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Airspacemag:Avro Canada Might Have Been Jet Leader  
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

The Smithsonian's Air & Space Magazine has an interesting article on a subject that has been discussed several times here on A.net...

Woe Canada
The only thing that kept Canada from beating the U.S. to a jet airliner was Canada.

"The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner could out-climb and out-cruise any airliner on North American drawing boards. It also needed less runway than anything the airlines had in their fleets and could fly higher, faster, and, a cost analysis later found, cheaper. The airplane was coveted by at least six airlines, the U.S. Air Force and Navy, the U.S. Civil Aviation Authority, and even billionaire Howard Hughes. Yet despite all the interest, seven years later the jet was put to the cutting torches. Its nose section sits forlornly at the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa, and the rest of the pieces were long ago sold to an Ontario scrap dealer."

http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Woe-Canada.html

It makes you think "what if" the C102 had been ordered and not "sabotaged" by the Canadian Government. It also makes one think of all the aircraft that had potential that were cancelled by governments and what could have been.


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEyeno1 From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3665 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
Yet despite all the interest, seven years later the jet was put to the cutting torches. Its nose section sits forlornly at the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa, and the rest of the pieces were long ago sold to an Ontario scrap dealer."

The have the nose of the Jetlliner up in Ottawa? I know they have the CF105 (Arrow) nose but don't remember seeing this one.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3666 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
It makes you think "what if" the C102 had been ordered and not "sabotaged" by the Canadian Government.

In my opinion, it was too small to be economic, only 36 seats if not mistaken. And its range was only about 1,000 miles, if that, so it would only have been usable on relatively short domestic routes. It also wasn't very fast due to the unswept wings. At some point AC (then TCA) decided against so they had no launch customer.

AC still became the first operator of turbine-powered aircraft in North America when they put their first Viscount into service in 1955, and eventually operated a fleet of 51. I'm sure the Viscount proved to be much more profitable and versatile on AC routes than the Avro Jetliner would ever have been.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
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It might have succeeded for awhile as a regional jet, but larger planes like the 707 and DC-8 would still have become the more successful families.

[Edited 2009-01-27 13:50:46]

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Hmmmm....where's the Bombardier family when you need them? I think they were still happy with just making snowmobiles (err, snow machines as you guys up north call 'em Big grin ) in the early '50s  Wink


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3577 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
"The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner could out-climb and out-cruise any airliner on North American drawing boards. It also needed less runway than anything the airlines had in their fleets and could fly higher, faster, and, a cost analysis later found, cheaper.

One must also wonder if, in true Canadian aircraft fashion, provisions were also built into the airframe for it to be mounted on amphibious floats Big grin



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3516 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
In my opinion, it was too small to be economic, only 36 seats if not mistaken. And its range was only about 1,000 miles, if that, so it would only have been usable on relatively short domestic routes.

Apparently not according to the author of the article...  Smile

"The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner could out-climb and out-cruise any airliner on North American drawing boards. It also needed less runway than anything the airlines had in their fleets and could fly higher, faster, and, a cost analysis later found, cheaper."

"Floyd looked even further ahead than the TCA spec. “We decided from the outset…to allow for future development of the type,” he wrote in his book The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner. The team was hoping eventually to attain cruise speeds of 425 to 450 mph with a 40- to 50-passenger range of 1,500 miles."

"Meanwhile, the Air Transport Board released a study of the TCA route. The board said that running the Jetliner on the popular Toronto-Montreal-New York route, despite each leg being well short of the Jetliner’s design range, would be 20 percent cheaper than using North Stars. Not only that, the Jetliner could do the routes in two-thirds the time with three airplanes—one fewer than the number of North Stars required. And, the board wrote, as the lengths of the legs along a route grew, costs would improve, producing even greater net revenues."

One has to bear in mind that this was the first North American jetliner protoype (following the Comet by 2 weeks). And it was not permitted to have the engines that the designers originally wanted which would have provided better range on the protoype.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
It might have succeeded for awhile as a regional jet, but larger planes like the 707 and DC-8 would still have become the more successful families.

It first flew 5 years before the "Dash 80" and 7 years before the 707-120 so one can assume that, as quoted above, Avro would have continued developing the C102. That is not to imply that Avro would have had any greater success than DH did with the Comet... we can only speculate.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3478 times:
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Quoting Planemaker (Reply 6):
It first flew 5 years before the "Dash 80" and 7 years before the 707-120 so one can assume that, as quoted above, Avro would have continued developing the C102.

But the design doesn't look like it could scale to the sizes - or the speeds - that the 707 and DC-8 could. For example, could it fly a non-stop TATL routing? Or did it have the legs to make the trans-pacific stages that the 707 and DC-8 could?

Avro certainly was a solid aerospace engineering company so I am certainly not dismissing the model out of hand. Like Comet, it could have proven to be a solid regional plane.

[Edited 2009-01-27 15:57:26]

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

One could argue over future developments, but from Wiki it says: "The C102 had been designed by Chief Designer James C. Floyd for the Trans Canada Airlines (TCA) requirement of 1946. The requirement called for a 36-seat aircraft with a cruising speed of 425 miles per hour (684 km/h), a range of 1,200 miles (1,900 km), an average distance between stops of 250 miles (400 km) and longest single flight of 500 miles (800 km). The difference between the range and maximum airport distances was to allow for the required 45 minutes stacking and flight to get to a 120 mile (190 km) distant alternate airport in a 20 mph (30 km/h) headwind. The aircraft also needed to be able to operate from existing 4,000 ft (1,200 m) runways." So the plane was designed to a specification/requirement and it met it.

It also says it was conceived as a jet from the start, but I'm curious if that is a bit of a stretch given the looks of the thing.

Also, though it was quick in the air it seems it may have been a little too quick - the pilots refused to fly the plane after its first airmail run due to a mysterious cracking sound heard along the way. Funny what the problem turned out to be, what they did to solve it, and what they could have done instead.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3430 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
But the design doesn't look like it could scale to the sizes - or the speeds - that the 707 and DC-8 could...Like Comet, it could have proven to be a solid regional plane.

I think that was the point. One need not compare it to later, larger models to accept that it was at the time far ahead of its main domestic competitors, and early success would likely have led to the development of variants and/or new types able to achieve the routes you mentioned.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
err, snow machines as you guys up north call 'em

No, they're snowmobiles here too. Here in the west they're generally called 'sleds' by those that take 'em up slopes most of us couldn't ski down. I think many easterners still term them 'skidoos'; which is similar to calling every copier a Xerox or every tissue a Kleenex.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3405 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 8):
It also says it was conceived as a jet from the start, but I'm curious if that is a bit of a stretch given the looks of the thing.

Judging from the CF105 Canuck, also a straight wing Avro jet, I would say yes that it was designed as a jet from the start.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5416 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Every time I think about how many great Canadian planes ALMOST made it to production, I just want to curl up in a dark corner and take up drinking again...


What the...?
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3390 times:
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Fascinating thread, Planemaker -- thanks for getting it started. I've seen the bird fly (not recently of course) because my father was an Avro engineer in the 1950s. He was working on the Arrow (hence my monikor), but I remember him saying many times that he thought the airliner was the true future of the company.

Floyd was a brilliant designer and there's no doubt in my mind that given an enthusiastic response to the airliner, he would have sketched out a few later variants to step up the performance, likely with swept wings. Keep in mind that the Arrow was also his brainchild, and he was well ahead of the pack on that one.

But in this country we eat our young, especially the smart ones. The government ordered Avro to stop work on the airliner so it could concentrate on churning out CF-100s to help fight the cold war, and of course develop the Arrow.

By the way, the only performance criterion in which the North Star was never surpassed was the production of noise.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3382 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
It might have succeeded for awhile as a regional jet, but larger planes like the 707 and DC-8 would still have become the more successful families.

But as we see many times, once a company has a strong market presence they can announce a new product and many customers will wait for that new product to arrive instead of potentially switching to the other guy(s) straight away.

Boeing announces 707 but Avro Canada announces their competitor.... assuming you have no AC C102s you might lean towards the 707, but if you are a major C102 operator and AC is smart enough to offer similarity between current & future models the bean counters at the airlines go hmmmm we could save money long term by staying with AC and although interested in the Boeing offering they hold out on any commitment.

Of course... we are just talking theory and not reality.. the history books wont allow us to see what Avro Canada could have gone on to do had things being more favorable towards them being successful.


User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
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Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Woe-Canada.html

Interresting article,
-here is another one with some pictures...
http://www.avroarrow.org/Jetliner/JetlinerIntro.html

Years ago I saw the movie "Fate is the Hunter" with Glenn Ford (a Canadian actor)
The "airliner-prop" that crashed in that movie looked like a mock-up of the C102

Scooter01

[Edited 2009-01-27 18:06:10]


"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3321 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
Judging from the CF105 Canuck, also a straight wing Avro jet, I would say yes that it was designed as a jet from the start.

Just some clarification:
The CF-105 is the Arrow.
The CF-100 is the Canuck.

I guess what I'm wondering is whether someone took the CF-102 from an existing prop plane but changed things so it would simply use jets from the beginning, or are there specific design features in the CF-102 not found on prop counterparts (well, apart from the jet engines). For example, do the nose, airfoil, wing root, tail, stabilizers, etc. feature anything specific to a jet (apart from the wing box)?

For example, here's a Lancaster bomber fitted with jets:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/avro_lancastrianjet.php

It has a different nose and tail cone, but what else is different from the original? (I would presume there might not be anything else different - it was not intended as a jet powered replacement but only as a test bed).

There was the Avro Ashton, based on the Tudor piston airliner. And the 688 Tudor.

I'm just curious about specific design features of the CF-102


User currently offlineYXXMIKE From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Having done many projects on the Avro Arrow myself and having done quite a bit of research about both the Arrow project and then the Iroquois engine I fell across the jetliner project as well. Canada could have had a chance to be a global leader in a broad range of commercial as well as military planes. Politics and in particular John Diefenbaker killed what could have been a huge Canadian legacy.

While doing one of my first high school projects on the Avro (about 8 years ago) I found an interesting article that detailed where all the top engineers of the Avro project ended up working. For so many it was off to Nasa and work on the Apollo 11 mission and even more ended up building a plane called the concord; many people believe that Canadian brain drain started in the eighties but the reality is that Canada has been shipping its smartest people all over the world for much longer than that!

Canadian aviation is something that I am truly proud of though, Canadians have built some of the world's best machines and have been part of aviation history almost since the beginning. Planes like the Beaver, Twin Otter, Dash-8 etc have helped one big country keep in contact from coast to coast. It has just been unfortunate that we couldn't become the world leaders that we should have  Wink


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3268 times:



Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 16):
I found an interesting article that detailed where all the top engineers of the Avro project ended up working. For so many it was off to Nasa and work on the Apollo 11 mission and even more ended up building a plane called the concord

Many migrated south after being headhunted by Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works; providing indispensable expertise towards the development of such projects as the U2, SR-71 and other such landmark aircraft.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5416 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

Diefenbaker is a name I've tried my best to purge from my memory.


What the...?
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Face it, Rolls Royce killed this plane, they didn´t want it in production with their engines.
Problem was that Canada didn´t run their own "operation paperclip" so no domestic engines.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3034 times:
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Quoting Alessandro (Reply 19):
Problem was that Canada didn´t run their own "operation paperclip" so no domestic engines.

I don't think engines would have been that big a hurdle. Orenda made some pretty good ones -- turned the F-86 from a very good fighter to a great fighter. And lost in all the emotion over the demise of the Arrow is what should have been a similar level of angst over the demise of the Iroquois. The first Iroquois-powered Arrow was just coming off the production line when Dief cancelled the whole program, and it never flew.

The Jetliner used the RR powerplants because in 1948 Orenda was just getting of the ground (so to speak) and literally nothing else was available. If there had been a push to go into commercial production, I'm guessing that Orenda would have found a way to contribute. The Orenda that powered the first Canadair Sabres put out 6300 pounds of thrust -- similar to the 6500 pounds from Floyd's first Choice -- the RR AJ65. The last Orenda, put in the Sabre Mk 6, produced about 7500 pounds of thrust. I'm sure those engines could have been adapted to the jetliner. Hell, Canadair had to "fatten" the Sabre to get it in, but they did it quite successfully.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1628 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

One has to remember the mission in which this plane was meant to fly. Also, of more importance, is the EXISTING airports (at the time) this plane could have flown into. With its smaller size compared to the Comet and 707, the little C102 could have easily serviced many more airports immediately, without major costs to airport infrastructure. Was it perfect? No. But it would have been a starting point to which AVRO could have built on.



Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 16):
Politics and in particular John Diefenbaker killed what could have been a huge Canadian legacy.

When you look at the Airliner and Arrow technology, it doesn't take much to see where things could have went. These planes would have laid the basis for a HUGE aeronautical industry in Canada.... it only took 5 decades (and many mergers / aquisitions) to get back to a more respectable level of production.

I honestly don't believe "Dief" was acting alone, when the projects were cancelled. The Arrow in particular, was so far ahead of its time, that in certain criteria it would have surpassed a number of NEWER F-series fighters that were produced south of the border.

Interesting that a number of Arrow designers ended up with NASA, and the moon project...



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2861 times:



Quoting Arrow (Reply 20):
I don't think engines would have been that big a hurdle. Orenda made some pretty good ones -- turned the F-86 from a very good fighter to a great fighter. And lost in all the emotion over the demise of the Arrow is what should have been a similar level of angst over the demise of the Iroquois. The first Iroquois-powered Arrow was just coming off the production line when Dief cancelled the whole program, and it never flew.

The Jetliner used the RR powerplants because in 1948 Orenda was just getting of the ground (so to speak) and literally nothing else was available. If there had been a push to go into commercial production, I'm guessing that Orenda would have found a way to contribute. The Orenda that powered the first Canadair Sabres put out 6300 pounds of thrust -- similar to the 6500 pounds from Floyd's first Choice -- the RR AJ65. The last Orenda, put in the Sabre Mk 6, produced about 7500 pounds of thrust. I'm sure those engines could have been adapted to the jetliner. Hell, Canadair had to "fatten" the Sabre to get it in, but they did it quite successfully.

Enlighten me of the Orenda, when did it make it´s maiden flight?
Don´t you think it would´ve ended similar to another project Howard Hughes was involved
in with military engines converted to civilian, namely the CV880 and CV990?


User currently offlineYXXMIKE From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2801 times:



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 21):
I honestly don't believe "Dief" was acting alone, when the projects were cancelled. The Arrow in particular, was so far ahead of its time, that in certain criteria it would have surpassed a number of NEWER F-series fighters that were produced south of the border.

Yes, after all of the reading I have done and many of the other reports that are available online etc I would have to say I fully agree with your statement. There was nobody else that really wanted this project to be killed off.

I still believe to this day that Canada brings out some of the best and most forward thinkers in Aviation. As much as Avro is a sour point of Canadian history there are other companies that we can look forward to seeing grow and prosper. Viking Air in particular I'd like to see become a bigger force within Canada and the world if given the opportunity.

Onwards!


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2715 times:
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Quoting Alessandro (Reply 22):
Enlighten me of the Orenda, when did it make it´s maiden flight?

This gives you a thumbnail history. First engine was ready about two years after the first jetliner flight -- and might have been a candidate had the airliner moved forward. Good, robust engine -- and the Iroquios raised the bar exponentially.

http://www.orenda.com/About_Us/HR_History/hr_history.html



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
25 Connies4ever : Designed for a different mission. At the time it was a medium range airliner, nowadays might be considered more like an RJ. Dief announced the decisi
26 JoeCanuck : Instead of the Arrow, Canada spent the money on Bomarc missiles, F-5's, F-101's and f-104's. Instead of creating industry and jobs in Canada, we sent
27 Post contains images Se210 : Thought this might be of interest for this discussion. Actual postcard carried on Avro Jetliner in April, 1950 on the way back to Toronto from New Yor
28 Connies4ever : The F-5s didn't come until the Trudeau era. The F-104s were already in the financial system at the time the Arrow was killed, and in fact Canadair pr
29 Denverdanny : This is interesting. However, the problem with contemplating "could have beens" is that there are so many more scenarios that would fracture off. If s
30 JoeCanuck : Perhaps we can learn from our mistakes and spend some money at home, promoting Canadian products, like brand new Buffalos from Viking. Dare we hope?
31 Alessandro : The early B707 had to get waterinjected at the ground (destilled water) to increase the preformance sometimes, so the design was pretty good for the
32 Connies4ever : The new-build Buffalo idea has some merit, as the Buff can fly low and slow, good for SAR work. But the Buffalo has always suffered from poor range,
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