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BA Shelves OpenSkies Expansion  
User currently offlineBeyondbristol From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 60 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8215 times:

The Financial Times is reporting that BA will not be continuing it's expansion of OpenSkies at the moment.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ff7c32a-e...0-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

The jist is that out of the remaining 757s to be phased out of BA's fleet, no more will be transferred over to the EC operations but will instead be sold off for cash. LoI's to sell the aircraft have been signed. However, Walsh does say that if EC can justify leasing aircraft it is free to stand on its own two feet.

The article also says that flights are not performing as well as hoped - both loads and yields.

Well, I suppose this won't really be a surprise to many of us given the current economic climate and ECs target audience, although fuels price would hopefully have helped a bit. Will this also make EC expansion in the future harder? They now have to actively lease/buy aircraft instead of having them simply transferred over from daddy.

Shame as I have heard the product is really good and reasonably priced. Would probably do well out of other Euro financial centres (Frankfurt, Milan, Madrid) but will have to wait a while.

On another note, can someone remind me when the AF service to LHR-NYC (JFK?) begins? Does anyone think they will be reconsidering given the huge supply of seats and the slowdown in traffic between these two financial centres.

[Edited 2009-01-22 12:36:49]


I'll admit it...I'm a BA & VS cheerleader.
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7976 times:

This is not surprising at all ...
"L'avion" was already on the edge of bankruptcy when BA/EC took them over ...
I wouldn't t be surprised to seen them suspending activities soon.

Quoting Beyondbristol (Thread starter):
can someone remind me when the AF service to LHR-NYC (JFK?) begins?

It was initially planned for June 2009 ... However, no more news or confirmation and flights are not loaded yet in the GDS.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7804 times:

When will the carriers learn to quit creating alter ego and carrier within carrier companies?

Fly under the corporate name as is. Market it as what ever you want, but keep it in house. Use the synergies of the existing company. If the plan can't work otherwise, maybe a good look in the mirror is called for.

$0.02



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7754 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 2):
Fly under the corporate name as is. Market it as what ever you want, but keep it in house. Use the synergies of the existing company

A lot like United PS service. It's a great thing and i'm sure it will last longer than something like openskies which never made a lot of sense to me.


User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7656 times:

Yeah, honestly, why did they have to create a whole new brand ??? Open Skies ???
They should just re-brand it as British Airways.


User currently offlineBaguy From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7616 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Reply 4):
Yeah, honestly, why did they have to create a whole new brand ??? Open Skies ???
They should just re-brand it as British Airways.

I agree. They would probably get more customers if this was to happen as BA is a much more well known name,

Although, isn't one of the reasons they had a seperate name to distance EC's product from BA'S???

BAguy


User currently offlineElevate From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7480 times:

Indeed not a suprise, but a sad sign of the times.Hopefully the current recession won't last for too long!

Quoting Baguy (Reply 5):
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 4):
Yeah, honestly, why did they have to create a whole new brand ??? Open Skies ???
They should just re-brand it as British Airways.

I agree. They would probably get more customers if this was to happen as BA is a much more well known name,

It would of made more sense (in my opinion) since BA is already a worldwide known product and established brand - why start at the beginning again?!?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7402 times:



Quoting Baguy (Reply 5):
Although, isn't one of the reasons they had a seperate name to distance EC's product from BA'S???

Why do they need to distance their product from BA's, though? Certainly, UA doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation for service (indeed, I would argue that-- at least in the States-- UA has a worse reputation than BA), but they seem to pick up passengers for PS and, by all public indications, the PS routes do quite well.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7279 times:

This isn't really new news, has been around for a while.

User currently offlineRivet42 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7242 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Why do they need to distance their product from BA's, though?

I suspect a degree of cynicism - if it does well, it's 'BA/Openskies' - if it flops, it's not really BA at all.

It never really made sense to me, the BA Club World product has such a strong worldwide reputation, trading on that was surely more likely to turn a profit than trying to create something new with some kind of BA-at-a-distance relationship.

Riv'



I travel, therefore I am.
User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7136 times:



Quoting Beyondbristol (Thread starter):
Shame as I have heard the product is really good and reasonably priced. Would probably do well out of other Euro financial centres (Frankfurt, Milan, Madrid) but will have to wait a while.

Doesn't this product undermine their wanting Heathrow to be a hub where they feed traffic from all over Europe to destinations beyond Britain. I transferred at terminal five yesterday and it's quite obvious that the terminal was built with this in mind.

Plus why would a profit seeking company want to enter into a saturated market, like Paris or Frankfurt, where they offer no advantage over Air France or Lufthansa and therefore have no other recourse to attract passengers than to offer lower fares. Don't get me wrong here I'm all for competition but I just don't see the business case. Then again I haven't done the market research that they have.

Also OpenSkies was no way a good brand. I wonder whether if a pan European airline is to be crated whether it could have a national brand like BA or Air France.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8340 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7103 times:
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Hoping the "Open Skies" Laboratory brings soem thigs to main line BA. Prem + is a great class, BA probably doesn't want to put it on the main fleet as it would dilute Club World.

User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6961 times:

Rumour has it BA have already agreed to sell the remaining 757s to DHL, with the last to leave the fleet by 2010.


Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6695 times:



Quoting Beyondbristol (Thread starter):
On another note, can someone remind me when the AF service to LHR-NYC (JFK?) begins? Does anyone think they will be reconsidering given the huge supply of seats and the slowdown in traffic between these two financial centres.

Soon but not 100% when........no AF/DL want to take JFK-LHR to 3-4x daily they may though move it down to a 764 and not a 777



yep.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17443 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6621 times:

This was a silly idea from the beginning that was all but destined to fail. The reality is that long haul international point to point is very difficult to make work, and seldom does.

Quoting Beyondbristol (Thread starter):
On another note, can someone remind me when the AF service to LHR-NYC (JFK?) begins? Does anyone think they will be reconsidering given the huge supply of seats and the slowdown in traffic between these two financial centres.

It is going to look a lot like the OpenSkies experiment. It's too much capacity in a non Skyteam market, never mind the general collapse and economic carnage on the route. I'm not sure why AF is determined to fly it when it'd be much better served by another DL 757.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6616 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
It is going to look a lot like the OpenSkies experiment. It's too much capacity in a non Skyteam market, never mind the general collapse and economic carnage on the route. I'm not sure why AF is determined to fly it when it'd be much better served by another DL 757.

DL doesn't send any 75Es to LHR only 763s and in june (IIRC) only 764s and 333s.



yep.
User currently offlineNcelhr From Vatican City, joined Jul 2006, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6589 times:



Quoting LHR27C (Reply 12):
Rumour has it BA have already agreed to sell the remaining 757s to DHL, with the last to leave the fleet by 2010.

Like the earlier batch, then?
The sad thing is that in the meantime, they're working them to the bare metal (really) with a cosmetic look (torn seats, chipped paint) that's not of BA's standard. Shame on BA.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17443 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6556 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
DL doesn't send any 75Es to LHR only 763s and in june (IIRC) only 764s and 333s.

Point being? No time like the present to start sending one instead of an AF 777.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6549 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
This was a silly idea from the beginning that was all but destined to fail. The reality is that long haul international point to point is very difficult to make work, and seldom does.

Wait a minute, isn't that Boeing's strategy for the 787? And don't they have over 900 orders? Granted the majority of these planes are going to replace the hub to hub machines but surely there aren't 900 to replace?

Some will have been purchased for point to point. Maverick are you saying that this a market that is doomed? The sub-prime of the aviation industry?


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17443 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6496 times:



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 18):

Wait a minute, isn't that Boeing's strategy for the 787?

Yep. That's why the build planes, and not run airlines.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 18):

Some will have been purchased for point to point

Not likely. The RJ was also meant to open up all sorts of point to point routes and the overwhelming majority of them are running in and out of hubs.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4008 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5359 times:
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Does anyone think EC might have been trying to do what Privitair does on a few select routes but with the larger two class 75Ws vs the 319/73G/738s Privitair uses?

It would be nice to see BA upgrade Premium Y on their mainline flights to the offerings they had on EC. It looks like a really nice product-so much better than what they curently offer. A little more leg room is the only thing going for it ....


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5061 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 10):
Plus why would a profit seeking company want to enter into a saturated market, like Paris or Frankfurt, where they offer no advantage over Air France or Lufthansa

I don't agree with this. EC operates to/from ORY and not CDG, the AF "sanctuary".
They offer the only flight to the U.S from his VERY praised airport. The could also get benefits from the easy connections offered by the huge AF domestic network.

But they made several mistakes : Nobody (including them) is able to tell on what market they are positioned and what customer they are targeting. Their "Paryorker" concept is just stupid and certainly not sufficient to create enough traffic for profitability.
EC took over "L'avion" but still, with only 3 planes they offer two unclear different products who compete each other ...

They should make a clear choice : either they want to go or an "all Business" model à la Swiss/Luft/Privatair and in that case the B757 is way too big and not adapted ... either they want to propose an alternative to AF/CDG and offer a traditional Business/Eco product and in that case insist on the easy/convenient use of ORY, proximity / fares, etc ...


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