Paco1980 From Belgium, joined Jan 2009, 21 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1914 times:
Dear All,
I am just wondering what is the Cargo part in non-cargo flights (commercial flights), if existing:
- what is the percentage of containers and pallets that are used for passengers luggage in a commercial flight?
- I know it depends on the Aircraft, but is there like an Airline interest of coupling cargo and passengers? if yes, what is the volume for the aircraft you know or the airline you work for?
- what such cargo would contain generally? post office mails?
- I assume the cargo business is optimized for Cargo airlines so what is the interest if any to couple cargo and Passengers transportation? probably fill in the remaining allowed weight and get some money out of it....
Sorry for the silly question as it depends on the Aircraft, the Airline, and probably the color of the captain's cap but any information on the subject will help satisfying my curiosity...
Emptyarm From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 169 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1902 times:
Normally, airlines decide an allotment on each route, given the space and weight needed for baggage (on a full flight basis)...After this, if passengers and baggage are not 100%, the rest of the payload can be filled up with cargo booked on the last days.
For instance, in my airline we use at most 10 LD3 for baggage, so we can fit up to 6 LDP (between 10-15 tons) of cargo
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7754 posts, RR: 26 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1893 times:
Quoting Paco1980 (Thread starter): am just wondering what is the Cargo part in non-cargo flights (commercial flights), if existing:
- what is the percentage of containers and pallets that are used for passengers luggage in a commercial flight?
that can vary from flight to flight and depends on the passenger booking situation, weather etc.. Even booked cargo can be bumped from a flight at last minute.
Quoting Paco1980 (Thread starter): what such cargo would contain generally? post office mails?
cargo and mail are different items. Mail has a higher priority than cargo. Cargo can contain anything that is allowed on an aircraft, even dangerous goods. Except from the class cargo like DGR or human remains or perishables, there is a term FAK which stands for freight all kinds.
Quoting Paco1980 (Thread starter): - I assume the cargo business is optimized for Cargo airlines so what is the interest if any to couple cargo and Passengers transportation? probably fill in the remaining allowed weight and get some money out of it....
It depends on the airlines business model. We just had a thread about combination carriers which are airlines that have all cargo as well as passenger a/c.
The combination carriers will sell all available space on gtheir flights, regardless if that is cargo or pax a/c They will exchange (transfer) pallets at their hiubs from pax to cao a/c and vv.
Very few flights LH operates do not carry freight, the reason is either too short turn around on domestoic services or the freight office of the handling agent at the destination is not staffed over weelkend, like EDI for instance., Such flights are blocked and cannot be booked for cargo.
Some low cost carriers don't carry cargo at all, likely because it is difficult to rip-off freight forwarders.
The laast sentence of the above question is really what pulls the industry down.
As long as there are carriers that sell fill up space for any price they can get on the market, it will be difficult to make some decent mones in freight. In that case I do prefer an LCC who refrains from carrying freight.
TW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 477 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1893 times:
Cargo or better Airfreight is a substantial money maker for airlines especially on widebodies.
At my time with TW we had high freight loads westbound to the US and hardly anything eastbound from the US to Europe.
Quoting Paco1980 (Thread starter): - what is the percentage of containers and pallets that are used for passengers luggage in a commercial flight?
our average was 1/3rd baggage and 2/3rd freight - one exception we had which was just 1 container with bags plus the belly squeezed with bags and 11 tons of airfreight on the B767-200 to JFK - but that was an exception
Quoting Paco1980 (Thread starter): - what such cargo would contain generally? post office mails?
when you have a mail contract then you are lucky as mail pays well. normal airfreight is almost anything from perishable goods over spare parts and garments to playstations, car tires and pianos. certain routes see very specific airfreight (thinking of the chestnut season from Milan to North America), other routes have more general commodities. I experienced a typical mix of almost everything sent as airfreight, only thing I didn't like at all where dangerous goods.
Quoting Paco1980 (Thread starter): - I assume the cargo business is optimized for Cargo airlines so what is the interest if any to couple cargo and Passengers transportation? probably fill in the remaining allowed weight and get some money out of it....
yes and no. the larger the items the better for pure freighters. same for live animals (horses, cows, ...). Actually most airlines try to get as much airfreight as possible supplementing the income of the flight. Sometimes airlines even send larger aircraft to a destination because of high airfreight loads - recently I was reading here on a.net of a LH A300 going to Malta because of airfreight but with a pax load more suitable for an A319....
Only carriers to my knowledge not accepting airfreight are LCC's and possibly regionals with small aircraft. But the usual 737s and A320s do also carry a good amount of airfreight on every flight.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7754 posts, RR: 26 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1872 times:
Quoting TW741 (Reply 3): Cargo or better Airfreight is a substantial money maker for airlines especially on widebodies.
At my time with TW we had high freight loads westbound to the US and hardly anything eastbound from the US to Europe.
you see what a difference an excellent sales force plus a good office crew makes. The TWA people at FRA were tops, at JFK the Eurpoean carriers moved the bulk of the US/Europe freight.
Dalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2365 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1850 times:
I noticed on a narrow body like an MD80 the aft cargo is full of bags and the mid is usually cargo. Sometimes there is also cargo in the fwd. Live animals like dogs have to go in the fwd most bin for these planes.
TW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 477 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1848 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4): The TWA people at FRA were tops
yes our FRA ground staff, be it Ops, Cargo or Pax where real pro's (like we have been at VIE) ..... inbound from JFK, if there was freight on board, same arrived usually unmanifested, no docs - it was always a mess....
but it was the same when I was with AC - westbound top loads, eastbound poor loads with poor service from our overseas colleagues .....
My impression always was that the eastbound loads all arrived on LH and KL....
After my TW time the carrier I worked for had just regional aircraft just fitting a few envelopes as airfreight
Paco1980 From Belgium, joined Jan 2009, 21 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1806 times:
Thanks to all for the replies.
I have a further question:
- What generally limits the additional cargo for passengers flights?
Is it the available volume? or is it the available remaining weight which should be if I am not wrong limited by the Aircraft Maximum Zero Fuel Weight?
Because, theoretically, it all depends on the density of what you carry... so how is it in the real life?
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7754 posts, RR: 26 Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1779 times:
Quoting Paco1980 (Reply 7): Is it the available volume? or is it the available remaining weight which
Both. In load planning you have to conisder the available space and weight capacity and get that in line with the weight and volume of the airfreight.
Quoting Paco1980 (Reply 7): it all depends on the density of what you carry
Good man, wanna start a career in airfreight? Indeed the density is important. Presently, 1 kg equals 1 cdm which means that one cubic metre is charged at 167 kgs or, if greater, the actual weight.
The rule is multiply lenght widht and height and divide by 6 and you get the volumetric weight. The chargeable weight is whatever is greater, actual or volumetric.
TW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 477 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1762 times:
Quoting Paco1980 (Reply 7): - What generally limits the additional cargo for passengers flights?
Is it the available volume? or is it the available remaining weight which should be if I am not wrong limited by the Aircraft Maximum Zero Fuel Weight?
a lot of factors but most important
- weight restrictions for the flight - a refuel stop just because of a full cargo load wouldn't pay
other reasons could be
- volume
- floor loading limits - what can be ok for a maindeck freighter is sometimes not loadable in the lower holds of a passenger plane - not because of size but of the high weight per square-meter and per loading position
- special cargo/dangerous goods - not all kind of dangerous goods are allowed on pax aircraft but may be carried on dedicated freighters (what i remember some kind of radioactive material for instance)
- size limitations - on freighters I can load long pieces over more than one pallet position which i cannot do in the lower hold
.....
but the most annoying reason for limiting airfreight on passenger flights is a lack of containers/pallets - no ULD's - no freight (especially when the colleagues on the other end forget to send empty ULD's with the inbound flight
for narrow body aircraft it can also be a weight and balance issue.
But for me the most important limitation for airfreight on passenger aircraft is the matter of weight restrictions (additional fuel stops).
Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 5): on a narrow body like an MD80 the aft cargo is full of bags and the mid is usually cargo
worst aircraft for me for cargo loading where the DC9s/MD80s with the inward swinging door restricting additionally the available height and additionally having to keep the door area free of any loads - 737s and 727s are/where workhorses for airfreight loads. Brrrr - thinking of the problems with the surfboards on the mad dogs
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9167 posts, RR: 14 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1714 times:
Another restriction we had at SLC, particularly for the ATL widebodies, was the "necessity" to have containers for connecting bags. The way it was set up didn't make much sense because you might have a container going out with only 5 bags in it, just because they were connecting to a certain "zone" in ATL. Such a waste, when those bags could have gone in the bulk bin and another container of cargo could have been loaded. I think that has changed, now, but I can't be certain. SLC cargo had an excellent relationship with SLC ramp and, therefore, we were able to move alot of cargo.
On another note, when I worked cargo at ORD, our 747 to MIA would have all the pax bags in the bulk bin and all the containers would be mail and freight.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
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From Belgium, joined Jan 2009, 21 posts, 
but any information on the subject will help satisfying my curiosity...
From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 169 posts, 
From Germany, joined May 2005, 7754 posts, 
From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 477 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2365 posts, 
(especially when the colleagues on the other end forget to send empty ULD's with the inbound flight
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