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Airlines That Operate Competitive Aircraft  
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1259 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

I have always been a little curious about how and why airlines operate sometimes redundant, competitive aircraft. For example, airlines like CX, SQ, EK, and AF who operate both the A343 and the B772ER. Other airlines, like SQ and EK, who operate the A345 and the B77L. Airlines that operate both the A346 and B77W (I don't know if any actually do, as I can't think of any off the top of my head). I know it is especially common in the narrowbody market, as many airlines operate both B738s and A320s, or B73Gs and A319s.

I realize certain aircraft are optimized for different routes, but I can't imagine they're is enough of a difference to justify the cost of different crews, maintenance procedures, etc. Not to mention the differences in efficiency between one type over another. Any info or discussion would be appreciated.


Sic 'em bears
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

DL/NW didn't really have much choice.  Wink

User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2381 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5235 times:
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When making future deals with aircraft manufacturers, airlines operating both Airbus and Boieng are in a much better situation when negotiating new orders & prices.
Simple law of business.



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4725 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5212 times:



Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter):
For example, airlines like CX, SQ, EK, and AF who operate both the A343 and the B772ER.

You are aware that the 772 is actually quite a bit bigger than the A343? As a side note, SQ hasn't operated the 343 in a long time.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

Three examples from Germany:

Lufthansa has ordered the 737-400 and A320 to replace the 727. The reason behind this was that they were very skeptical on how the A320 will perform.

They also have ordered the 747-8I despite the A380 on order, you can argue that these two aircraft don´t really compete but many airlines see it this way despite LH and Boeing seeing it otherwise.

Air Berlin as a long time Boeing customer wanted to expand and wanted to have a good deal from Boeing, but Boeing did not make a good offer so they bought A32x instead (but placed an order for nore 737s a few months later)



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineOkapi From France, joined Jun 2006, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

Keep in mind that all aircraft are not necessarily available at once. Delivery of a large order often spans over years. For example, the A330 may be ordered today and delivered months if not years before the 787. Hence an airline ordering, say, 5 A330 to cope with traffic increase projections until delivery of the 787, say in 4 years. When the Dreamliner joins the fleet the airline still has the Airbus twinjet and a debt linked to these aircraft. No need for the airline to get rid of the Airbus as those still have a value and trained staff to fly them. We'll see many A330 operators operating the 787 until they phase out the first aircraft.

User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1259 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5205 times:



Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
You are aware that the 772 is actually quite a bit bigger than the A343?

I was under the impression that the capacity was only marginally different, cargo excepted. I have travelled on both and thought they seemed similar, although my experience on the A343 was in J only, while I have done both F,J,and Y on the 772. This didn't allow me to take the full size of the plane into account for the A343.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5076 times:

UA operates A320s and 737s. So does US Airways. I think they like to see how each type performs so they can be re-allocated on various routes....

Also AC UA and DL operate Bombardier CRJs and Embraer ERJs as well as other airlines around the world. No real concern regarding competitive aircraft has surfaced...

[Edited 2009-01-26 09:34:32]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

QF, KE, AC are part of a number of airlines that operate A330 and B767

User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3131 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4755 times:

As a result of the merger between AI and IC, the future AI will have:

1) B737-800 as well as the A320/321

2) B787 as well as the A330


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4656 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 8):
QF, KE, AC are part of a number of airlines that operate A330 and B767

But they aren't equivalent aircraft. For example, AC 763s have 211 seats compared to 265 on the 333. The meet different demands on different routes.

Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter):
Airlines that operate both the A346 and B77W (I don't know if any actually do, as I can't think of any off the top of my head).

Qatar Airways is one, but they're in the process of replacing their 346s with 77Ws.


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User currently offlineVhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

One of the main reasons this happens is through acquisitions ie. DL now has very large fleets of both their initial 737NG aircraft and A32x aircraft inherited from NW. Not quite the same thing but US East A32x aircraft are CFM powered while US West A32x are IAE powered. I don't think it's a major problem if they have large fleets of either type. It's more problematic if an airline has say 100+ 737 aircraft and inherit say 10 A320 aircraft.

I think it also works as an advantage to some airlines to use as a bargaining chip when ordering new aircraft. if an airline has a roughly equal fleet of say 787 and A350 aircraft and want more aircraft then Boeing and Airbus will do more to try to outdo each over to secure the order knowing that the customer could have just as easily gone with the other company.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Qatar Airways is one, but they're in the process of replacing their 346s with 77Ws.

So is Etihad. Emirates almost operated both types but cancelled their A346's

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 7):
Also AC UA and DL operate Bombardier CRJs and Embraer ERJs

I don't know enough about AC Jazz. But UA and DL and US legacy carriers in general don't actually own any CRJ or ERJ's they are operated by dozens of different regional carriers which the majority are independent from the legacy carriers. All the legacy carriers do is contract these regional airlines to fly in their brand to smaller communities from the main airlines hub.


Vhq



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4148 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
But they aren't equivalent aircraft. For example, AC 763s have 211 seats compared to 265 on the 333. The meet different demands on different routes.

That's the choice of the airline though. The fact is that 767 and 330 are competing aircraft.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3902 times:



Quoting Vhqpa (Reply 11):
I think it also works as an advantage to some airlines to use as a bargaining chip when ordering new aircraft. if an airline has a roughly equal fleet of say 787 and A350 aircraft and want more aircraft then Boeing and Airbus will do more to try to outdo each over to secure the order knowing that the customer could have just as easily gone with the other company.

That is true in many circumstances. However it also works the other way... some airlines get really great prices from Boeing or Airbus to have an entire Boeing or Airbus fleet (ie NZ went with Boeing to have all its Longhaul fleet as Boeing aircraft (763,744,772ER,77W,789, plus lots of cheap options on 777/787).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Turkish Airlines :

B737NG + A319/A320/A321

A330/A340 + B777


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8469 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3682 times:
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SA have 738s and 319s because of politics. I realise they are not head to head competitors but at one stage SA had 320s and 732s as well. The American CEO wanted an all Boeing fleet, he ordered 738s then was booted, the next guy went "all" Airbus (that was the plan but as we know with SA the plans change with the weather). Originally all the 738s were supposed to be gone by the end of the year but who knows what the current status is.


After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineSeabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5856 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3433 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 12):
That's the choice of the airline though. The fact is that 767 and 330 are competing aircraft.

The 764 is roughly the same size as the A332. It's plausible to argue that the A332 and 767 compete. The A333 and any 767 (but especially a 763) are so far apart in size that they don't compete directly.

Would you argue that the 763 and 772 are competing aircraft? The A333 is only marginally smaller than the 772.


User currently offlineFlyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 613 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

I expect that large airlines like AF AA DL/NW UA LH KE JL NH over time will all have both manufacturers in their fleets and even wide and narrowbodies.

AA may be an exception, but the larger airlines get the less the need to have one type only. Also we shouldn't forget the political effect which may play a larger role in the future again.

regards

Flyglobal.


User currently offlineAfterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2739 times:



Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter):
SQ and EK, who operate the A345 and the B77L

SQ doesn't operate 77L.


User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1708 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Egyptair has a certain degree of fleet overlap where they could benefit from fleet rationalization.

Short-medium haul:
B737-500-104 (8J, 96Y)
B737-800-160 (16J, 144Y)
A320-145 (16J/129Y)
A321-185 (10J/175Y)

Operating four different narrowbodies with similar operation requirements isn' the best idea.

Medium-long haul:
A330-200-268 (24J, 244Y) RANGE 12,500 km
A340-200 260 (12F, 24J, 244Y) RANGE 14,800km
The A332 is probably more economical, and the newest (the A340s have been around since the 1990s IIRC). While the A343 has the range to do more (it currently does CAI-YUL seasonal, CAI-NRT/KIX and a few mediumhauls ), MS should outfit itself with the A330.


User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2533 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 7):
UA operates A320s and 737s. So does US Airways. I think they like to see how each type performs so they can be re-allocated on various routes....

Well in US Airways' (and I think United's) case, it wasn't a matter of ordering two types to see how they perform. US hasn't ordered a 737 in a very long time, and they are currently retiring them. They switched completely to Airbus back in 1997 or 98 when they placed a very large order.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

There are cases where the in house maintenance needs a multitude of in house planes to be able to offer these services to others. And as soon as the fleet size is bigger than 20 each, the penalty for flying two types gets lower.

User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1259 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2260 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
B737NG + A319/A320/A321

This is an excellent example. I flew on a TK B738, got off of it, and got on a TK A320. It is my understanding that their A32X series aircraft are almost purely for intraturkey flights, while the 738s fly regional routes. While I found the A320s and A321s on which I flew much more attractive, updated, and pleasant inside, it was obvious TK had outfitted them for domestic duty. crowded 

The seat pitch on the 738 was much more comfortable, although that plane looks 20 years old inside to me. The PSU s look like something from a 727. I am all about the Boeings, but I do have to say that Airbus does certainly make a more attractive and updated interior in their narrowbodies. I feel that way on every 737 I fly on though, whether from AA, SW, DL, etc.

I think it is odd that TK has selected for their A32Xs for domestic routes while the B738s do regional. I was under the impression that from an efficiency perspective, the 2 aircraft were optimized oppositely.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Actually, I think most of the major world Airlines have operated at one time or another of their history, "competitive" aircraft.

It started as soon as in the 50s with some operating both the DC8 and the B707 (Pan AM), then the DC9 & the Caravelle (UA, Alitalia), MD80s/737 (SAS, AA), L1011 & DC10 (DL, BA) etc ...


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