Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why No Europe - Hawaii Flights?  
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16570 times:

Hello,

while planing my next holidays i wondered why there are no direct flights between Europe and Hawaii.

As Hawaii was and is always a popular holiday destination for Europeans it seems odd to me that in these times of ULH flying no one thinks about starting this route, especially because there is (at least for now) no competition on this sector.

Distance can't be an argument, too as airlines are already flying longer routes today....

Great Circle Mapper:
LHR-HNL 6289nm
FRA-HNL 6474nm


SFO-DXB 7041nm (flown by Emirates direct)
LAX -DXB 7246nm (Emirates, too)

82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMbm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16572 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

While they may be some demand for European services, HNL is notorious for being a lower profit destination as there is not as much business demand. I have met a number of European folks in Hawaii when I visited and most said they were fine taking one of the many one stop trips over both ponds.

IIRC, Sir Branson did discuss LHR-HNL with 787s, but I do not know if that will ever come to fruition.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16518 times:

This topic has been discussed many times.

I just don't think how this route could possibly work?? Like someone else said the last time a thread similar to this one was started, "would you sit in a plane for 15+ hours to sit on the beach?"


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16500 times:

Just for comparison, HNL-SFO-FRA is 7036nm, 600nm more, 90 minutes more flight-time and some 2 hours for changing planes.

Perhaps you are right and the demand for C class is too low. But then i think Hawaii is a destination for a upscale vacation, a lot of tourists paying for the 5 star hotels might be paying the C class price, too.

What are some 5000 dollars for the flight if you pay 8000 for your stay, the rental car and the excursions?


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16480 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):
I just don't think how this route could possibly work?? Like someone else said the last time a thread similar to this one was started, "would you sit in a plane for 15+ hours to sit on the beach?"

Anytime, because the alternative is a 22-24 hour journey back home with two long flights and a stop in SFO, LAX, NYC area, etc. All airports which i would avoid if possible...

[Edited 2009-01-19 06:41:58]

User currently offlineMbm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16469 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hawaii is still one of the top destinations for American tourists as there a number of different price points available for accommodations. My wife and I have enjoyed everything from a $125/night condo to, well, a lot more.


Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4414 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16447 times:

As was mentioned before this has been discussed before. There just is not the tourist market wanting to travel 15-16 hours to go and sit on a beach and the C travelers from North America are usually people like me upgrading with FF miles and not really a revenue generator for the airlines.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16447 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 4):
Anytime, because the alternative is a 22-24 hour journey back home with two long flights and a stop in SFO, LAX, NYC area, etc. All airports which i would avoid if possible...

well you got me there, good point... nothing wrong with SFO, but definetly avoid LAX and JFK


User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16425 times:

IIRC, Airways magazine said that back in the 70s and 80s, Hawaiian used to fly public charters from Europe to HNL on a DC8.

User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16347 times:

Europe has their own "Hawaii" of sorts. Greece, the Azores, etc.

Not to mention those Caribbean flights.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17166 posts, RR: 66
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16270 times:



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 9):
Europe has their own "Hawaii" of sorts. Greece, the Azores, etc.

Not to mention Thailand. Which is closer to Europe than Hawaii and well served with broiled and pickled northern Europans.

Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
Perhaps you are right and the demand for C class is too low. But then i think Hawaii is a destination for a upscale vacation, a lot of tourists paying for the 5 star hotels might be paying the C class price, too.

Yes and no. Plenty of less expensive vacations in Hawaii. When I think upscale I think Bali...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16209 times:



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 9):
Europe has their own "Hawaii" of sorts. Greece, the Azores, etc.

Not to mention those Caribbean flights.



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 9):
Not to mention Thailand. Which is closer to Europe than Hawaii and well served with broiled and pickled northern Europans.

Well, this aren't really arguments why there are no Europe - Hawaii flights. Thailand is a very nice country, the Carribean is a nice area, i never was in Greece and on the Azores, but saying there are flights to somewhere is no reason.

People want to go to diffent countries...


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16167 times:

ULH flights are very expensive and airlines will not be able to make money on such a long sector with only tourists in the back. As long as there is nearly no demand for business travellers there is nearly no chance for a flight HNL- Europe is going to te flown.

User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16149 times:

Wasn't HA planning on HNL-LHR flights with their a350's?

Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):
would you sit in a plane for 15+ hours to sit on the beach?"

Well, there is more to Hawaii than just beaches, so I definitely would not mind to fly LHR-HNL for a nice vacation in Hawaii (of course visiting several islands).



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16054 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 4):
Anytime, because the alternative is a 22-24 hour journey back home with two long flights and a stop in SFO, LAX, NYC area, etc. All airports which i would avoid if possible...

Then try stopping in ATL instead.

There are alot more airports to choose from than you outlined.

Quoting CARST (Reply 11):
Well, this aren't really arguments why there are no Europe - Hawaii flights. Thailand is a very nice country, the Carribean is a nice area, i never was in Greece and on the Azores, but saying there are flights to somewhere is no reason.

People want to go to diffent countries...

There is no argument to be had.

There are no EU-Hawaii flights because no airline (EU or USA) has found a way to fly it profitably. Period, end of story.

You might want to ask why an EU-Hawaii flight would not be profitable, and the answers above give some of the reasons, little business demand, lots of low priced 1 stop competition.....


User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15944 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 11):
Well, this aren't really arguments why there are no Europe - Hawaii flights. Thailand is a very nice country, the Carribean is a nice area, i never was in Greece and on the Azores, but saying there are flights to somewhere is no reason.

People want to go to diffent countries...

Then they can stop in one of the other states in the US before continuing onward to Hawaii. There's nothing stopping people from going anywhere unless they're too hardheaded to stick to non-stop service only.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1704 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15929 times:

Perhaps Emirates will launch 3x daily A380 DXB-HNL services? Who knows....

User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15798 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 14):
There are no EU-Hawaii flights because no airline (EU or USA) has found a way to fly it profitably. Period, end of story.

Western Airlines tried HNL-ANC-LGW back in 1980. The route didn't last too long.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 16):
Perhaps Emirates will launch 3x daily A380 DXB-HNL services?

I seriously doubt it.  Smile


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15798 times:

Has been done before. LTU had flights with L1011 DUS ANC HNL vv for a while, cannot say exactly when however

In the long run such flights are not competetive, US carriers can offer connections through their gateways and can match any fares.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15752 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):
This topic has been discussed many times.

 checkmark 

Simple search would find:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/3710573
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/3256001


But the bottom line is:

Only the tiniest number of Europeans visit Hawaii (barely 100,000 out of 8mil visitors in 2007) -- and of those 53% are from the UK. Basically its a tiny, low yield market.

There are more visitors from China, Hong Kong, Brazil, Mexico all which lack their own flights to Hawaii. Even service from the Eastern US and Canada is limited as Hawaii is primarily a West Coast and Japanese market.(between them they are 73% of visitors).



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15732 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
In the long run such flights are not competetive, US carriers can offer connections through their gateways and can match any fares.

Not to mention codeshares with said US carriers through alliances.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15542 times:



Quoting Hirnie (Reply 12):
ULH flights are very expensive and airlines will not be able to make money on such a long sector with only tourists in the back. As long as there is nearly no demand for business travellers there is nearly no chance for a flight HNL- Europe is going to te flown.

I could have quoted several answers, too... why should a 6200nm flight between HNL and LHR not be profitable?

When 7000nm or 7200nm flights from DXB to LAX/SFO are profitable these Europe - Hawaii runs should be, too.

I mean what business demand have these west coast USA - DXB routes?


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15541 times:

Quoting Bohica (Reply 17):
Western Airlines tried HNL-ANC-LGW back in 1980. The route didn't last too long.

I am wondering if this route, at least seasonally, could work again with today's more efficient aircraft (i.e. 757 or 738/739, etc).

Edit: never mind. A 757 can't make the ANC-LON segment.

[Edited 2009-01-19 10:11:52]

User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15464 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 21):
I could have quoted several answers, too... why should a 6200nm flight between HNL and LHR not be profitable?

Because the leisure market is (LHR-HNL) is very elastic (meaning price sensitive), and there is essentially no industry in HI to support a business travel market (with the accompanying higher yield and less elastic business travel market).

Quoting CARST (Reply 21):
When 7000nm or 7200nm flights from DXB to LAX/SFO are profitable these Europe - Hawaii runs should be, too.

We do not yet have any authoritative information to conclude that DXB to LAX/SFO are profitable yet, but on both ends of these routes there are business entities providing for a much higher yielding travel market.

Quoting CARST (Reply 21):
I mean what business demand have these west coast USA - DXB routes?

DXB is the primary middle east connecting hub, and along with their own O&D provide connections from the West Coast of the USA to all of Asia and the Pacific without needing to connect in Europe. There is alot more business to conduct in DXB than in HNL, and alot more places to connect to. Please note that USA tourist GENERALLY do not look upon Dubai in the same way as Europeans as a highly rates place for a holiday.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15444 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 21):
When 7000nm or 7200nm flights from DXB to LAX/SFO are profitable these Europe - Hawaii runs should be, too.

Because Europe-Hawaii is all leisure. ULH routes is marginal to begin with, but cant be sustained off tourist only.

Quoting CARST (Reply 21):
I mean what business demand have these west coast USA - DXB routes?

Tons! C class is near consistently sold out on EK. I know as I've had colleagues that wanted to try the new service and were unable to book the dates they wished as there was zero availabilty.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Viscount724 : As already mentioned, this subject comes up every few months with exactly the same replies. To allocate an expensive longhaul widebody to operate Euro
26 Luckyone : A great deal considering many people who go to Hawaii go only once. It is often regarded as the "trip-of-a-lifetime." Factor into that hardly anyone
27 Alessandro : So is a stopover in Japan so troublesome?
28 Gorgos : I understand it. Its all about cost and effort to visit a certain place. When living in the EU, you can stay home (Spain, Portugal, France, Italy or
29 Mortyman : I think if Europeans were to travel that far, i think they would travel even further to Tahiti or Cook Islands, rather than Hawaii. Personally, I chos
30 Viscount724 : Mauritius, Maldives and Seychelles are also popular upscale leisure destinations for Europeans looking for sunny beach resorts, and are all much clos
31 YYZflyboy : You can always connect in YVR if you want to as well - via AC. YYZflyboy
32 Thestooges : 15 hours is a long way to fly to sit on a beach, but then a lot of European tourists, fly all the way to Australia to sit on beach and thats more than
33 Gorgos : Believe me, the English have no problem whatsoever making themselves feel at home in Spain or Greece during the summer (I mean this in a good way as
34 Brilondon : If the potential was there there would be flights. The if you build it they will come philosophy is not the way the airlines work. If they see enough
35 Andaman : Well, Thailand isn't really 'very very far' comparing to others, thinking of Northern Europe atleast where the winter charters are especially popular
36 Andaman : The term 'very developing world' doesn't fit Thailand very well. Thailand is popular because it can provide good holiday services with a very good pr
37 Directorguy : Wishful thinking on my part, of course Whether there is a language/culture barrier between Brits and the rest of Europe is a highly debatable matter
38 Thestooges : Yes, but there are English people that would rather not deal with a language barrier. I'm not European, but Ive lived in Europe for the past 7 years,
39 Thestooges : Thailand is officially considered a developing country. I definitely agree with this. There are some Anglos that want to experience a culture shock,
40 Andaman : Sure, but for a tourist Thailand is well developed and that what's important here. High quality tourist services, good infrastructure and friendly -
41 Thestooges : I was in Thailand quite a while back now, lets say 2003, but my impression was that it was definitely not developed at all. I mean it was indeed rela
42 FlyLKU : Don't confuse Honolulu with Hawaii. The Hawaiian islands have one of the most diverse set of climates packed into a tiny area that one can find anywh
43 HNL-Jack : As has been noted here, it simply doesn't make economic sense at the moment. European visitors to Hawaii continue to grow and by the time the A-350's
44 Luckyone : Hawaii has one of the most unique and distinct cultures on Earth once you're outside Honolulu. Which could just as easily hit Hawaii.
45 Sokol : This is the best way from Europe to Hawaii, British Airways BA, Lufthansa LH, Air France AF and Air Berlin AB they can do it from any airport in Engla
46 Thestooges : Well as far I know, I dont think Hawaii has been hit by a tsunami, at least not recently. Now, Thailand definitely was recently hit by one, which mea
47 Thestooges : Well, I agree with this, like I said before the only aircraft that can fly this route, such as the 744, 772, 346, are a bit big for the demand, I mea
48 LAXintl : Sorry but they are on a historical flat, if not downward trend actually Annual European visitors 2002- 111,275 2003- 111,074 2004- 114,948 2005- 112,
49 Contrails15 : Is there non-stop service from EWR to HNL from Continental. If there is, that has to be hitting 15hrs
50 Post contains links EGNR : First Choice Airways mentioned interest in long haul point-to-point flights for UK holidaymakers when they placed their 787 order: From Spring 2009, w
51 Post contains links EGNR : First Choice Airways mentioned interest in long haul point-to-point flights for UK holidaymakers when they placed their 787 order: From Spring 2009, w
52 CALPSAFltSkeds : Western touted the fact that an ANC stop on the route adds only 29 miles to the great circle route. The problem was that Western had to double crew t
53 Viscount724 : Yes, daily 764 nonstops. Much shorter than 15 hrs. Block time 11 hrs westbound, 9:25 eastbound.
54 DLPMMM : It has been in the past with thousands of dead, and is just as likely to get hit with another as Thailand. Recently is a relative term, especially in
55 Andaman : Actually the 2004 tsunami effected the tourist numbers only for a quite short period. Since that the tourist numbers from Finland for an example have
56 DavidByrne : A left-field possibility is Air New Zealand, which currently operates AKL-HNL services 2-3 times a week, depending on season. The HNL services appear
57 FLALEFTY : I think the biggest issue making HNL to Europe non-stop flights uneconomical is having to fill up full tanks on a 777, 744, A380, etc. at premium pric
58 Rafabozzolla : Brazil, really? Hawaii seems just so distant to me (from Brazil). Hard to believe there are more Brazilians going to Hawaii than Brits. We don't even
59 HAL : There has been a lot of talk about using Hawaiian's A350's (when they arrive in 2017) to begin service to Europe - probably LHR or LGW. Our CEO is fro
60 US330 : Which island did your friends go to? The only place in Hawaii that I can think of that matches that description would be Honolulu--the capital. About
61 Thestooges : Ok, doing a bit of research does in fact show that Hawaii is in fact quite tsunami prone, although the death toll in the past century is only about 2
62 Pohakuloa : Yup, I have a instructor that flew those routes. My own fanciful thought was that with an existing code share between these two airlines and when HA
63 Rj111 : May have been mentioned but LH flew FRA-HNL breifly with their at the time new A342s. I can't imagine any strong demand for it in the money-making sea
64 Viscount724 : If memory correct, those were only a few demonstration flights in conjunction with Airbus to promote the A340's long range capabilities. I can't reca
65 RJ111 : That may well have been the case. I really can't imagine any demand what so ever. Interestingly though, the only true Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific
66 Andaman : That's like avoiding California because of the possible massive earthquake in SF The only thing I'm afraid in Thailand is the traffic and the smell o
67 STT757 : My Wife and I vacationed in Maui and Oahu back in August, I was quite surprised how many Europeans (Mostly Brits) we met there considering the lack of
68 Thestooges : For me Ko Pha-ngan and Ko Samui on the Gulf side dont even come close to Ko Phi Phi and Krabi on the Indian Ocean side. Ko Phi Phi was one of the mos
69 Starlionblue : The chance of a tsunami hurting you is tiny. You might as well avoid driving a car for fear of being in an accident. But hey, you have Malaysia, The
70 Max Q : 'Anerican culture is a lot closer to English culture than Spanish or Greek' I have to completely disagree with that, as an Englishman by birth and a n
71 Gorgos : I cant relate to the hostility you have noticed. Anyway, having lived in Amsterdam you surely must have noticed most people speak English, German and
72 Post contains links WunalaYann : Actually, you will find that this is wrong. The simple distance between the two areas makes it that European (and virtually every single country's) t
73 BlueWave 707 : Most Europeans take advantage of code-shares to make to Hawaii from Europe.
74 Ikramerica : There are so many false reasons given for why no HNL-LHR route has existed time and again on a-net. The reality is historically simple: 1. No aircraft
75 Platinumfoota : Whats wrong with LAX? Sure the terminals are crappy but chances of weather delays are very slim.
76 FlyingKangaroo : Yes, but these investors aren't going to be going on leave year round. One cannot start a flight for such a sensitive niche market. If they truly wan
77 Birdwatching : "Scandinavian one oh one..." You win 1000 points if you complete the quote and put it in context. Soren
78 Starlionblue : Having lived both in the UK and the US, I must chime in with Max Q and disagree. At best the differences are about on par. But I think Brits have mor
79 RJ111 : Shouldn't it be one zero one? Whatever the quote is.
80 Jimbobjoe : If there were that cargo demand, wouldn't there already be a cargo flight between Hawaii and Europe? (I suspect there is, but can't seem to find evid
81 PanHAM : LHCargo had RTW flights which made a tech stop at HNL, but I think that was westbound only and the routing was FRA ORD HNL AKL MEL and return via Asia
82 Rutankrd : Thestooges I respectfully disagree with your assumptions especially regarding UK and European International travel and decision-making processes. 1. E
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why No Really Early Flights? posted Wed May 23 2007 05:05:53 by Tonytifao
Why No LPL - LON Flights? posted Tue May 2 2006 14:49:29 by Ba757gla
Tunisair: Why No Long Haul Flights? posted Sun Mar 26 2006 21:03:04 by LY777
Why No DFW-CLL Flights On March 11? posted Thu Mar 3 2005 20:34:18 by Ssides
Why No ATL-LHR Flights? posted Tue Jul 2 2002 10:54:43 by Flying Belgian
Why No London-Hawaii? posted Tue Jun 11 2002 07:38:58 by Flight Level
Why No NRT-KIX Flights? posted Sat Sep 1 2001 04:33:31 by TOMASKEMPNER
Why No Coast-coast Flights By 777? posted Sat Feb 24 2001 07:56:15 by Shawn Patrick
Why No British Airways Flights To Dublin? posted Mon Mar 27 2000 19:40:44 by Jet Setter
Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia? posted Thu Apr 20 2006 00:29:25 by Airevents