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Will BOS Be Seeing Any New Int'l Svc?  
User currently offlineClrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

Aside from the possible NRT idea that's been tossed around, could BOS see the likes of say Austrian, Aeroflot, Emirates, SAS.....or a non-stop by someone to TLV? It may be out of the question, just curious what everyone thinks?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5470 times:



Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
could BOS see the likes of say Austrian, Aeroflot, Emirates, SAS.....or a non-stop by someone to TLV

Emirates in the long-term, definitely. SAS, maybe someday when things get better (both for SAS and the economy). The rest I would say are pretty much out of the question, especially TLV.



a.
User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2887 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

Rumours a few months ago about Delta starting SNN...I don't know what happened with that.


Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Boston is already nicely served, by almost every major EURO carrier on a multi daily basis.

BOS should focus on getting links to the Pacific/South America if such a viable business case exists.


User currently offlineRandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5332 times:



Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
Aside from the possible NRT

Don't look for this to happen anytime soon. Many so-called BOS proponents have been kicking this idea around since the 1990's. The shrinking global economy (especially in the Pacific Rim) will only reduce the possibility of this service in the near and long-term.

Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
Austrian, Aeroflot, Emirates, SAS

That's a great way of thinking, but, BOS does not have the feed or connections that JFK can produce. I highly doubt we'll ever see those airlines you've mentioned outside of a charter or diversion situation. We're a great JFK diversion airport, especially in the summer!

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 2):
Rumours a few months ago about Delta starting SNN

That rumor has been going around for years. I know for a fact that if CBP had allowed DL to have customs facilities in their multi-million dollar terminal, DL would operate international flights. Let's not forget, AA entered the SNN/MAN/DUB markets, couldn't make it work and pulled out. There's just not that much demand in this market - period.



"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5282 times:

Here's my opinion:

In Europe, BRU and GLA could work. GLA needs someone other than Flyglobespan.

In Asia, China/Japan/Korea are viable with a 787.

I think the 787 will open up new markets, but it will be interesting to see where.



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User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Even with the big hit in passenger traffic, Boston-Europe/Middle East has only taken a very small hit.

I don't think BOS-TLV service would be too far fetched, considering about 200 people a day fly between BOS and TLV. Will it happen? Doubt it. If LY could not make MIA work, I doubt BOS would happen.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 5):
Here's my opinion:

In Europe, BRU and GLA could work. GLA needs someone other than Flyglobespan.

In Asia, China/Japan/Korea are viable with a 787.

I think the 787 will open up new markets, but it will be interesting to see where.

I agree that BRU is a city that would see service. There is pretty good demand and the yields are pretty good also.

BOS-Asia as mentioned will not happen until the arrival of 787s. I would say that by 2014 BOS should have non-stop service to at least ICN or NRT.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

The Middle East/South Asia market is a gap. I see one of two scenarios happening:

1. A Middle Eastern airline like EK or EY coming. With the Indian population in New England growing, they'll be able to capitalize on connections to the Subcontinent. Furthermore, many in the Arab region come to Boston to study and that, despite being students, is pretty lucrative. Many students heading home to Saudi or Bahrain travel in premium cabins. Usually it's the American students heading over to visit family living on the compounds in places like Dammam that travel on cheap economy fares.

2. The other I think would work well but don't see happening now given the financials of the airline was 9W to BOM via BRU. BRU is a hole in the BOS network. With 9W and SN cooperating you would have the feed to Africa that Sabena made Sabena successful in the Boston market and the connections to India through the scissor hub. However, I don't see that happening unless Jet can turn itself around.

Otherwise, BOS just doesn't have the feed or market to support secondary European airlines like OS or SK (though of the list this would probably have the biggest chance of working though I think an CPH would be another MAD; a good market but no proper aircraft to serve it.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently onlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4095 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5180 times:



Quoting Flyyul (Reply 3):
Boston is already nicely served, by almost every major EURO carrier on a multi daily basis.

BOS should focus on getting links to the Pacific/South America if such a viable business case exists.

I agree with this. The European markets worth serving are already well-served out of Boston. You'd be hard pressed to find a 'strong, sustainable route' that doesn't already have someone on it.

Asia is the big hole, with smaller U.S. metro markets getting service while we still wait. The fact that JFK is 'close by' stands in our way of getting service. The long-awaited 787 is supposedly going to open up the long-and-thin routes, which anything between Boston-Asia would be.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5036 times:



Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 4):
That's a great way of thinking, but, BOS does not have the feed or connections that JFK can produce.

That's all relative. I would argue that *A has better feed at BOS than JFK.
But the short answer is no, I don't think BOS will see any new international service in 2009. At this point I'll be happy if we keep what we have.


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5013 times:



Quoting Flyyul (Reply 3):
BOS should focus on getting links to the Pacific/South America if such a viable business case exists.

South America is tough because it requires an aircraft that can handle the distance but probably not that much demand. There would likely be little connecting traffic on the BOS end due to it being so far north in the states

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 8):
Asia is the big hole, with smaller U.S. metro markets getting service while we still wait.

I think it has to do more with the right size aircraft being available and then fact that BOS is not a major hub for any one particular carrier. Most of the cities that currently see service to Asia are either major hubs, or positioned in an area to allow current aircraft to adaquately serve the market.

As you mentioned the 787 will provide the right capacity while still being able to fly nonstop


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4962 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
The rest I would say are pretty much out of the question, especially TLV.

There is a huge very large community in the Boston area, so that might work.

I still don't understand why there are no flights from BOS to Brazil. The Brazilian community in MA is just huge and while I know this is low-yielding, there have got to be at least a couple of hundred thousand people around.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4933 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
There is a huge very large community in the Boston area, so that might work.

No, there isn't. You might be confusing a large Jewish community with a large Israeli community. The latter drives traffic to Israel, the former does not. And Boston's Jewish community is still dwarfed by LA, Miami, and Philadelphia, not to mention New York, which dwarfs them all.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):

I still don't understand why there are no flights from BOS to Brazil. The Brazilian community in MA is just huge and while I know this is low-yielding, there have got to be at least a couple of hundred thousand people around.

You answered your own question. Market is definitley there to fill a plane, yield is not.

[Edited 2009-01-22 12:47:10]


a.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4722 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
You answered your own question. Market is definitley there to fill a plane, yield is not.

But the Azores are pretty low yielding as well and that does not stop SATA from offering service there. I know the distances involved aren't the same but the A310 isn't exactly the most efficient aircraft like there, either...



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User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4697 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):

But the Azores are pretty low yielding as well and that does not stop SATA from offering service there. I know the distances involved aren't the same but the A310 isn't exactly the most efficient aircraft like there, either...

Indeed, but, again, you said it yourself: Distance. Like you said, the distances aren't the same. The Azores takes about half the time to get to. An A310 might not be efficient, but that's irrelevant in the comparison. BOS-PDL is only ~2,300mi, shorter than Boston-Los Angeles by about 300 miles. It's easy to charge dirt cheap fares on a widebody, on a charter carrier, on such a short route.

There really isn't a way to fly BOS-GRU - ~4800mi - profitably with just VFR traffic.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9320 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4675 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
You answered your own question. Market is definitley there to fill a plane, yield is not.

Agreed its much better to send them via NYC/DFW/MIA/IAH/ATL/IAD



yep.
User currently offlineGatiBOSGRU From Brazil, joined Oct 2007, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4583 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):

Agreed its much better to send them via NYC/DFW/MIA/IAH/ATL/IAD

And ORD


User currently offlinePP705 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4507 times:

BOS was on 9W's radar when they started flying international. Don't know if it holds true now.

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 3875 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
I still don't understand why there are no flights from BOS to Brazil. The Brazilian community in MA is just huge and while I know this is low-yielding, there have got to be at least a couple of hundred thousand people around.

At the risk of making a bad comment, a lot of the Brazilian community is very recent and would have a hard time not only paying for the ticket but also re-entering the US if they were to go home. By comparison the Portuguese community is very old and has gone through a couple of immigration amnesty cycles  Smile Combine that with the proximity of Portugal and the Azores and even with that, it only seems to work as a charter operation.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
There really isn't a way to fly BOS-GRU - ~4800mi - profitably with just VFR traffic.

For starters it would have to be a Brazilian carrier because of the limitations posed by the US-Brazil bilateral which "forces" US carriers to operate from the most profitable cities. Varig had at one point announced service to Boston, then came Sept 11. If it was not for the visa restrictions a carrier like TAM could probably make BOS work by having a monopoly on the route (I do believe that there is some demand), and being able to connect with not only some domestic destinations but also LH and LX flights to Europe. But as things stand right now, I don't think we will see a non-stop to Brazil any time soon. We're more likely to see Asia before we see anything to Brazil.


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3498 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
If it was not for the visa restrictions a carrier like TAM could probably make BOS work by having a monopoly on the route (I do believe that there is some demand), and being able to connect with not only some domestic destinations but also LH and LX flights to Europe.

Why would they connect pax to Europe here? From GIG/GRU to FRA/MUC/ZRH the route goes along the coast of Brazil, then across to Africa passing the Cape Verdean Islands, the Canaries, and getting close to LIS. It doesn't go anywhere near BOS (that would add 2500 miles). BOS would be good transfer point for NRT flights, if we had any. It's too bad nobody could fly GIG-BOS-NRT because of lack of 5th Freedom Rights and BOS not being a hub. Anywhere else in Asia wouldn't work for connecting here because if you fly GIG-ICN you go over Europe (past FRA).

Emirates seems to come up as a possible carrier in the future, but I don't see what is in DXB that we could use, aside from maybe a possible connecting point to India.



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User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3450 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 19):
Emirates seems to come up as a possible carrier in the future, but I don't see what is in DXB that we could use, aside from maybe a possible connecting point to India.

That's exactly it. As much as Dubai is growing at an enormous rate, much of EK (and to a lesser extent EY) has been mantled on using DXB (arguably one of the most central airports, geographically speaking, in the world) to funnel passengers elsewhere. For sure, DXB is increasingly a destination but EK hasn't bought that many A380s solely because of Dubai tourism and business. They're being bought for EKs massive expansion plans to transfer huge amounts of people on both the east-west and north-south axes.

While there is some O&D business and tourism, the bulk of the North American traffic on EK and EY is transiting the Middle East. You can be sure that EK and EY are both in Toronto to cater to the huge South Asian populations and not traffic headed to DXB or AUH.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3415 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
There is a huge very large community in the Boston area, so that might work.

I still don't understand why there are no flights from BOS to Brazil. The Brazilian community in MA is just huge and while I know this is low-yielding, there have got to be at least a couple of hundred thousand people around.

A significant part of that community is made of undocumented aliens that will not travel. However, yes, there are many that have been in the Boston area for 20+ years and are US citizens at this point. There are plenty of Brazilians that have a Boston connection in another way, including Harvard and MIT.

I think the market could support seasonal service over the Summer and holiday season, say, 3 x week. But which airline is going to bother - especially with the pain-in-behind processes to get frequencies and space at GRU?


User currently offlineBOstonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3317 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
A significant part of that community is made of undocumented aliens that will not travel. However, yes, there are many that have been in the Boston area for 20+ years and are US citizens at this point.

It's true, I know some people who were going to become citizens but now cannot because 9/11 changed everything and Bush has blocked immigrants from becoming citizens. Hopefully Obama will fix that, and he has said he will do it. It seems that a lot of Brazilians want to come here, but they don't want to go back.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 20):
While there is some O&D business and tourism, the bulk of the North American traffic on EK and EY is transiting the Middle East. You can be sure that EK and EY are both in Toronto to cater to the huge South Asian populations and not traffic headed to DXB or AUH.

You know, you use the line tool in Google Earth and compare it to the path tool through DXB and it looks like you are going thousands of miles out of your way. But there are several routes EK flies where flying to via DXB adds less than 1,000 statue miles: Perth, Austrailia; Manama, Bahrain; All of India; Kuama Lampur, Malaysia; Male, Maldives; Port Louis, Mauritius; Muscat, Oman; Karachi, Pakistan; Doha, Qatar; Damman and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia; Mahe, Seychelles; Singapore; Colombo, Sri Lanka; San'a', Yemen. And for 1,000 nm, that list grows to include Dhaka, Bangladesh; Kutait City, Kuwait; Lahore, Peshawar, and Islamabad, Pakistan; and since it's just 14 nm outside and there's room for error, Bangkok, Thailand. That's pretty fascinating when you think about it.



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User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6743 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3169 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
I think the market could support seasonal service over the Summer and holiday season, say, 3 x week. But which airline is going to bother - especially with the pain-in-behind processes to get frequencies and space at GRU?

With a 3x/week flight, tickets would have to be priced cheaply in order to compete with connections over EWR/ATL/MIA/IAH/DFW/IAD. Sure, there is an appeal to a non-stop flight, but only if it's scheduled on the days you'd want to fly.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
But the Azores are pretty low yielding as well and that does not stop SATA from offering service there.

Sure, but there are few competitive options to get to the Azores.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
I would argue that *A has better feed at BOS than JFK.

That's like comparing wretched to horrendous. JFK doesn't necessarily need the connecting traffic for Star Alliance carriers because they're already getting feed traffic at the hubs with flights to JFK. The demand for BOS is much, much lower, so the possibility of connections at BOS would be more important in helping to sustain a small-Star-hub-to-BOS flight


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 3038 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 19):
Why would they connect pax to Europe here? From GIG/GRU to FRA/MUC/ZRH the route goes along the coast of Brazil, then across to Africa passing the Cape Verdean Islands, the Canaries, and getting close to LIS. It doesn't go anywhere near BOS (that would add 2500 miles).

And BOS-CDG doesn't go anywhere near ATL, and BOS-FRA doesn't go anywhere near ORD/IAD. You can find countless examples of that. It's called revenue management. If the price is right people will take it. TAM has limited frequencies to many of the European cities they serve. If the demand is higher than what they can offer, they have to route passengers via other cities with their partners. That's one of the strenghts of alliances.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 20):
While there is some O&D business and tourism, the bulk of the North American traffic on EK and EY is transiting the Middle East.

Very true but ironicaly, I have a Brazilian co-worker here in Boston who just went on vacation to Dubai for 2 weeks. How's that for a on-topic exception  Smile


25 HUYfan : DL/NW should make Boston a hub. Their 757s would give them considerable reach into europe. I think there is a market for Barcelona Brussels Copenhagen
26 Airbazar : Are you familiar with BOS? The airport is not very conductive to hub operations. There are tremendous physical limitations (space and runway); logist
27 Atlanta : BOS is definitely not the airport for DL/NW to start a hub. Have you ever been to BOS? Atlanta
28 Shamrock604 : EI has twice daily A330 flights to DUB. That is quite enough of a market that should at least sustain a competitor with a 757 service, and is indeed
29 LH423 : No doubt. Dubai is counting on people like your friend. I mean, you don't build a ski slope in the middle of the desert unless you're going for the '
30 Shamrock604 : Indeed. Dubai is "Bling central". Everything is for show, but sadly that means it can draw somewhat of a pretencious crowd. It is still worth seeing
31 BOStonsox : Yeah, BOS won't make a good hub but that can be a good thing. Competition keeps fares low and there are a dozen international carriers here. Compare
32 DeltaL1011man : More than likely if A had FIS we would see a few TATL from Delta. Also if old Leo had his way BOS would be large than JFK. (this was the hole point o
33 B752OS : I believe that 30-40% mark is a bit too high. Perhaps during the summer there may be about 20-25% of connecting traffic on BOS-FRA, but the numbers n
34 Aer : On this note, TA did start a SAL-BOS flight a while a go, but called it quits. I guess it's to close to NYC.
35 ChrisNH : The economy needs to come roaring back and discretionary dollars need to start flowing again for any airline to have half a chance at success on what
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