engine) as well as move the goal posts for the eventual A330 replacement.
As they added more and more enhancements (A350 Mk1 - Mk4) cost and time to market increased yet they hadn't found the sales success they needed.
Thus the fully-composite A350-XWB.
They're in a good position now.
They're selling A330s as fast as they can make them without having invested the money to re-engine the A330.
They're investing in the A330 replacement and getting good market traction for it.
Why is selling 100 re-engined A330s better than selling 100 non-reengined A330s?
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4219 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 9): Maybe. A lot depends on how much market share RR can grab on the 787 and how sales of the A380 hold up. The A350 won't put RR ahead all on its own.
No, but the a330 has seen some VERY healthy RR sales as well recently.
Quoting PM (Reply 9): Patience. I've got to go and cook my wife's dinner first.
Hahaha, sorry. You give us so much, it only leaves us wanting more...
Quoting PM (Reply 14): 2008 : RR outsold PW on Airbus by 49:1
Quoting PM (Reply 15): TOTAL : 3640 (Airbus & Boeing)
RR : 1844 (50.7%)
GE : 1552 (42.6%)
Well, that does give a clue as to how deliveries are going to look like in the near future. For sure no more GE dominance in the widebody segment! RR may soon take over the number one position
Quoting Revelation (Reply 16): GE does not want to undermine their monopoly on 777-300ER / 777-200LR.
I really doubt that's the reason. I think it has more to do with the lack of resources to commit to a new program. Regardless of the monopoly on the 777W/77L, the a350 will sell (and is selling) in big numbers, with or without GE on board. They'd be crazy not to offer an engine if they could.
I suppose the original a350? But even a re-engined a330 with a few minor tweeks might still be enough for a couple of hundred sales in the near future, IF the economy improves.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 16): Why is selling 100 re-engined A330s better than selling 100 non-reengined A330s?
Well, with better engines they might have sold more than 100... the question is, would it sell enough additional frames to warrant the investment of the re-engine program?
PM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6715 posts, RR: 66 Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4161 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 20): There is one disappointing number for RR in this list IMHO, and that is the Trent 1000 vs GEnx. It's almost no contest in this period
Are you perhaps forgetting that 424 of these GEnx will be hanging on 747s where the Trent 1000 doesn't compete?
On the 787 it's GEnx @ 342, Trent 1000 @ 290.
A difference of 52 engines is one good order for 26 planes. That's not so bad, is it?
Scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11357 posts, RR: 50 Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4154 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 20): There is one disappointing number for RR in this list IMHO, and that is the Trent 1000 vs GEnx. It's almost no contest in this period
Don't forget those numbers include GEnxs sold on 88 748s (4 a time!) where there is, literally, no contest.
25 Scbriml: In the time 2006-2008, Boeing's O&D pages show 100 747 sales, of which 88 were 748s. I didn't count the non-8s as RR was competing (and winning some)
26 Revelation: That's not what they are saying publicly, but optimal use of resources is always a consideration. And yet, to the best of our knowledge, GE is still
27 Kappel: Absolutely, and they have their hands full at the moment with the a380 and a350. Plus a320 upgrades (testing the GTF and winglets). And like you said
28 Revelation: Agreed, but there's one interesting counter-point: 787 will first fly with RRs
29 SpeedBirdA380: Thanks. I was not aware of that. Absolutely. GE must be making very handsome profits with the 777 and GE-90. Yes indeed. In fact all current 787 vari
30 Timboflier215: They have plumped for RR's on their 787s. They have yet to commit to RR on the A350s yet though AFAIK. Odd, since RR are the only choice (for now), p
31 PM: You're a bit mixed up here. It's the other way around. Committed to the Trent XWB but not the Trent 1000.
32 PM: I'm afraid Pratt & Whitney continues to slide... ORDERS for the PW4000 2006 - 64 (19 x A330, 6 x 747, 1 x 767) 2007 - 58 (29 x A330, no Boeings) 2008
33 Kappel: Of these I think that Jet Airways is the least likely, AFAIK they have no RR experience. SQ seems very likely, ever since they ordered the 777, they
35 Lightsaber: It has been painful reading this thread. But alas, without the PW4173... Pratt did not have an engine worthy of competing with the Trent. It will. Bu
36 Kappel: Well, they have the GEnx, so yes Indeed, it has taken them a long time to get it on narrowbodies. It would be better for them to start from there (C-
37 Lightsaber: That is the hope! I'm very excited about the C-series. Now when will it launch? A bit less about the MRJ (for a carbon fiber airframe, where is the w
38 Jambrain: I meant after GEnx (as I'm sure you know) I'm not sure the core on the GEnx will scale from 53 klbf to match the 74–92 klbf the TXWB will develop a
39 WestWing: It is amazing to note how few engines (only 30) that P&W have remaining for Boeing aircraft. 16 units for 4 x 747-400ERF for Cathay 8 units for 4 x 7
40 PM: I think you'll find the 757 first flew on RR...
41 WestWing: Mea culpa. Thanks for the correction!
42 PM: Good data. I hadn't got around to counting these. Thanks! Will these be the last 777s delivered with PW - 169 and out? Their last new customer was Vi
43 Kappel: Haha, I doubt it!! What I meant is that the Trent 1000/XWB and GEnx are the "next gen" engines. PW has no engine in this segment (when talking about
44 WestWing: Asiana, Vietnam Airways and United Airlines are the only P&W 77E customers that have not yet ordered next-gen (-200LR/-300ER) models. United is unlik
45 PM: Vietnam seem unlikely (and their leased 77Es have GE) so it's really down to Asiana now. But any way you look at it the PW4000 on the 777 can't have
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