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DL Ends 767 Service On ATL-MCO; 767 Returns To SAN  
User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 893 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10048 times:

I notice on the Delta desktop schedule that April 30 is the last day Delta has 767 service between ATL-MCO and is switched to all 757 service May 1.

I believe that Delta has had some kind of heavy service on ATL-MCO for some time. My question is, exactly how long? For as long as I can remember they have had some kind of heavy on the route.

I also notice that also starting May 1, ATL-SAN will see three daily 767s.

Both of these changes seem to be in place for the summer.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10017 times:

Probably as long as DL has had widebodies they've been flying back and forth between ATL and MCO, along with Eastern L1011s and A300s. Not sure what DL has in mind for NWA's 757-300s but they are better suited for routes such as ATL-MCO than DL's 767s.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineNjdevilsin03 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9991 times:

The FLL-ATL service will I believe be going all 757 too...


717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9997 times:

I'd put my money on DL 753s will mimic CO's usage i.e. LAS/Florida/California.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9915 times:

Never thought I'd hear the statement "DL ends 767 service on ATL-MCO." I have a paper timetable from summer 2004 where every ATL-MCO segment was a 763 or 764, with a single 757 and 777.

And now there's not a SINGLE 76' left on the route? Wow...

And of course, as a SAN-ophile, its nice to see DL 76's back. We missed you, and the it feels kind of weird looking on flightaware seeing nothing but 757s and even 738s (!) on ATL-SAN.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

Couldn't these simply be seasonal changes, given that San Diego is a pleasant summertime destination while Orlando is best avoided then?


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9863 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 5):
Couldn't these simply be seasonal changes, given that San Diego is a pleasant summertime destination while Orlando is best avoided then?

While the humidity in Florida during the Summer can be a turn off, the fact of the matter is that tourism booms during the Summer in Florida as that's when families take their vacations. Families head to Disney, not La Jolla.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9826 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 5):
Couldn't these simply be seasonal changes, given that San Diego is a pleasant summertime destination while Orlando is best avoided then?

Compare it to the last year, SAN saw one 767 from April to June and September to December. I believe it was the last time SAN saw this kind of 767 service.

I don%u2019t recall ATL-MCO ever being without wide body service. With Disney there it would have been one of the last domestic 767 routes.


User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1612 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9705 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
While the humidity in Florida during the Summer can be a turn off, the fact of the matter is that tourism booms during the Summer in Florida as that's when families take their vacations. Families head to Disney, not La Jolla.

Huh? Not La Jolla? What about Sea World, The Zoo, Legoland and Disneyland just up the road 90 miles away? Sounds like family fun to me.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33280 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9703 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
While the humidity in Florida during the Summer can be a turn off, the fact of the matter is that tourism booms during the Summer in Florida as that's when families take their vacations. Families head to Disney, not La Jolla.

Tourism is strong to Orlando during the summer, not Florida as whole. Only Orlando is in-season during the summer.



a.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9508 times:



Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 8):
Huh? Not La Jolla? What about Sea World, The Zoo, Legoland and Disneyland just up the road 90 miles away? Sounds like family fun to me.

Almost all West Coast, not families from the East coast connecting through ATL. Orlando area attractions far exceed those of Southern California.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9473 times:



Quoting C767P (Thread starter):
DL Ends 767 Service On ATL-MCO; 767 Returns To SAN

You're mocking me, aren't you!  Silly


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7692 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9241 times:



Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
Never thought I'd hear the statement "DL ends 767 service on ATL-MCO." I have a paper timetable from summer 2004 where every ATL-MCO segment was a 763 or 764, with a single 757 and 777.

I'm surprised as well. With all the point to point flying DL has cut to Orlando they should need more capacity, not less.

My guess is that this is fuel driven. The 767 uses a lot more fuel than the 757 on a per seat basis. It particularly bites on shorter hauls because the MTOW is so much higher. They are probably making decisions based upon last year's performance when fuel was expensive. I would expect this will change back when they are sure fuel will stay where it is.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9198 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 12):
With all the point to point flying DL has cut to Orlando they should need more capacity, not less.

Not really. DL is just not interested in carrying a lot of Florida traffic anymore....the yields aren't good enough.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 12):
My guess is that this is fuel driven. The 767 uses a lot more fuel than the 757 on a per seat basis.

I don't think fuel has anything to do with it. With the transition of the last 7 domestic 764's to international, DL has fewer and fewer domestic widebodies to work with. Some routes must lose and lower yield markets will take the brunt of it. With that said, I'm sure MCO will periodically still see a domestic 763 turn as sometimes it fits well within the scheduling.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9174 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Almost all West Coast, not families from the East coast connecting through ATL. Orlando area attractions far exceed those of Southern California.

Agreed. No one is going to fly from east of the Mississippi to SoCal for the attractions that are just south of them and is arguably a cheaper trip.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 13):
Not really. DL is just not interested in carrying a lot of Florida traffic anymore....the yields aren't good enough.

 checkmark  Perhaps they feel that they will accomplish the desired yeilds with the 757 packed both way on the 405 mile route. Makes sense to me.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7692 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9127 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 13):
DL has fewer and fewer domestic widebodies to work with. Some routes must lose and lower yield markets will take the brunt of it. With that said, I'm sure MCO will periodically still see a domestic 763 turn as sometimes it fits well within the scheduling.

The yields to MCO are habitually low. Low yield routes are never a "priority". They are not any lower now than they have been in the past, though. The smart thing to do is put the lowest CASM aircraft on a high volume, low yield route. My guess, as stated above, is that the 767 went through a period where it was not the lowest CASM aircraft for this leg because of fuel, so the wheels started to turn to reoptimize to the lowest CASM aircraft. I just think that is no longer the 757 and it will flip back when everything settles.

Keep in mind aircraft assignments are mathematically optimized. It is not just a gut decision. Here is a press release on one of the software packages that can be used for that. Delta may not use the Sabre product, but they are using some kind of automated fleet selection tool.

Through the five-year partnership, Lufthansa will use the patented Sabre(R) O&D FAM fleet assignment model, one of the industry's most sophisticated decision-support tools, which uses global optimization techniques to design a schedule that assigns the most appropriate aircraft to each flight leg. The model's mathematical optimization techniques automatically produce profitable and operationally feasible solutions that are virtually impossible to generate manually.

The fact that MCO has very consistently had 767s in the past means that the FAM tool had strong economic/mathematic correlation to assign 767s to the route. Despite the 767 domestic fleet reduction, I think that means the math says MCO is a high priority for the 767...at least when fuel is reasonable. It'll be back. Anybody, wanna bet me?


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9057 times:

I thought one of the reasons for widebodys to MCO, was aircraft arrived from Europe that would otherwise be idle until their return to Europe. ATL-MCO is a quick turn to utilize the jet before the night departure back to Europe or some other long haul.

User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9046 times:



Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):

I believe most of the 767s on the route were domestic, not international.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8768 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Sounds like DL needs to order more 767s. They can't even find one for their flagship route, ATL-MCO.  boggled   stirthepot 

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5603 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8886 times:

I mentioned the SAN item a couple of days ago in this thread:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4301659/

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Families head to Disney, not La Jolla.



Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 8):
Huh? Not La Jolla? What about Sea World, The Zoo, Legoland and Disneyland just up the road 90 miles away? Sounds like family fun to me.

 checkmark Coronado. (You beat me to the "Huh?"!)

Incidentally, STT', you might want to take a poll of residents of the states of AZ and NV and those living in Los Angeles, and then rethink your statement.  Wink

This SAN equip shuffle seems to now be a seasonal thing but who knows what may happen in the future, given the economy, fuel prices, system-wide a/c needs, the merger, etc. In any case, we'll take 67s whenever we can get 'em!

(BTW, the new schedule will see 2 of the wide bodies RON at Lindbergh.)

bb


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8840 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
They are not any lower now than they have been in the past, though.

But what you miss is that DL has made some strategic changes and their priorities have changed. A few years ago protecting those low yield Florida routes was still a priority, it isn't anymore.

DL is also trying to squeeze more yield out of Florida by cutting capacity. The 763's require DL to do more discounting than they like to fill all those seats. The 757's allow DL to get rid of many of those discounted seats. There's more to it than simply assigning the lowest CASM aircraft.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
I just think that is no longer the 757 and it will flip back when everything settles.

But DL began removing 767's from MCO way before fuel prices spiked, so your logic doesn't quite hold. I'm sure 763's will still periodically show up in MCO, but the bulk of the ATL-MCO flying will be narrowbody....just as it is for most carriers.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7692 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8661 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
DL is also trying to squeeze more yield out of Florida by cutting capacity. The 763's require DL to do more discounting than they like to fill all those seats. The 757's allow DL to get rid of many of those discounted seats. There's more to it than simply assigning the lowest CASM aircraft.

That assumes that Delta can control the price points on Florida. I think there is way too much LCC influence on Florida pricing for DL to effectively raise prices through revenue management. If they squeeze it and bucket up their prices the demand will wither as it shifts to LCCs. I don't think they will do that.

Again, Delta has cut MCO capacity massively already. There is limited need to do that further. Also keep in mind their ongoing hatred for AirTran. Any attempt to bank money on Atlanta - Florida will result in a massive windfall for AirTran. If you are right and they don't care about Florida any more then you better be buying AAI stock.

BTW, is anybody else having problems with this site remembering your username/password?


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8542 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 21):
That assumes that Delta can control the price points on Florida. I think there is way too much LCC influence on Florida pricing for DL to effectively raise prices through revenue management. If they squeeze it and bucket up their prices the demand will wither as it shifts to LCCs. I don't think they will do that.

Again, Delta has cut MCO capacity massively already. There is limited need to do that further. Also keep in mind their ongoing hatred for AirTran. Any attempt to bank money on Atlanta - Florida will result in a massive windfall for AirTran. If you are right and they don't care about Florida any more then you better be buying AAI stock.

Keep in mind that there are now hundreds, if not thousands, of O&D's that Delta serves in the Florida market that are not influenced by LCC's. By reducing capacity in the Florida markets they can segregate "good" vs. "bad" traffic. IE...they can cut back on BMI-MCO while keeping the gates open on MSN-MCO.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8434 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 21):
If they squeeze it and bucket up their prices the demand will wither as it shifts to LCCs. I don't think they will do that.

They've been doing it for a while...take a look at how FL has grown at MCO over the past few years or how G4 has grown at SFB. Some of those folks were former DL customers.

At Jetlanta points out, DL still has lots of market pairs where yields to MCO are a bit higher with no LCC's. And of course, DL has a slew of international traffic that the LCC's aren't a factor in either. And then there's those people (read: frequent flyers) who are loyal to DL and will simply pay more for DL vs. an LCC. That's enough customers to fill 757's to MCO with better yields.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 21):
If you are right and they don't care about Florida any more then you better be buying AAI stock.

Bought FL last summer at $1.80 and have made a nice profit off of it....though that has less to do with DL's capacity cuts and more to do with dropping fuel prices.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 21):
Any attempt to bank money on Atlanta - Florida will result in a massive windfall for AirTran.

It has been a windfall for FL, though even FL can have trouble making money on MCO traffic when fuel prices are high. There's a reason why FL has launched routes like CMH-MCO and MDT-MCO. DL doesn't want most of these customers anymore and they really don't care if FL takes them. DL will vigorously fight FL on most routes out of ATL, but they won't fight for Florida traffic (except for some of the smaller Florida markets like DAB, TLH, PNS who have a different value to DL).


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8333 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
Keep in mind aircraft assignments are mathematically optimized. It is not just a gut decision. Here is a press release on one of the software packages that can be used for that. Delta may not use the Sabre product, but they are using some kind of automated fleet selection tool.

Through the five-year partnership, Lufthansa will use the patented Sabre(R) O&D FAM fleet assignment model, one of the industry's most sophisticated decision-support tools, which uses global optimization techniques to design a schedule that assigns the most appropriate aircraft to each flight leg. The model's mathematical optimization techniques automatically produce profitable and operationally feasible solutions that are virtually impossible to generate manually.

So I wonder what program WN uses for fleet assignment, a coin with a 737 on both sides?



Tailwinds!!!
25 DeltaL1011man : why? the 763Ds are 1) almost all ATL based and 2) seat 10-15 more PAX than the 753 and CAN NOT be used for TATL flights. Plus DL has 2-3 763s in VCV
26 Jetlanta : Exactly. And your other point about fewer 767's flying domestic markets is also on point. 764's are now going to be completely gone from domestic fly
27 DeltAirlines : Also, keep in mind that it is February 2. And we're talking about Delta. Which means by June 2, DL will likely have gone 3 schedule revisions on ATL-M
28 Dazed767 : And for anyone who has tried to non-rev in the summer from ATL-MCO knows EVERY seat is full. Maybe they'll change it (unless they really think the eco
29 STT757 : Without including Bush Gardens, Sea World, Universal's two parks, and the Kennedy Space center just compare the Central Florida Disney properties in
30 DeltaL1011man : Ok and the HNL/MSP/DTW routes get replaced by what? again and they get replaced by...........? Of all the aircraft that is going to get moved around.
31 Breaker1011 : Never thought I'd see the day where we here in PHX, even thru the summer (low season), get a 763 to ATL while MCO and FLL get none!
32 FlyASAGuy2005 : MCO and FLL always saw a swarm of 763s and 764s with the normal mid day and evening T7 turn in Orlando. I also started to see the trend with SJU abou
33 San747 : Definitely true for ONT... when I worked there, I would see flights to SLC operated by CRJ-200s, ERJ-145s, 737-800s or CRJ-900s on different days of
34 SLCUT2777 : You'll be amazed at the vast number of families heading off for a week in a time share near La Jolla flying SLC-SAN. I own a week in a Pacific Beach
35 STT757 : Unfortunately the economic situation is going to get much worse before it gets better, we have not yet felt the full impacts of the credit crisis as
36 Floridaflyboy : Exactly! The 753s are already on very high traffic routes out of those cities. They run full very very regularly on routes like MSP-LAX, MSP-SEA, MSP
37 DeltAirlines : SAN is better in terms of weather, but not necessarily accessibility. The majority of Americans live east of the Mississippi River - a huge chunk of
38 STT757 : Don't forget Amtrak, they have three daily trains from New York Penn Station to Florida plus Amtrak's Auto Train from Lorton Virginia to Sanford (Jus
39 NetJetAndy : Maybe the passengers have been complaining that they would rather take a 757. I flew a DL 767 last week from TPA-ATL and it was filthy dirty, the IFE
40 C767P : Got to be out of their mind… Just out of curiosity, did you get any pictures of this filthy aircraft? I have only heard people mention them here, n
41 Njdevilsin03 : I agree i have been on some DL 767's that need a lil work... i have had one with a malfunctioning 10000 feet in the air binging sound that binged ever
42 C767P : So this was before they all had AVOD? If that is the case, the seats would be different as well, right? With the exception of the shape of the overhe
43 DELTA7478 : They need to bring the A330 to MCO and JAX since the yield is there. Well see how long the 767 last in SAN, and also the Florida economy is doing bett
44 Timaay419 : Growing up in the midwest (STL), I would say 90% of families took their vacations to Florida. When my family traveled to California, it was to visit
45 San747 : Good luck with that... the yields and traffic may be there, but there just aren't enough A330s and they need to be used on international routes and r
46 C767P : In recent years it might be true that Delta does not consistently operate ATL-SAN with a 767; yet there has not been a year that has not seen 767 ser
47 DELTA7478 : I think that you are right C767P, they are probably going to keep the 767 still November. Then they will swtich it back to 757 and 738. DL just needs
48 RwSEA : The 753s are used on routes such as SEA/PDX/LAX/LAS-MSP, HNL-SEA/PDX, etc. and run quite full. What do you propose putting on these routes instead to
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