AA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1362 posts, RR: 6 Posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5711 times:
I have always been a little curious about how and why airlines operate sometimes redundant, competitive aircraft. For example, airlines like CX, SQ, EK, and AF who operate both the A343 and the B772ER. Other airlines, like SQ and EK, who operate the A345 and the B77L. Airlines that operate both the A346 and B77W (I don't know if any actually do, as I can't think of any off the top of my head). I know it is especially common in the narrowbody market, as many airlines operate both B738s and A320s, or B73Gs and A319s.
I realize certain aircraft are optimized for different routes, but I can't imagine they're is enough of a difference to justify the cost of different crews, maintenance procedures, etc. Not to mention the differences in efficiency between one type over another. Any info or discussion would be appreciated.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7182 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5643 times:
Three examples from Germany:
Lufthansa has ordered the 737-400 and A320 to replace the 727. The reason behind this was that they were very skeptical on how the A320 will perform.
They also have ordered the 747-8I despite the A380 on order, you can argue that these two aircraft don´t really compete but many airlines see it this way despite LH and Boeing seeing it otherwise.
Air Berlin as a long time Boeing customer wanted to expand and wanted to have a good deal from Boeing, but Boeing did not make a good offer so they bought A32x instead (but placed an order for nore 737s a few months later)
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
Okapi From France, joined Jun 2006, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5641 times:
Keep in mind that all aircraft are not necessarily available at once. Delivery of a large order often spans over years. For example, the A330 may be ordered today and delivered months if not years before the 787. Hence an airline ordering, say, 5 A330 to cope with traffic increase projections until delivery of the 787, say in 4 years. When the Dreamliner joins the fleet the airline still has the Airbus twinjet and a debt linked to these aircraft. No need for the airline to get rid of the Airbus as those still have a value and trained staff to fly them. We'll see many A330 operators operating the 787 until they phase out the first aircraft.
AA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1362 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5641 times:
Quoting JRadier (Reply 3): You are aware that the 772 is actually quite a bit bigger than the A343?
I was under the impression that the capacity was only marginally different, cargo excepted. I have travelled on both and thought they seemed similar, although my experience on the A343 was in J only, while I have done both F,J,and Y on the 772. This didn't allow me to take the full size of the plane into account for the A343.
Vhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4735 times:
One of the main reasons this happens is through acquisitions ie. DL now has very large fleets of both their initial 737NG aircraft and A32x aircraft inherited from NW. Not quite the same thing but US East A32x aircraft are CFM powered while US West A32x are IAE powered. I don't think it's a major problem if they have large fleets of either type. It's more problematic if an airline has say 100+ 737 aircraft and inherit say 10 A320 aircraft.
I think it also works as an advantage to some airlines to use as a bargaining chip when ordering new aircraft. if an airline has a roughly equal fleet of say 787 and A350 aircraft and want more aircraft then Boeing and Airbus will do more to try to outdo each over to secure the order knowing that the customer could have just as easily gone with the other company.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10): Qatar Airways is one, but they're in the process of replacing their 346s with 77Ws.
So is Etihad. Emirates almost operated both types but cancelled their A346's
Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 7): Also AC UA and DL operate Bombardier CRJs and Embraer ERJs
I don't know enough about AC Jazz. But UA and DL and US legacy carriers in general don't actually own any CRJ or ERJ's they are operated by dozens of different regional carriers which the majority are independent from the legacy carriers. All the legacy carriers do is contract these regional airlines to fly in their brand to smaller communities from the main airlines hub.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 5123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4338 times:
Quoting Vhqpa (Reply 11): I think it also works as an advantage to some airlines to use as a bargaining chip when ordering new aircraft. if an airline has a roughly equal fleet of say 787 and A350 aircraft and want more aircraft then Boeing and Airbus will do more to try to outdo each over to secure the order knowing that the customer could have just as easily gone with the other company.
That is true in many circumstances. However it also works the other way... some airlines get really great prices from Boeing or Airbus to have an entire Boeing or Airbus fleet (ie NZ went with Boeing to have all its Longhaul fleet as Boeing aircraft (763,744,772ER,77W,789, plus lots of cheap options on 777/787).
Andz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8556 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4118 times:
SA have 738s and 319s because of politics. I realise they are not head to head competitors but at one stage SA had 320s and 732s as well. The American CEO wanted an all Boeing fleet, he ordered 738s then was booted, the next guy went "all" Airbus (that was the plan but as we know with SA the plans change with the weather). Originally all the 738s were supposed to be gone by the end of the year but who knows what the current status is.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
Seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6890 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3869 times:
Quoting Swiftski (Reply 12): That's the choice of the airline though. The fact is that 767 and 330 are competing aircraft.
The 764 is roughly the same size as the A332. It's plausible to argue that the A332 and 767 compete. The A333 and any 767 (but especially a 763) are so far apart in size that they don't compete directly.
Would you argue that the 763 and 772 are competing aircraft? The A333 is only marginally smaller than the 772.
Operating four different narrowbodies with similar operation requirements isn' the best idea.
A330-200-268 (24J, 244Y) RANGE 12,500 km
A340-200 260 (12F, 24J, 244Y) RANGE 14,800km
The A332 is probably more economical, and the newest (the A340s have been around since the 1990s IIRC). While the A343 has the range to do more (it currently does CAI-YUL seasonal, CAI-NRT/KIX and a few mediumhauls ), MS should outfit itself with the A330.
RW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2969 times:
Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 7): UA operates A320s and 737s. So does US Airways. I think they like to see how each type performs so they can be re-allocated on various routes....
Well in US Airways' (and I think United's) case, it wasn't a matter of ordering two types to see how they perform. US hasn't ordered a 737 in a very long time, and they are currently retiring them. They switched completely to Airbus back in 1997 or 98 when they placed a very large order.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4530 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2954 times:
There are cases where the in house maintenance needs a multitude of in house planes to be able to offer these services to others. And as soon as the fleet size is bigger than 20 each, the penalty for flying two types gets lower.
This is an excellent example. I flew on a TK B738, got off of it, and got on a TK A320. It is my understanding that their A32X series aircraft are almost purely for intraturkey flights, while the 738s fly regional routes. While I found the A320s and A321s on which I flew much more attractive, updated, and pleasant inside, it was obvious TK had outfitted them for domestic duty.
The seat pitch on the 738 was much more comfortable, although that plane looks 20 years old inside to me. The PSU s look like something from a 727. I am all about the Boeings, but I do have to say that Airbus does certainly make a more attractive and updated interior in their narrowbodies. I feel that way on every 737 I fly on though, whether from AA, SW, DL, etc.
I think it is odd that TK has selected for their A32Xs for domestic routes while the B738s do regional. I was under the impression that from an efficiency perspective, the 2 aircraft were optimized oppositely.