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Widebody Orders And Deliveries In 2008: Engines  
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6178 times:

Widebody sales in 2008 GROSS

TOTAL : 521

Airbus : 341 (65%)
Boeing : 180 (35%)

TOTAL ENGINES REQUIRED (not counting spares) : 1078
Airbus: 712 (66%)
Boeing : 366 (34%)

Total engine orders so far:

RR : 388 (36%)
GE : 196 (18%)
PW : 22 (2%)
EA : 12 (1%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 460 (43%)*
* Includes 60 x A350 where no contract has yet been announced with RR.

Engine orders (Airbus) so far:

RR : 388 (54%)
GE : 40 (6%)
PW : 8 (1%)
EA : 12 (2%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 264 (37%)*
* Includes 60 x A350 where no contract has yet been announced with RR.

Engine orders (Boeing) so far:

RR : 0 (0%)
GE : 156 (43%)
PW : 14 (4%)
EA : 0 (0%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 196 (54%)**
** Includes all (94) orders for 787 placed in 2008.

TOTAL SALES BY ENGINE

Trent XWB : 252 (23%)
Trent 700 : 112 (10%)
CF6 : 94 (9%)
GE90 : 94 (9%)
Trent 500 : 24 (2%)
PW4000 : 22 (2%)
GP7000 : 12 (1%)
GEnx : 8 (1%)
CFM56 : 0
Trent 800 : 0
Trent 900 : 0
Trent 1000 : 0

(The breakdown for deliveries to follow shortly.)

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6163 times:

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
Engine orders (Boeing) so far:

RR : 0 (0%)
GE : 156 (43%)
PW : 14 (4%)
EA : 0 (0%)
CFM : 0 (0%)
No engine selection yet : 196 (54%)**
** Includes all (94) orders for 787 placed in 2008.

Hang on, didn't BA take some 777-200's and 787's in 2008?

Edit:

No, that was 2007 wasnt it. Doesnt time fly!

Wow very skewed order book between A/B RR & GE

[Edited 2009-01-15 22:15:17]


BV
User currently offlineJambrain From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 6068 times:



Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 1):
Wow very skewed order book between A/B RR & GE

must be a very uniquely skewed year when GE outsell RR & P&W 10:1 on B and RR 10:1 on A, certainly you would have to go back to the days of the conway in 1960 to see such a ratio and even then P&W din't win 10:1 did they?

Have you done deliveries yet PM? (good idea to change colour scheme so her indoors doesn't notice A.net!)

Is it normal when airframe backlogs are so long for airlines to hold off contracting engines or are the airlines waiting to see real performance data on wing? (after improvement packs even?)



Jambrain
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 6051 times:

Widebody deliveries in 2008

TOTAL : 182

Airbus : 97 (53%)
Boeing : 85 (47%)

TOTAL ENGINES DELIVERED (not counting spares) : 442
Airbus : 244 (55%)
Boeing : 198 (45%)

Total engine deliveries:

GE : 226 (51%)
RR : 146 (33%)
PW : 42 (10%)
EA : 16 (4%)
CFM : 12 (3%)

Engine deliveries (Airbus):

RR : 142 (58%)
GE : 46 (19%)
PW : 28 (11%)
EA : 16 (7%)
CFM : 12 (5%)

Engine deliveries (Boeing):

GE : 180 (91%)
PW : 14 (7%)
RR : 4 (2%)


TOTAL DELIVERIES BY ENGINE

GE90 : 116 (26%)
CF6 : 110 (25%)
Trent 700 : 70 (16%)
PW4000 : 42 (10%)
Trent 500 : 40 (9%)
Trent 900 : 32 (7%)
GP7000 : 16 (4%)
CFM56 : 12 (3%)
RB211 : 4 (1%)
Trent 800 : 0


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 6034 times:



Quoting Jambrain (Reply 2):
must be a very uniquely skewed year when GE outsell RR & P&W 10:1 on B

It's extreme but it's becoming the pattern.

2005 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 6:1
2006 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 7:1
2007 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 3.5:1
2008 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 11.5:1


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 6001 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 4):
It's extreme but it's becoming the pattern.

2005 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 6:1
2006 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 7:1
2007 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 3.5:1
2008 : GE outsold RR+PW on Boeing 11.5:1

Do you also have the pattern with Airbus? I guess it's the same, but with RR in the lead vs GE and PW. Maybe a bit less extreme due to EA and PW sales on the a380 and a330 respectively?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5998 times:



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
Engine orders (Airbus) so far:

RR : 388 (54%)



Quoting PM (Reply 3):
Total engine deliveries:

GE : 226 (51%)

Funny to see this pattern. Obviously, in the past GE handily outsold RR, but in the near future, RR will most likely take the lead in deliveries, correct?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5994 times:

Indeed ramarkable how GE seems to have grabbed market share on the Boeing.

They are the sole supplier on 777LR/LRF and 747-8F / 747-8i and still refrain from offering an engine on the A350XWB.

With the 787 and 747-8 stalling I guess Ge are taking serious hits in the GENX producution, implementing a production delay of at least 2 yrs and a downscaled ramp up even beofre the credit crunch.

Now if everyone had listened to evil Leahy 5 yrs back and simple put the GENX under a pimped A330.. Probably 100 would have left the line already.

Maybe Udvar Hazy had it wrong afterall..


User currently offlineSpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

What an important and successful business venture the A350XWB is for RR and still no competition.

I still dont understand why GE have not got plans to put an engine foward for the A350, or maybe they do??

Nice to see a few RB211's being sold too.- Who brought those?

And what about IAE?

And thanks to PM for taking the time to construct this list.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5950 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
Do you also have the pattern with Airbus?

Patience. I've got to go and cook my wife's dinner first.  boggled 

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
RR will most likely take the lead in deliveries, correct?

Maybe. A lot depends on how much market share RR can grab on the 787 and how sales of the A380 hold up. The A350 won't put RR ahead all on its own.

Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
Nice to see a few RB211's being sold too.- Who brought those?

Deliveries, I'm afraid, not sales.  Sad The last RR 744 for Cargolux.

Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
And what about IAE?

Sorry. I only do widebodies.  Wink

Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
And thanks to PM for taking the time to construct this list.

There's more to come...!


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5949 times:



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
And what about IAE?

I believe they only produce engines for the a32X family. PM only included widebodies. In narrowbodies CFM probably has something like 75% of the market, as they are the sole supplier for the 737. Further, if you look at regional jets, GE is the sole supplier for the CRJ and E-jet series.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineSpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5931 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Deliveries, I'm afraid, not sales. Sad The last RR 744 for Cargolux.

  Sorry thats me getting over excited but still the greatest engine know to man in my totally unbias opinion. 

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Sorry. I only do widebodies.

Fair enough.

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
There's more to come...!

Very well then Sir,I shall not keep you any longer... 

Quoting Kappel (Reply 10):
I believe they only produce engines for the a32X family. PM only included widebodies. In narrowbodies CFM probably has something like 75% of the market, as they are the sole supplier for the 737. Further, if you look at regional jets, GE is the sole supplier for the CRJ and E-jet series.

Thanks. My brain is not quite switched on yet! The title "Widebody Orders" should have given me a clue!

[Edited 2009-01-16 02:27:16]

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4797 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5917 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
And thanks to PM for taking the time to construct this list.

There's more to come...!

My thanks to PM as well.  Smile

The numbers in this thread are very interesting. Until I saw it like that I had no idea that RR hardly mounts any engine on a Boeing nowadays, at least compared to the GE share.

Subsequently, RR is doing more and more business with Airbus. Does anyone have an idea why this shift in engine choices by customers (Boeing & GE and Airbus & RR) is happening?


User currently offlineSpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5882 times:



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
Until I saw it like that I had no idea that RR hardly mounts any engine on a Boeing nowadays, at least compared to the GE share.

Well I dont think thats quite true. RR will be powering a good percentage of the B787's-Around 258 so far and many customers are still undecided.

Also I dont have the figures but I would imagine a large percentage of the B777 GE-90 sales are for B777 types that dont have RR as an engine option.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5877 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
Do you also have the pattern with Airbus? I guess it's the same, but with RR in the lead vs GE and PW.

2006 : RR outsold GE on Airbus by 5:1
2007 : RR outsold GE on Airbus by (get this!) 35:1
2008 : RR outsold GE on Airbus by 10:1

2006 : RR outsold PW on Airbus by 5:1
2007 : RR outsold PW on Airbus by 17:1
2008 : RR outsold PW on Airbus by 49:1

To be fair, the above does not include the Engine Alliance or CFM.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

WIDEBODY ENGINE ORDERS 2006-2008 (36 months)

TOTAL : 3640 (Airbus & Boeing)

RR : 1844 (50.7%)
GE : 1552 (42.6%)
PW : 144 (4%)
EA : 80 (2.2%)
CFM : 20 (0.5%)


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12695 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5792 times:



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 8):
I still dont understand why GE have not got plans to put an engine foward for the A350, or maybe they do??

GE does not want to undermine their monopoly on 777-300ER / 777-200LR.

They are a revenue sharing partner on those programs.

That means they get a slice of the entire airframe sale, not just the engine sale.

And as you may have noticed, these airframes are selling very well indeed.

The old A350 did not threaten this income much, the new one does.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
Now if everyone had listened to evil Leahy 5 yrs back and simple put the GENX under a pimped A330.. Probably 100 would have left the line already.

Maybe Udvar Hazy had it wrong afterall..

Which pimped A330 are we talking about?

If as originally planned, Airbus just slapped 787 engines on the A330 and minimize other changes with the goal of getting to market quickly, they'd have lots of interested customers, but they'd undermine both the current A330 orders (customers would choose to wait for the new engine) as well as move the goal posts for the eventual A330 replacement.

As they added more and more enhancements (A350 Mk1 - Mk4) cost and time to market increased yet they hadn't found the sales success they needed.

Thus the fully-composite A350-XWB.

They're in a good position now.

They're selling A330s as fast as they can make them without having invested the money to re-engine the A330.

They're investing in the A330 replacement and getting good market traction for it.

Why is selling 100 re-engined A330s better than selling 100 non-reengined A330s?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5762 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Maybe. A lot depends on how much market share RR can grab on the 787 and how sales of the A380 hold up. The A350 won't put RR ahead all on its own.

No, but the a330 has seen some VERY healthy RR sales as well recently.

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Patience. I've got to go and cook my wife's dinner first.

Hahaha, sorry. You give us so much, it only leaves us wanting more...  bigthumbsup 

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
2008 : RR outsold PW on Airbus by 49:1

 crazy 

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
TOTAL : 3640 (Airbus & Boeing)

RR : 1844 (50.7%)
GE : 1552 (42.6%)

Well, that does give a clue as to how deliveries are going to look like in the near future. For sure no more GE dominance in the widebody segment! RR may soon take over the number one position  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
GE does not want to undermine their monopoly on 777-300ER / 777-200LR.

I really doubt that's the reason. I think it has more to do with the lack of resources to commit to a new program. Regardless of the monopoly on the 777W/77L, the a350 will sell (and is selling) in big numbers, with or without GE on board. They'd be crazy not to offer an engine if they could.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
Which pimped A330 are we talking about?

I suppose the original a350? But even a re-engined a330 with a few minor tweeks might still be enough for a couple of hundred sales in the near future, IF the economy improves.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
Why is selling 100 re-engined A330s better than selling 100 non-reengined A330s?

Well, with better engines they might have sold more than 100... the question is, would it sell enough additional frames to warrant the investment of the re-engine program?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Here's another one.  Big grin

WIDEBODY ENGINE SALES 2006-2008 by model

RR Trent XWB : 832 (22.9%)
GE GEnx : 766 (21%)
GE GE90 : 526 (14.5%)
RR Trent 700 : 510 (14%)
RR Trent 1000 : 290 (8%)
GE CF6 : 260 (7.1%)
PW PW4000 : 144 (4%)
RR Trent 900 : 120 (3.3%)
EA GP7000 : 80 (2.2%)
RR Trent 500 : 76 (2.1%)
CFM56 : 20 (0.5%)
RR Trent 800 : 8 (0.2%)
RR RB211 : 8 (0.2%)


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

One more before bedtime...

WIDEBODY DELIVERIES BY ENGINE 2006-2008

AIRLINERS:

Airbus : 278 (49.2%)
Boeing : 287 (50.8%)

ENGINES:

Airbus : 678 (50.6%)
Boeing : 662 (49.4%)

GE : 708 (52.8%)
RR : 428 (31.9%)
PW : 160 (11.9%)
CFM : 28 (2.1%)
EA : 16 (1.2%)


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5729 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 18):
WIDEBODY ENGINE SALES 2006-2008 by model

GE GEnx : 766 (21%)
RR Trent 1000 : 290 (8%)

There is one disappointing number for RR in this list IMHO, and that is the Trent 1000 vs GEnx. It's almost no contest in this period  Sad



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5704 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 20):
There is one disappointing number for RR in this list IMHO, and that is the Trent 1000 vs GEnx. It's almost no contest in this period

Are you perhaps forgetting that 424 of these GEnx will be hanging on 747s where the Trent 1000 doesn't compete?

On the 787 it's GEnx @ 342, Trent 1000 @ 290.

A difference of 52 engines is one good order for 26 planes. That's not so bad, is it?  Wink


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12617 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5697 times:
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Quoting Kappel (Reply 20):
There is one disappointing number for RR in this list IMHO, and that is the Trent 1000 vs GEnx. It's almost no contest in this period

Don't forget those numbers include GEnxs sold on 88 748s (4 a time!) where there is, literally, no contest.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6936 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5683 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
88 748s

I think you'll find it's 106!


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5650 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 21):
Are you perhaps forgetting that 424 of these GEnx will be hanging on 747s where the Trent 1000 doesn't compete?

On the 787 it's GEnx @ 342, Trent 1000 @ 290.

A difference of 52 engines is one good order for 26 planes. That's not so bad, is it?

D'oh!!! You are absolutely right of course!!! How could I forget the 748  Wink

No 342 vs 290 is not so bad at all... I was surprised, because I couldn't remember the 787 engine selections being so lopsided... lol  Embarrassment



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
25 Scbriml : In the time 2006-2008, Boeing's O&D pages show 100 747 sales, of which 88 were 748s. I didn't count the non-8s as RR was competing (and winning some)
26 Revelation : That's not what they are saying publicly, but optimal use of resources is always a consideration. And yet, to the best of our knowledge, GE is still
27 Kappel : Absolutely, and they have their hands full at the moment with the a380 and a350. Plus a320 upgrades (testing the GTF and winglets). And like you said
28 Revelation : Agreed, but there's one interesting counter-point: 787 will first fly with RRs
29 SpeedBirdA380 : Thanks. I was not aware of that. Absolutely. GE must be making very handsome profits with the 777 and GE-90. Yes indeed. In fact all current 787 vari
30 Timboflier215 : They have plumped for RR's on their 787s. They have yet to commit to RR on the A350s yet though AFAIK. Odd, since RR are the only choice (for now), p
31 PM : You're a bit mixed up here. It's the other way around. Committed to the Trent XWB but not the Trent 1000.
32 PM : I'm afraid Pratt & Whitney continues to slide... ORDERS for the PW4000 2006 - 64 (19 x A330, 6 x 747, 1 x 767) 2007 - 58 (29 x A330, no Boeings) 2008
33 Kappel : Of these I think that Jet Airways is the least likely, AFAIK they have no RR experience. SQ seems very likely, ever since they ordered the 777, they
34 Jambrain : do GE?
35 Lightsaber : It has been painful reading this thread. But alas, without the PW4173... Pratt did not have an engine worthy of competing with the Trent. It will. Bu
36 Kappel : Well, they have the GEnx, so yes Indeed, it has taken them a long time to get it on narrowbodies. It would be better for them to start from there (C-
37 Lightsaber : That is the hope! I'm very excited about the C-series. Now when will it launch? A bit less about the MRJ (for a carbon fiber airframe, where is the w
38 Post contains links Jambrain : I meant after GEnx (as I'm sure you know) I'm not sure the core on the GEnx will scale from 53 klbf to match the 74–92 klbf the TXWB will develop a
39 WestWing : It is amazing to note how few engines (only 30) that P&W have remaining for Boeing aircraft. 16 units for 4 x 747-400ERF for Cathay 8 units for 4 x 7
40 PM : I think you'll find the 757 first flew on RR...
41 WestWing : Mea culpa. Thanks for the correction!
42 PM : Good data. I hadn't got around to counting these. Thanks! Will these be the last 777s delivered with PW - 169 and out? Their last new customer was Vi
43 Kappel : Haha, I doubt it!! What I meant is that the Trent 1000/XWB and GEnx are the "next gen" engines. PW has no engine in this segment (when talking about
44 WestWing : Asiana, Vietnam Airways and United Airlines are the only P&W 77E customers that have not yet ordered next-gen (-200LR/-300ER) models. United is unlik
45 PM : Vietnam seem unlikely (and their leased 77Es have GE) so it's really down to Asiana now. But any way you look at it the PW4000 on the 777 can't have
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