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Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8301 times:

Now that one will hurt but was somehow expected..

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...E-8B094AC38DA1}&dist=TQP_Mod_mktwN


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8167 times:

Ouch.

Guess outsourcing really is the way after all! Are any of these jobs coming from the BCA division? Whats the likelihood that there will be more industrial action once the unions realise how many of their number will be shown the door?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8102 times:
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Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Whats the likelihood that there will be more industrial action once the unions realise how many of their number will be shown the door?

Zero. They're under contract for the next four years.

And they watched 30,000 of their brethren be shown the door in 2002 and they accepted it.


User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

Two words: NOT GOOD.

I'm guessing Boeing expects 2009 to be a very tough year. Airbus already reported close to 25% of their backlog being cancelled. More than likely, the same will come from Boeing in 2009.

Some tough times ahead, gentlemen...



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineGr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8052 times:

How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens and market conditions / financing availability improves.....? Will they all go to the end of the waiting line again or will B and A accomodate them back to their original slots....?

User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7952 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Airbus already reported close to 25% of their backlog being cancelled.

When was this, or do you mean the possibility of being cancelled?


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12718 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7867 times:



Quote:
Job reductions will primarily occur in areas that support productivity and infrastructure

That'll help the 787 a lot, right? Sad



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7867 times:



Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens and market conditions / financing availability improves.....? Will they all go to the end of the waiting line again or will B and A accomodate them back to their original slots....?

There is some truth in what you say- the current economic downturn will last eventually 12-18 months-but all downfalls are superceded by economic growth.EK have said the same story and will not cancel any orders.
Fact is there are airlines fighting to survive and aircraft orders will be cancelled.But once the growth comes,manufacturers will struggle to supply in time .The need to travel will not dissappear but be restricted for some forseeable timeframe.New airframe-suppliers in Asia and South America will grow faster than the traditional two ones..
10.000 jobs to be axed seems an awfull lot to me.Maybe Boeing has some more order-cancellations in the pipeline that have not made it into the media.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7845 times:
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I expect he meant "possibility", as that is what I have seen reported in the press from both Airbus and analysts.

Boeing still seems to be holding the line on Commercial Aviation production jobs, however. It looks like they're just trying to streamline that "back end" support positions and also looking at the possibility of the F-22 and C-17 programs not getting the extra production funding they expected, as well as other IDS programs either being scaled back or cut.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

"We are also expecting pressure on defense budgets in light of the economic recovery and financial rescue packages."

Yup, like no one saw this coming.


User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7758 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 5):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Airbus already reported close to 25% of their backlog being cancelled.

When was this, or do you mean the possibility of being cancelled?

At the time of their 2008 orders/deliveries final numbers, Airbus stated that they had 960 gross orders, which went down to 777 net orders, which equals to 183 cancelled orders. I guess I should have not used the term "backlog", but the 2008 orders instead. My fault.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12718 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7760 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Boeing still seems to be holding the line on Commercial Aviation production jobs

The article in the thread starter says:

Quote:
(Boeing) plans to slash about 10,000 jobs across its businesses, compared to a prior announcement of 4,500 job cuts from its commercial airplane unit.

How many employees does BCA have?

4,500 seems to be a significant cut.

Also,

Quote:
. "We are also expecting pressure on defense budgets in light of the economic recovery and financial rescue packages."

How about some economic stimulus for Boeing? Everyone else's hand is in the till these days....



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7702 times:

Wonder if the machineists are regretting going on strike now! A bit short sighted I think!

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7680 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
How many employees does BCA have?

63,500 after the cut - equivalent to the number they had at the start of 2008.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
10.000 jobs to be axed seems an awfull lot to me.Maybe Boeing has some more order-cancellations in the pipeline that have not made it into the media.

Again, these cuts are coming from ALL Boeing divisions. They build more then just airliners, remember.

The C-17 program is winding down unless the USAF and/or the EU buy more. I believe the F-18 program is also starting to slow and the F-15 program is depending solely on foreign orders, now, which are also dwindling.

Boeing is also involved in a number of weapons systems that are currently in the prototype or initial production phase. If those systems are canceled or deferred, that will result in cuts, as well.

And the commercial satellite building and launching business is also being very hard hit with the implosion of the telecommunications market, so Boeing will be cutting there, as well.

Not to mention Boeing has added to their backlogs across all their lines and Boeing has yet to perform significant production ramps on established lines that would require a cutback (as happened in 2002).



Quoting Theginge (Reply 12):
Wonder if the machineists are regretting going on strike now! A bit short sighted I think!

On the contrary, they're probably happy they got what they did and for four years instead of three, so they are in a better position to ride-out the coming downturn. Even if they had agreed to Boeing's original contract, they'd still be seeing people let go because of lack of work.

[Edited 2009-01-28 10:08:42]

User currently offlineStratofortress From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 178 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5392 times:

Roughly half of the 10,000 is at BCA and was announced previously (Nov). The rest (~5000) will come from corporate, support service (travel accounting, building maintenance, etc.) and rest are likely to be from IDS.

F/A-18 is hardly winding down... Multi-year is coming up, as well as 2 huge competitions in India and Brazil.

F-15 platform is dependent on foreign sales, however F-15 upgrades (AESA radar, etc.) are likely to bring in additional domestic work.

Boeing is aggressively expanding into service industry (logistics, maintenance, refurbishing, etc.) so don't expect huge cuts to its core workforce.

Overall, this is not a showstopper, but rather a small course adjustment to reflect economic reality.



Forever New Frontiers
User currently offlineODwyerPW From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4927 times:

Surprised no one as supposed that Boeing feels any decision on the tanker replacement program is highly unlikel in the next few years. How many of these jobs are going as a result of a potential 767 line shutdown. Of course unless I can't read the summaries correct..does boeing really have a backlog of 70 767s?


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineGreenIsle From Ireland, joined Oct 2006, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4644 times:

There are 2 sides to this story:

1: "Boeing's 27,000 machinists, representing 16% of the company's work force, walked off the job on September 6 in a dispute over new contracts".

How they justify this action given the ecomimic times is beyond me.

2: "The [$205m in the fourth quarter] loss marked a sharp turnaround from a profit of $1.5 billion the same time a year earlier."

Is that not a ~1.2 Billion gain over the 2 years? Are things really that bad to justify 10000 cut. Fair enough to cut in the form of early retirement/attrition etc.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5495 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

AW&ST site says an unnamed customer has canceled 15 firm orders for 787's.

Customers with 15 orders include 2 Chinese airlines, the Russian S7 group, Qantas, and Virgin Atlantic.

[Edited 2009-01-28 23:07:43]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2245 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Another drawback of a highly outsourced organization. Such measures happen on the back of the own workers. The capacity of the suppliers is not adjusted accordingly (at least not automatically). The aim to reduce the costs works only for the own share of work. If the suppliers refuse to cut likewise the cost saving effect from an overall perspective is undermined.

User currently offlineAirlittoral From France, joined Sep 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3676 times:



Quoting Theginge (Reply 12):

I think it's a little obscene to blame the machinists for exercising their constitutional right. Why don't you blame the entire world economic crisis on strikers while you're at it? This is just ridiculous.

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens

Hm? I'd love to learn why it's inevitable. Don't you think it's a little premature to forecast a recovery. We still haven't touched the bottom.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
the current economic downturn will last eventually 12-18 months

Same here. I certainly wouldn't commit to a detailed timeframe.


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3604 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 18):
Another drawback of a highly outsourced organization. Such measures happen on the back of the own workers. The capacity of the suppliers is not adjusted accordingly (at least not automatically). The aim to reduce the costs works only for the own share of work. If the suppliers refuse to cut likewise the cost saving effect from an overall perspective is undermined.

The suppliers have fixed price contracts. If they choose not to reduce their costs (either due to slowing demand or a pre-negotiated decline in their contract pricing), they'll make less money. Boeing pays suppliers a pre-determined amount regardless.

If Boeing had not outsourced as much, you'd see much larger swings in its employment numbers when production was ramped up or down.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3481 times:
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Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 15):
How many of these jobs are going as a result of a potential 767 line shutdown.

The 767 line is good for many years and is actually scheduled for a production rate increase. Boeing is not about to shut it down until they have either definitively won or lost the KC-X RFP and they will know that within a year or two.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
AW&ST site says an unnamed customer has canceled 15 firm orders for 787's.

Confirmed as S7 for economic reasons. About a dozen threads on it right now.  Wink


User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3351 times:



Quoting Airlittoral (Reply 19):
Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens

Hm? I'd love to learn why it's inevitable. Don't you think it's a little premature to forecast a recovery. We still haven't touched the bottom.

I never said anything about the bottom, nor did I say anything about the length of the recession....economies do not remain in recession forever....they recover from such low phases (however severe they may be) and start moving upwards sooner or later....that's what I'm talking about.....bad as the current situation may be, try to provide a concrete scenario for such conditions to persist indefinitely and you'll find yourself hard pressed to come up with an argument....  smile 


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5495 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3275 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Confirmed as S7 for economic reasons. About a dozen threads on it right now.

Obviously my priorities are wrong. I didn't think it was worth its own thread.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineA10WARTHOG From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3274 times:



Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 15):
How many of these jobs are going as a result of a potential 767 line shutdown.

At this time, Boeing is talking about not laying off the production people. But I believe that, about as far as I can throw a 747. We will just have to wait and see.


25 Stitch : Sorry for coming across as an ass there. Just noting that all the active threads talking about Boeing or the 787 at the moment are also discussing S7
26 MasseyBrown : You didn't. At the time I posted I don't believe there was another thread. I should have know there would be.
27 Moman : Those of us who have been 'inside' Boeing have seen the massive waste there. Close-mindedness and incompetence are core competencies.
28 F9Animal : Strike or no strike, this would have been the outcome. It is the economy, and many things that created this issue. The strike did not help matters, b
29 DocLightning : Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.
30 Tdscanuck : They do if they want to keep rolling in cash (in the short term). Don't get me wrong, I think this round of layoffs aren't a very good strategic move
31 Pianos101 : Isn't it all relative though? Think about what the strike did to some of the partners that had to drastically cut down operations and furlough/lay-of
32 Gr8Circle : There's nothing good about a recession, whether it's Boeing, Microsoft, Toyota or the likes of GM and Chrysler..... Having cash reserves does not mea
33 F9Animal : Why not? They are being careful. They do have a huge amount of cash stockpiled, but they also know how quickly that cash can burn in the current econ
34 Post contains links Astuteman : Using a large amount of cash as an excuse to have "loose" manning levels is a sure way of running into problems at a later date - especially in the c
35 Flybyguy : Boeing seems to be in good shape financially. It's well known for its conservatism when it comes to its finances. That's probably the reason why the
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