Evan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2 Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7287 times:
Are these flights still on the books? Delta has yet to start selling seats on these two flights and time is ticking. June is rapidly approaching. I have a feeling these two routes (ATL-SID-SSG, ATL-SID-LAD) won't be starting. Is there any official word out there or insider that can shed some light on these two routes?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
CatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2303 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6880 times:
I think they were subject to government approval. Maybe the approval has been slow in coming with the changeover in administrations here?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31155 posts, RR: 76 Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6591 times:
Quoting CatIII (Reply 1): I think they were subject to government approval. Maybe the approval has been slow in coming with the changeover in administrations here?
Government approval was given nearly three months ago.
USFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1809 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6477 times:
More likely they haven't been approved by the foreign governments. Angola's government is notoriously stingy with frequencies. They basically only operate on reciprocity ie. TAAG has to be able to fly two frequencies a week to the USA if Delta wants to fly two frequencies a week to Angola. Much of the time if you wish to fly to Angola you have to book months in advance because the flight are always sold out due to the frequencies being so restricted.
RAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6426 times:
Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 3): More likely they haven't been approved by the foreign governments. Angola's government is notoriously stingy with frequencies. They basically only operate on reciprocity ie. TAAG has to be able to fly two frequencies a week to the USA if Delta wants to fly two frequencies a week to Angola. Much of the time if you wish to fly to Angola you have to book months in advance because the flight are always sold out due to the frequencies being so restricted.
Have not non-scheduled / charter flights from Houston to Luanda operated by World Airways not many years ago?
Do you think that these routes would be profitable routing it via SID instead DKR, ACC, LOS or any other point at West Africa?
Gerard
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
CatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2303 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6299 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): Government approval was given nearly three months ago.
By the U.S., but not necessarily by the foreign governments. I'm wondering if the foreign governments were waiting to see what, if anything, they can extract out of the new Administration, such as a bilateral.
Ssublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 504 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6253 times:
Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 4): Do you think that these routes would be profitable routing it via SID instead DKR, ACC, LOS or any other point at West Africa?
If I'm not mistaken DL will use the 757 to SSG which will not make it to ACC or LOS hence using SID instead. Their ABV flight is also scheduled using a 757 and that too will stop over in SID.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31155 posts, RR: 76 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6090 times:
Quoting CatIII (Reply 5): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Government approval was given nearly three months ago.
By the U.S., but not necessarily by the foreign governments. I'm wondering if the foreign governments were waiting to see what, if anything, they can extract out of the new Administration, such as a bilateral.
Yes, but they don't need foreign government approval to sell tickets originating in the United States. (although obviously they need foreign government approval to start the flights). Because foreign governments are typically not as quick for approval and typically do approve new services, U.S. airlines often start selling tickets well before foreign government approval. So either Delta is not sure they are going to get foreign government approval and doesn't want to take a chance, or the idea is off.
Given that there is no current U.S. service to Angola and Equitoreal Guinea, it does make sense if Delta is being more cautious then, say, starting a new route to the Bahamas or Dominican Republic where foreign government approval is a near certainty.
Burnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7421 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6072 times:
Quoting CatIII (Reply 1): I think they were subject to government approval. Maybe the approval has been slow in coming with the changeover in administrations here?
Regardless, they don't need to wait for that to sell tickets, NW used to do it all the time with new international service.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
CatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2303 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5968 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9): Dues a current air services bilateral agreement even exist between the U.S. and Angola or Equatorial Guinea?
None at all with EG. In fact, we only recently reinstated diplomatic relations with the country.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5394 times:
let's keep in mind that these route involve a very small and known group of travelers. this route is not being started for the benefit of the general public for a very defined group of identified passengers. There is no need for a long selling period nor is it difficult to start selling when approvals are made.
The countries involved are very different from the types of countries that have received air service so the typical rules don't apply. DL has started routes without foreign gov't approval but there are very few countries that receive air service outside of an air services agreement.
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8318 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5171 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11): The countries involved are very different from the types of countries that have received air service so the typical rules don't apply. DL has started routes without foreign gov't approval
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31155 posts, RR: 76 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5152 times:
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12): Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
The countries involved are very different from the types of countries that have received air service so the typical rules don't apply. DL has started routes without foreign gov't approval
Can you give some examples?
If you are looking for examples of routes open for sale without foreign government approval, well, everything that is outside of Open Skies. U.S. DOT gives approval in days, other countries take weeks or months. AA MIA-CNF, DL ATL-TGU, B6 MCO-SJO, etc., etc. You name it.
Routes being open for sale without foreign government approval is the rule, not the exception.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22241 posts, RR: 51 Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4962 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9): Dues a current air services bilateral agreement even exist between the U.S. and Angola or Equatorial Guinea?
Nope.
The World/SonAir Angola charters have operated for years on a non-bilateral basis.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
JAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3328 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4914 times:
I can't imagine there being enough people to fill these flights. Angola and Equatorial Guinea don't sound like very plentiful markets for a scheduled route. For reference, Canada as a whole is only home to 4000 odd Angolans and Guineans combined.
Supported the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
Frostbite From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4850 times:
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 16): Angola and Equatorial Guinea don't sound like very plentiful markets for a scheduled route. For reference, Canada as a whole is only home to 4000 odd Angolans and Guineans combined.
North America to LAD and SSG are oil routes. I don't think DL is under any illusions when it comes to the VFR traffic prospects.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4788 times:
Quoting Frostbite (Reply 17): North America to LAD and SSG are oil routes.
which is why DL doesn't really need to publish the flights in CRSs. They are targeted to a very few clientele. The reason DL is flying these routes is because they can operate them cheaper than the charters that currently fly them and thus get the business on DL.
Evan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4765 times:
This thread has done more to confuse me than help me. Is there any reassurance out there that these routes will definitely be starting? To the contrary, are there any informed speculators out there who are fairly positive these routes won't be starting? I can't understand why Delta isn't selling seats by now, the flights start in 4 months. ABV and ROB are already in the system. Delta has been awfully quiet about LAD and SSG, considering they publicly announced the cancellation of JFK-GOT and JFK-TLV #2.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4411 times:
I am actually surprised to hear about Delta expanding to Luanda, considering that there has been controversy over European countries being "kicked out" of LAD. TAAG had some issues with qualifications, and the Angolan government retaliated by denying them the rights to land until TAAG was allowed reciprocal landing rights.
Is this not the case with the U.S.? Has TAAG been given permission to fly to the U.S.?
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MHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1055 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4131 times:
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 20): I am actually surprised to hear about Delta expanding to Luanda, considering that there has been controversy over European countries being "kicked out" of LAD. TAAG had some issues with qualifications, and the Angolan government retaliated by denying them the rights to land until TAAG was allowed reciprocal landing rights.
Is this not the case with the U.S.? Has TAAG been given permission to fly to the U.S.?
The previous board of TAAG was recently ousted and a new board is in place that appears to be making changes. A TAAG official stated the airline should be off the EU blacklist within 7 months. TAAG is currently operating flights to LIS and CDG with a SA 744 and an AF A330 respectively.
Once DT gets removed from the EU blacklist, I assume that they will able to get permission to fly into the U.S. in which case DL would get permission to fly to LAD.
Of course with TAAG, there's no telling what will happen. But until TAAG gets rights to fly to the U.S., DL will not be flying to LAD IMO.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4038 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18): he reason DL is flying these routes is because they can operate them cheaper than the charters that currently fly them and thus get the business on DL.
Not likely, since the charter is a nonstop to IAH sponsored by the Angolan oil industry. DL is offering a two stop, mostly economy service versus a nonstop virtually all premium widebody bankrolled by the state oil company. I'm not sure what incentive Angola has in handing over the revenue to a US company for a subpar routing.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2618 posts, RR: 31 Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3975 times:
Equatorial Guinea is only home to some 600,000 people. No way could such a small country support any sort of direct service to the U.S. without significant business traffic justifying the flight in the first place. Angola does have over 12 million people, but only a tiny fraction of them derive any sort of benefit from the country's vast reserves. Thus, in both cases, the [oil] business links are the driving force behind the flights. Given the dismal state of the oil sector right now, it is possible Delta decided these flights may be all too risky after all. If Delta was able to get additional rights to notoriously corrupt Nigeria for its JFK-LOS and Abuja routes, there is no reason to believe they could not do the same for Equatorial Guinea and Angola.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3969 times:
I thought this was interesting, from the Sonair site:
"Mileage earned on Houston Express can be redeemed with United Airlines. You may sign up to the program when registering online in our system or at one of our agencies"
E pur si muove -Galileo
25 WorldTraveler: read what I said about costs. I'm not sure that it is totally accurate that the Angolan oil company is paying the bills - or that they are the only s
26 MaverickM11: The charter is operated by Sonair, an arm of Sonangol, the Angolan oil company. I'm sure it's cheaper, but a two stop is also a lot less desirable th
27 Frostbite: At risk of making generalizations, I am pretty certain that Angola and especially Equatorial Guinea would rank very high on the corruption scale. Not
28 MaverickM11: I'd say about 95% of the LAD US traffic goes to Houston, and WO carries about 95% of that traffic.
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Equatorial Guinea is only home to some 600,000 people. No way could such a small country support any sort of direct service to the U.S. without significant business traffic justifying the flight in the first place. Angola does have over 12 million people, but only a tiny fraction of them derive any sort of benefit from the country's vast reserves. Thus, in both cases, the [oil] business links are the driving force behind the flights. Given the dismal state of the oil sector right now, it is possible Delta decided these flights may be all too risky after all. If Delta was able to get additional rights to notoriously corrupt Nigeria for its JFK-LOS and Abuja routes, there is no reason to believe they could not do the same for Equatorial Guinea and Angola.
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