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757's, Why Not Popular Around The Middleast  
User currently offlineHAMAD From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1159 posts, RR: 7
Posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8767 times:

sometimes we take a lot of things forgranted. when i lived in the USA, the 757 scene was very popular, and i enjoyed watching those powerful bird take off and land, and enjoyed riding on them with my favorite airline (united). until i moved back to my home town, Dubai. Granted there are several 757 flights into dxb, but it is not the popular scene i am used to in the USA. is there a reason that airplane did not work here around the Middleast area?


PHX - i miss spotting
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBkircher From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8740 times:

Heres one very simple and obvious reason. If you look at all the Middle East airlines, you will notice that 90% of the airlines fleets consists of planes that hold more than 250 people.

User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8665 times:



Quoting Bkircher (Reply 1):
Heres one very simple and obvious reason. If you look at all the Middle East airlines, you will notice that 90% of the airlines fleets consists of planes that hold more than 250 people.

Oh yeah?

Syrian Arab Airlines does not have a single plane with more than 250 seats.
Royal Jordanian has 22 planes with less and 4 planes with more than 250 seats.
Saudi Arabian has a motley fleet, but more than half of their planes are narrowbodies.
Kuwait Airways has only 6 planes with more than 250 seats.
The largest airplane in MEA's fleet is exactly 250 seats.
Air Arabia and Air Cairo only operate A320s.
Egyptair has 15 planes with more and 26 planes with less than 250 seats.
Gulf Air 9 planes with more and 22 planes with less than 250 seats.
Qatar has 20 airplanes with less, 22 airplanes with more seats, and 18 A330s which have either less or more than 250 seats.
Etihad is approximately 50/50.
Oman Air has maximum 195 seats.
El Al has 21 airplanes with less and 11 planes with more than 250 seats.
Israir has only narrowbodies.
(All info collected from Wikipedia.)

Emirates has a few A330s with 237 seats, so this is probably the only airline in the Middle East where your statement is correct. However, Emirates is not the only airline in the Middle East.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8611 times:



Quoting HAMAD (Thread starter):
is there a reason that airplane did not work here around the Middleast area?

I have been wondering about this same question in regard to Australia & NZ. The B757 is relatively rare out here in the South Pacific.

IMHO, it's to do with frequency. Most routes in the ME( and S.P.) are once or twice daily or even less (on a numerical basis, I know there some that have more frequency). In the USA many (most?) routes are operated more than twice daily, at least between the larger and medium size cities. So as traffic grew US airlines added capacity by increasing frequency, where as in much of the world, including the S.P., capacity was increased by using bigger planes. Hence the B757 was a really good size in USA, but not so else where.

Obviously this is a generalisation and exceptions will be easy to find, but overall I think it holds up as at least one of the reasons the B757 sold relatively poorly outside North America.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8559 times:

It followed in the footsteps of the 727 which was almost the default aircraft in the USA from 1967 to 2000, most of these airlines took the 757 to replace it, while it was never particularly widely used in Asia, Oceania, Europe or the mid east.
RedChili comes up with an interesting list of airlines which flew types the size of the 757.
MEA, Royal Jordanian, Egyptair had old 707s, 727s, 737-200s and so for which the 757 could have been a good replacement. It was probably politics and Boeing had an attitude problem to smaller airlines in the 1990s, which made them lose the big narrowbody market in the mid east to Airbus.
Much of the growth in the mid east came after the 757 was past it. When Qatar, Emirates, Air Arabia, Etihad started their buying spree the 757 was about to go out of production.
Even the 737ng has only modest success in the mid east. I don't want to open a fight here but Airbus seems the first choice for most Mid East airlines unless Boeing comes up with something Airbus can't offer (773ER for instance).



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineGardermoen From Australia, joined Jul 1999, 1520 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8539 times:

Only RAK Airways, based at Ras Al Khaimah flies the B757 - they probably only have a handful of these.

User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8504 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
While it was never particularly widely used in Oceania

The B727 NOT widely used in Oceania??? From 1964 to at least 1984 it was the backbone of the Australian domestic airline fleet. In terms of % of the total fleet it may very well have been a large % of the Oz fleet than it was of the USA fleet. They were every where from POM to HBA, from PER to CHC and every where in between, even on SYD-CBR, under 300 km!

That's why I'm surprised that the B757 was not used in Oz. Ansett replaced theirs with B767s, TAA with A300s and QF replaced their B703s with the B767 (and B737/A320 in all cases) and even B743 eventually on SYD/MEL-PER, but no B757   

Gemuser

[Edited 2009-01-28 02:30:52]


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User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8457 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 6):
The B727 NOT widely used in Oceania???

I guess I underestimated the 727 a bit there because Qantas, Air New Zealand, Air Fiji, Air Niugini etc didn't fly it. But TAA and Ansett only had like 10 each at any given time? Maybe with the smaller market then it might have been seen as dominant still.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7403 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8165 times:



Quoting HAMAD (Thread starter):
is there a reason that airplane did not work here around the Middleast area?

The B757 has not proved to be very popular in Europe either, at least among the Major airlines :
It was only adopted by BA & IB who had a large B757 fleet. None of the other European majors (AF, LH, SR/LX, SK, SN, AZ, TK etc ...) chose it and preferred the A310.
Beside IB and BA, I see only Icelandair and Finnair who operated a few of them.

Most of the Middle East airlines made the same choice at that time : ME, RJ, KU, EK, IY, IR

In Europe, the B757 started a sort of "second career" with Charter airlines, particularly in the U.K, and when it begun to be used on transatlantic flights.


User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7899 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
None of the other European majors (AF, LH, SR/LX, SK, SN, AZ, TK etc ...) chose it and preferred the A310.

What's the connection? From my understanding, the A310 was comparable to the 767, not to the 757. The 757 is smaller (one aisle) and the Airbus equivalent would rather be the A321.

The question why the 757 was not ordered by a greater number of airlines remains open...



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7075 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7846 times:



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 9):
The question why the 757 was not ordered by a greater number of airlines remains open...

I'll offer a couple, the range was not needed in Europe, and once a local equivalent was availabe, that was chosen (A-321). Would be interesting to see how many A-321's are / were in service in Europe, it would at least show whether a market was/is there for an a/c with that number of seats in a single aisle configuration.


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7840 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
Most of the Middle East airlines made the same choice at that time : ME, RJ, KU, EK, IY, IR

I think you have to look at each airline individually to find the answer. E.g. Iran Air never "chose" not to order the 757. The simple truth is that the USA put an embargo on new airplanes to Iran, and I think this happened in the late 1970s, i.e. a few years before the 757 came.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7795 times:



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 7):
I guess I underestimated the 727 a bit there because Qantas, Air New Zealand, Air Fiji, Air Niugini etc didn't fly it. But TAA and Ansett only had like 10 each at any given time? Maybe with the smaller market then it might have been seen as dominant still.

In this time frame Ansett (AN) and TAA (TN) were by far the largest airlines in Oceania, at least in terms of pax and aircraft numbers (QF may have had them beat on RPKs).

They both operated 6 B721s and 12 (I think) B722s and AN operated some extra B722, again 6, I think. Giving a total of 18 for TN & 24 for AN, but only a max of 12 or so each at any one time but this was, I guesstimate, between 25% and 40% of total domestic airline seats. By comparison QF had only 21 B703s, and later up to 10 B742s. QF had NO short/medium range aircraft until the B762 in the mid 1980s.

These are low numbers by today's standards, but you have to remember that aircraft were prohibited imports and their numbers, and more importantly, the $US to pay for them were VERY tightly controlled by the Oz government so utilization and load factors were also very high, because if they weren't you didn't get the $US for more planes.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineConvairNut From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7095 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
Beside IB and BA, I see only Icelandair and Finnair who operated a few of them.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
In Europe, the B757 started a sort of "second career" with Charter airlines, particularly in the U.K, and when it begun to be used on transatlantic flights.

Hmmm, I thought they were very popular with First Choice, Air Europa, Air Europe, LTU, LTE, Condor, Monarch, Transavia, Air Holland, Brittannia,Air 2000,etc.

1050 manufactured and only half are in the USA, there may not be many in Oz or the ME but certainly the balance are predominantly in the EU!



My Hovercraft is filled with eels!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24909 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6968 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 6):
That's why I'm surprised that the B757 was not used in Oz. Ansett replaced theirs with B767s, TAA with A300s and QF replaced their B703s with the B767 (and B737/A320 in all cases) and even B743 eventually on SYD/MEL-PER, but no B757

I expect a major reason was the preference of carriers for a widebody type for competitive reasons. That was also no doubt a factor that affected 757 sales in other parts of the world,especially carriers operating in international markets with restrictive bilaterals which were much more common when the 757 went into service. They often included frequency restrictions which favoured widebodies.

Quoting ConvairNut (Reply 13):
1050 manufactured and only half are in the USA, there may not be many in Oz or the ME but certainly the balance are predominantly in the EU!

About 20% of 757 production went to carriers in Europe. The 757 actually sold slightly better in Europe than the 727.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

I think part of the reason why the 757 is not popular in the Middle East is for the same reason why it isn't popular in Europe, the success of the A320 family. The A321 offers capacity close to the 757-200 but shares commonality with the rest of the A320 family. Unless the greater range and payload capability of the 757 is needed, the A321 makes strong economical sense for airlines operating other A320 family aircraft.

MEA was the first airline in the Middle East to introduce the A321 back in 1997 and while it isn't a particularly popular aircraft in the Middle East either, it's seen greater success than the 757. In addition to MEA, it's currently operated by Royal Jordanian, EgyptAir, Qatar Airways, and Turkish Airlines.

It seems like the size category of the A321/757 isn't particularly popular in the Middle East.

On the other hand, in Europe the A321 has seen strong success going back to the days of the poorer performing A321-100.

Having said all that, I think the 757 is a fabulous aircraft. Living in the US, I'm fortunate to fly on it frequently. In fact, I just flew on it two days ago on United.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7403 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5475 times:



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 9):
What's the connection? From my understanding, the A310 was comparable to the 767, not to the 757. The 757 is smaller (one aisle) and the Airbus equivalent would rather be the A321.

The B757 entered in service in January 1983. It was developed "in tandem" with the B767, the two types share a number of systems and technologies, including a common early generation EFIS flightdeck.

At that time, the choice of aircraft available was not very important... the other alternative to the B767/B757 offer from Boeing was the A300/A310 offer from Airbus.

The A321 became available only some 10 years later in 1993 as part of the A320 family and only at that time, the A321 became a replacement for the B757, just like it became he replacement of the A300 and A310 used on shorts/medium network (AF, LH, SR, TP ...)

Quoting ConvairNut (Reply 13):
I thought they were very popular with First Choice, Air Europa, Air Europe, LTU, LTE, Condor, Monarch, Transavia, Air Holland, Brittannia,Air 2000,etc.

They are. That's exacty what I said : The B757 started a second career in Europe with Charter airlines but was not popular with Major national carriers except BA & IB (Icelandair and Finnair also but on a much smaller scale).


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5407 times:



Quoting Bkircher (Reply 1):
Heres one very simple and obvious reason. If you look at all the Middle East airlines, you will notice that 90% of the airlines fleets consists of planes that hold more than 250 people.

Not only that, but the intra-mid-east flights are not long enough to require the range and power of a 757. A 737, A320, or DC9-class of aircraft is far more suited. This is why Saudi has MD's and others have their A320's.


User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1652 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4981 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 12):
These are low numbers by today's standards, but you have to remember that aircraft were prohibited imports and their numbers, and more importantly, the $US to pay for them were VERY tightly controlled by the Oz government so utilization and load factors were also very high, because if they weren't you didn't get the $US for more planes.

Hmm...don't wanna change the subject but did any Oz airline operate British aircraft (Tridents, BAC-111s etc)?

Great discussion and you guys say it all. The 757 has little use in the Middle East except for a few 'thin longhaul routes' like CMN-KWI or the like.
The ME is generally (as a very general rule of thumb) Airbus short-medium haul, Boeing longhaul.
Apart from WY and MS no ME airline has a substantial 737 fleet. It's all A320 family.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 2):
Emirates has a few A330s with 237 seats, so this is probably the only airline in the Middle East where your statement is correct. However, Emirates is not the only airline in the Middle East.

For a Dubai man, it might as well be Big grin
 Smile  Big grin


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4801 times:



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 18):
Hmm...don't wanna change the subject but did any Oz airline operate British aircraft (Tridents, BAC-111s etc)?

Ho Boy! Is that a story!

To cut it short, Oz airlines did not operate any British jet airliners and did indeed come under immense pressure to buy British jet airlines. They refused point blank and even the government owned TAA got away with it, although both TAA & Ansett had to pay extra import duty for not buying British, although they eventually got it back.

The only post world war two British airliners to see airline service in Oz were the Vickers Viscount, which was basically replaced by the DC-9-30 and the Airspeed Ambassador, three of which were operated by Butler Air Transport on SYD-country NSW routes for a very short time in the 1950s.

The basic problem, in simple terms, was that British airliners were not designed for operation in hot climates nor for long ranges.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4747 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
AF, LH, SR/LX, SK, SN, AZ, TK etc ...) chose it and preferred the A310.

I think that these airlines had a vested interest in Airbus at this time, late 70's early 80's, and the 757 and 767 were being pushed by Boeing.

Quoting ConvairNut (Reply 13):
Hmmm, I thought they were very popular with First Choice, Air Europa, Air Europe, LTU, LTE, Condor, Monarch, Transavia, Air Holland, Brittannia,Air 2000,etc.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
About 20% of 757 production went to carriers in Europe. The 757 actually sold slightly better in Europe than the 727.

You may notice though that the above airlines you mentioned were not Flag carriers of their respective countries.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineERJ135 From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4646 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 19):

The only post world war two British airliners to see airline service in Oz were the Vickers Viscount, which was basically replaced by the DC-9-30 and the Airspeed Ambassador, three of which were operated by Butler Air Transport on SYD-country NSW routes for a very short time in the 1950s.

And of course much more recently the Bae146 which was with QF airlink, East-West and Ansett.



I remember when the DC-3 was new!
User currently onlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3919 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4616 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
They are. That's exacty what I said : The B757 started a second career in Europe with Charter airlines but was not popular with Major national carriers except BA & IB (Icelandair and Finnair also but on a much smaller scale).

It wasn't really a second career though, I think one, or more, of the charter operators were amongst the launch customers for the 757, obviously BA and EA were joint headline launch customers.

Brian.



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User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4589 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
The B757 started a second career in Europe with Charter airlines but was not popular with Major national carriers except BA & IB (Icelandair and Finnair also but on a much smaller scale).

AY also use their seven B752's for holiday charters primarily. Indeed it's not common in Europe, but not that rare in HEL with 757's from AY, BA, FI and Air Finland.


User currently offlineBjwonline From UK - England, joined Mar 2007, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4554 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 6):
That's why I'm surprised that the B757 was not used in Oz

IIRC, I once read that the 767 won over the 757 with QF and AN due to it's cargo capicity and also being a twin aisle, the turn around time was slightly faster for pax to board and de-plane.


25 Viscount724 : Three European charter/leisure carriers, Monarch Airlines and Air Europe in the UK and LTU in Germany, were among the first seven 757 customers.
26 Kiwiandrew : In fact when you look at the sales of the 757 globally it is not so much a matter of it not being popular in the Middle East , it was not really popul
27 Vhqpa : PX now fly two 752 leased from FI although I'm not sure if it's a permanent lease or just temporary. Vhq
28 Kiwiandrew : good point , I had forgotten about that , nevertheless , the fact that 2 a/c form a significant part of the total civil ( I also forgot about the RNZ
29 QFYMML : I seem to recall the same regarding the twin-aisle boarding/de-planing thing.
30 Directorguy : Thanks, cool....didn't know all that! It's such a shame the VC-10 wasn't as popular as the B707-it was, after all, suited for 'hot high and heavy' lo
31 Gemuser : D'oh! There's always one that gets away Not to overly nitpick but QF never operated Bae146, rather NJS (National Jets Systems) operated it for them.
32 Gemuser : The VC-10 was out preformed/capacity by the 320 series B707 and by the time the SVC-10 came out it was too late QF already had B703s and NZ (the only
33 Vhqpa : correct Ansett WA was the first 146 operator in 1985. then AN re-equipped East West Fokker F28 fleet with 143's in 1991 the same year that Australian
34 Raffik : I read that MEA was interested in acquiring Boeing jets as a replacement to their 707, 720 and 747 fleet in the 90s with Boeing 757s and 767s but Boei
35 413X3 : Simple. Because Airbus had a comparable offering, and the Middle East is more friendly with Europe than America
36 Directorguy : Wrong assumption. It has little to do with politics. It's all about the operational requirements of an airline. It just so happens that Boeing is bet
37 Raffik : With all respect, I would say that Airbus has had a better relationship with the Middle East than Boeing in the last 25 years, but that is changing no
38 Directorguy : It's little to do with politics. As I said, its all about the operational requirements of an airline. Before the 777s came, the 767 were in operation,
39 MillwallSean : Politics does play a role in certain purchases at least. SV MD90 were a nice package put together by Clinton if I remember it correctly. Egyptair has
40 Raffik : By the time most ME carriers were renewing their fleets, the 757 was already old news. The A321, A320 and A319 were a lot more technologically advanvc
41 Directorguy : Clearly El Al is a good example of a 'political' airline. All Boeing. All American. Since it seems to be restricted by politics, then that's why it o
42 PlaneWasted : Isn't it just too old to be popular for the big carriers in the Middle East? Way to old for Etihad, Emirates and Qatar at least.
43 Raffik : Clearly too late now for the ME carriers to use the 757 as it's out of production. What I believed the question was to be is why ME carriers didn't or
44 Rj111 : The 757 only sold ~400 outside of America. So i wouldn't really call it that popular (for a narrowbody) anywhere outside the US. ~630 US ~100 EU (sche
45 Nzrich : Also NZ chartered a Britannia Airlines 757 for a bit and also Freedom Air had a 757 for a little bit as well
46 Trintocan : Ultimately the key point behind the predominantly domestic sales of the 757, especially compared with its big brother the 767, was that the latter cra
47 Upcfordcruiser : This thread really hits home that there are very few aircraft that directly compete with one another. It's more of a game to fine tune the product to
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