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Bombardier Fails To Close A Deal With Lufthansa  
User currently offlineLH452 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 42 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15006 times:

Bombardier failed last week to announce a long-awaited order from Deutsche Lufthansa AG for its CSeries aircraft, adding to concerns about the longterm future of its commercial jet division. Lufthansa have said for a long time, since the airshow last year, that they are committed to the aircraft. I have been convinced of an order but now I'm not so sure anymore. Anybody close to the negotiations that cares to shed some light on the issues.

79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14457 times:

With Boeings less than firm comment last week regarding the future of the 748, maybe LH don't want to be the launch customer on what so far seems to be a project that has lacked attention and orders from the airlines. Still we will have to wait and see, aviation is a funny business sometimes!

User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5092 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14446 times:

The C-series Program is as good as dead!


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2280 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14387 times:

John has the following comment on his blog.

"GTF Update & CSeries
Pratt & Whitney is hosting a media day on Tuesday recapping the initial results of ground and flight testing and looking ahead to 2009 for the PW1000G engine. Going hand in hand with this event could be an announcement of firm orders from Lufthansa and a lessor for the Bombardier CSeries. Holding a media day for the CSeries engine in conjunction with firm launch customer announcement would give Bombardier's new narrowbody a big (and much needed) boost."

He usually doesn't make such comments unless he has some inside information.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14298 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
He usually doesn't make such comments unless he has some inside information.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...ogger

I really hope so, anyday when this media event is taking place. It is 11:55AM Eastern time right now so I guess it will be later this afternoon.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3070 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14142 times:



Quoting JAL (Reply 2):
The C-series Program is as good as dead!

You're a right little ray of sunshine, aren't you?

Realistically though, we are talking about a brand new airframe that's using a brand new (and as of this moment, unproven in service) engine. Lufthansa is understandably reticent to place firm orders on such a large gamble without strong, verifiable assurances from P&W that the GTF won't turn itself into very expensive shrapnel after a few thousand hours in the air.

However, should the GTF prove reliable and the CSeries capable of delivering on it's promised efficiency improvements, then there's no reason why the CSeries shouldn't become a sales success.

I'm sure there are other members here far more qualified than I to enumerate aircraft programs which despite teething problems or difficulty in finding initial orders went on to become quite successful.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14128 times:
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Multiple reports "guaranteed" LH was going to confirm last week at the latest, so hopefully they will sign at today's ceremony.

User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14110 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
He usually doesn't make such comments unless he has some inside information.

That's true... though on the other hand he may be indulging in some harmless speculation. It would be a good guess that perhaps BBD would wait until PW did this media day... but on the other hand, BBD nevertheless would have missed their very public deadline of fiscal year end - which is a fairly big deal when the LOI has been dragging and dragging.

Related news on the GTF today on Flight Global's sister site - RATI, is an article on the testing of the "PurePower PW1000G geared turbofan engine on an A340-600 test aircraft... which comprised 27 flights undertaken during 75hr of tests"

AIrbus' testing was in addition to the "some 300hr of tests, including 12 flights with the PW1000G attached to a Boeing 747SP."

Thus far, this GTF has a total of 406 hrs of tests, with 120 hrs in flight and PW will spend the nest few monts assessing the data gathered from Airbus' flight testing...

"The engine performed exceptionally throughout the programme, demonstrating both performance and reliability under extremely challenging tests," he says. These included high-altitude manoeuvres in excess of 2g.

"Thousands of data points taken during this test programme will enable our engineers to optimise the engine as we enter detailed design mid-year," says Saia.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12847 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13984 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Multiple reports "guaranteed" LH was going to confirm last week at the latest, so hopefully they will sign at today's ceremony.



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
That's true... though on the other hand he may be indulging in some harmless speculation. It would be a good guess that perhaps BBD would wait until PW did this media day... but on the other hand, BBD nevertheless would have missed their very public deadline of fiscal year end - which is a fairly big deal when the LOI has been dragging and dragging.

Maybe it's signed already and they're waiting for today to announce it?

Sorry if this sounds too optimistic to some...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirbusA370 From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13930 times:

And what about LH? They might have to go without the 748i and without the C-Series now. Maybe their strategy to buy only when it's dirt cheap bites back now.

User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13889 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
Maybe it's signed already and they're waiting for today to announce it?

Sorry if this sounds too optimistic to some...

Could be... but... it doesn't really make any sense for BBD to bust their oft declared self-imposed deadline... but there is a chance. Afterall, if BBD doesn't build this aircraft they will eventually exit the field as so many others have before.

Oil coming down to $40/bbl from almost $150/bbl obviously really pulled the rug out from under BBD's biggest selling point. And oil is not going to go up for a long time... Boeing's long term forecast is for oil to be $75/bbl.

Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 9):
They might have to go without the 748i and without the C-Series now.

LH LOI was only for the C110 and LH already has E190 and E195's on order... so there really is no pressing 100-pax aircraft gap in fleet requirements.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5142 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13294 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
Boeing's long term forecast is for oil to be $75/bbl.

Can you provide a link for this? I wonder how "long term" is defined in Boeing's study. New oil is costing in the range of $90 a barrel to bring to production . To me it is obvious that the market cannot stay below the cost of bringing on new production for very long. Also, so far as I know, there has been no plan put in place to keep the speculators out of the market and they will be back as soon as they sense a turn around in the global economy.


User currently offlineIcebird757 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 666 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13173 times:

Maybe LH will increase their order for the E190/195?


LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13175 times:

Alberta tarsands oil is costing about $30/bbl to produce and that's some of the most expensive oil there is. When I was working in Yemen, their oil cost less than $2/bbl to produce. Saudi oil is even cheaper. It's going to be some time before $90/bbl to produce oil is going to be more than a fraction of the total supply.

That being said, when the economies of the world start turning around, the consumption will once again increase and the price will go up.

Forecasters never predicted $140/bbl oil, and the current price also took everybody by surprise. I don't take too much stock in predictions anymore.



What the...?
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12887 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 5):
You're a right little ray of sunshine, aren't you?

Realistically though, we are talking about a brand new airframe that's using a brand new (and as of this moment, unproven in service) engine. Lufthansa is understandably reticent to place firm orders on such a large gamble without strong, verifiable assurances from P&W that the GTF won't turn itself into very expensive shrapnel after a few thousand hours in the air.

However, should the GTF prove reliable and the CSeries capable of delivering on it's promised efficiency improvements, then there's no reason why the CSeries shouldn't become a sales success.

I'm sure there are other members here far more qualified than I to enumerate aircraft programs which despite teething problems or difficulty in finding initial orders went on to become quite successful.

LH is a large operater of the A319 with 20 in their fleet and 11 orders of this aircraft. If
Airbus decides to put the GTF on the A318 I think LH could swap some of their A319
orders into this aircraft. 54 orders for A319/A320/A321 that can be converted.
A320 production is very important for German economy.

[Edited 2009-02-03 14:25:09]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12765 times:
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I don't think GTFs are going to save the A318 (or the 737-600, just to show I'm not being partisan). Fuel burn alone isn't why they are not popular compared to their bigger sisters in the same family or the Regional Jets which offer similar capacity at better operating economics across the board.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12664 times:


Pratt & Whitney has completed ground and flight testing of the PurePower PW1000G demonstrator engine. The final phase of testing was completed jointly with Airbus on an A340-600 flight test aircraft and included 27 flights and more than 75 hours of flight testing. The PW1000G engine features Pratt & Whitney's patented Geared Turbofan technology and targets double-digit reductions in fuel burn, engine noise, environmental emissions and operating costs. Pratt & Whitney is a division of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX) .


The Airbus flight testing follows Pratt & Whitney's own ground and flight test program, during which the engine completed approximately 300 hours of ground testing and 12 flights on Pratt & Whitney's Boeing 747SP flying test bed. The PW1000G demonstrator engine successfully completed all test objectives.


"It is truly unprecedented to complete this amount of testing on a technology demonstrator engine," said Bob Saia, vice president, Next Generation Product Family. "We were able to complete all flight test objectives with flawless engine operation. The Airbus A340 flight test program included engine test evaluations normally conducted for a production engine certification. The PurePower PW1000G demonstrator engine successfully demonstrated the performance and operational benefits of the engine's unique gear system."


The most recent flight test program assessed in-flight performance, engine handling, in flight acoustics and aircraft installation of the demonstrator engine. Following the recent removal from the Airbus A340 aircraft, Pratt & Whitney will analyze the test data for engine design optimization during the next several months.


http://sev.prnewswire.com/aerospace-...se/20090203/NE6631303022009-1.html

Nothing on a LH contract.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12532 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
I don't think GTFs are going to save the A318 (or the 737-600, just to show I'm not being partisan). Fuel burn alone isn't why they are not popular compared to their bigger sisters in the same family or the Regional Jets which offer similar capacity at better operating economics across the board.

Surely the A318 isn´t the most efficent airplane around, but it flies today and have a proven trackrecord and no major modifications needed to the airframe compared with the stretch of the Bombardier900 to Bombardier1000.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12426 times:
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Well the CRJ-900 and CRJ-1000 are themselves flying today. And while the CRJ-1000 is still a prototype, the CRJ-900 has a proven track record as does the CRJ-700 and CRJ-200 so it's not like the CSeries is a total unknown from a company with no aerospace track record. One imagines LH performed proper due-diligence and determined the C110 was a better option for them then adding the A318 or the E-195 to their existing fleets of Airbus and Embraer planes.

User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12045 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
I don't think GTFs are going to save the A318 (or the 737-600, just to show I'm not being partisan). Fuel burn alone isn't why they are not popular compared to their bigger sisters in the same family or the Regional Jets which offer similar capacity at better operating economics across the board.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
Surely the A318 isn´t the most efficent airplane around, but it flies today and have a proven trackrecord and no major modifications needed to the airframe compared with the stretch of the Bombardier900 to Bombardier1000.

Stitch is right.
The A318 is too heavy and too expensive. The advantage of commonality with its bigger brothers is easily offest by being twice as expensive and burning too much fuel over Embraer-type aircraft.

The A318 is too heavy, so even if you put GTF engines on it, wit would still be less economical to operate than an E-190.
The C-series will burn even less than E-190's unless Embraer decide that it's time for them to stick those engines under their wings as well and that day will come one day.

So, unless Embraer is announcing GTF as an engine option, I don't think that the C-series is in trouble.

I'm also pretty sure that LH would keep their order and convert options very soon (they got 50 ARJ's to replace in LX and SN alone).

Me, I'm not a real Embraer lover as a passenger. They are uncomfortable and I always get a back ache when I step out of one of them. I don't have that problem with CRJ's or even less with Avro RJ's. I hope that C-series, MRJ's and future Embraer models focus on passenger comfort.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11675 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
And while the CRJ-1000 is still a prototype, the CRJ-900 has a proven track record as does the CRJ-700 and CRJ-200 so it's not like the CSeries is a total unknown from a company with no aerospace track record.

The CRJs, while updated, are nevertheless basically a 1970/80's design. The CSeries is way beyond anything BBD has ever done... much more difficult in relative terms than what the 787 experience has been for Boeing. Heck, the CRJ's are STILL having door problems!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...action-on-persistent-crj-door.html

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
One imagines LH performed proper due-diligence and determined the C110 was a better option for them then adding the A318 or the E-195 to their existing fleets of Airbus and Embraer planes.

You are a bit out of date regarding the E195...  Smile

Air Dolomiti takes delivery of first Embraer 195
A total of 30 modern E-Jets from Brazil for Lufthansa’s regional fleet

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html...e/pressemeldungen/20090127_01.html

Quoting NCB (Reply 19):
The C-series will burn even less than E-190's unless Embraer decide that it's time for them to stick those engines under their wings as well and that day will come one day.

No it won't. The CASM will be better due to its larger size but it will not burn less per trip.

Quoting NCB (Reply 19):
I'm also pretty sure that LH would keep their order and convert options very soon (they got 50 ARJ's to replace in LX and SN alone).

See above reply to Stitch.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 11):
Can you provide a link for this?

This was dated in September before oil really bottomed out...

Boeing: Stable oil prices at $70-$80 per barrel

Aircraft manufacturer Boeing says it anticipates oil prices to stabilise in the range of $70-$80 per barrel in 2008 dollars, over the next 20 years.

http://www.domainb.com/aero/aero_general/20080925_oil_prices.html

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 11):
New oil is costing in the range of $90 a barrel to bring to production .

No, that is just Tar Sands... Gulf oil is in the order of $20-30/bbl.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 11):
Also, so far as I know, there has been no plan put in place to keep the speculators out of the market and they will be back as soon as they sense a turn around in the global economy.

Absolutely! There is no more leveraging of up to 60 to 1 that drove up the price of oil. And it wasn't speculating... the "players" knew exactly how to drive up the price. Oil contracts were trading up to 20 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Alberta tarsands oil is costing about $30/bbl to produce and that's some of the most expensive oil there is.

That is old producers. If it was only $30/bbl you would not have all the Tar Sand project cancelations. Current Tar Sand costs is over $50/bbl.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
That being said, when the economies of the world start turning around, the consumption will once again increase and the price will go up.

No it won't because there is fundamental demand destruction.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Forecasters never predicted $140/bbl oil, and the current price also took everybody by surprise.

Yes they did... they were predicting $200/oil by the end of the year (2008)... all self-serving predictions to drive up the price.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...F7F-41F8-45F0-A133-630F12F2C764%7D

As soon as the credit crunch hit the hedge funds had to deleverage their positions which were not based on supply and demand fundamentals... hence the collapse to $40/bbl oil even though OPEC announced the largest production cut in history.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11277 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 20):
No it won't. The CASM will be better due to its larger size but it will not burn less per trip.


The E-190 and the C-series have about the same capacities, none is larger than the other, except for the 130 but you have to compare apples with apples.
So how can you achieve lower CASM if your trip fuel is greater?
Ask Embraer passengers to eat alot of beans and fart towards the rear of the aircraft or to loose at least 100 pounds between booking and flying?

Believe me, Embraer will get on board the GTF once their backlogs start to shrink. In the actual state of the economy they're not getting alot of orders. They're facing tough competition from the MRJ, C-series, CRJ, SSJ, ARJ (the Chinese one). I'm pretty positive that the E-190 won't need much additional ground clearance to hang a GTF on it.

Aaaah, why do I even have to bother replying to amateurs.

[Edited 2009-02-03 18:40:03]

[Edited 2009-02-03 18:44:17]

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10520 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 20):
Forecasters never predicted $140/bbl oil, and the current price also took everybody by surprise.

Yes they did... they were predicting $200/oil by the end of the year (2008)... all self-serving predictions to drive up the price.

Oh my lord...ok...5 years ago nobody predicted 140/bbl oil...much less 200/bbl oil. Last year at this time, nobody predicted sub 40/bbl oil.

Lots of people predict lots of things. Last year, global consumption of oil was 82 million bbls/day. Global production was 83, so their was a very real supply and demand component to the high prices. At the moment, the global economic downturn has reduced demand. As with most recession type happenings, this will eventually reverse. When it does, demand will rise again as will the price. That's my prediction. How high is anyone's guess.

The savings and loan scandals of the 80's looked a lot like the sub prime crisis...bad loans and bailouts. History repeats itself. Speculation driven by greed is the basis of the global stock markets. Lessons will not be learned because they never are and it will all happen again.

You are free to disagree.



What the...?
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10120 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 21):
The E-190 and the C-series have about the same capacities, none is larger than the other

The E190 is indeed smaller... in all Y the capacity is 114 pax (40 seats @ 30" and 74" @ 29") while the C110's capacity is 125 pax in all Y @ 30".

Quoting NCB (Reply 21):
So how can you achieve lower CASM if your trip fuel is greater?

The E190 is smaller and lighter and requires less thrust so it's trip fuel burn is less while the C110 has better CASM because it carries more pax.

Quoting NCB (Reply 21):
Believe me, Embraer will get on board the GTF once their backlogs start to shrink. In the actual state of the economy they're not getting alot of orders. They're facing tough competition from the MRJ, C-series, CRJ, SSJ, ARJ (the Chinese one).

They are not facing any competition. And their backlog is not shrinking.

How many orders does the CSeries have? MRJ? SSJ? ARJ? Let alone getting FAA certification for the SSJ and ARJ!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
At the moment, the global economic downturn has reduced demand.

And OPEC has made record production cuts... yet oil is only $40/bbl.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
As with most recession type happenings, this will eventually reverse.

But petroleum oil consumption will not increase because fuel economy will accelerate as the global vehicle fleet is renewed with more fuel efficient, flex fuel, hybrid and electric vehicles. State governments are already concerned about the loss of tax revenues because of future decreases in gas sales. The above is coupled with the follow up to Kyoto and the upcoming cap and trade in North America.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10064 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 23):
Quoting NCB (Reply 21):
Believe me, Embraer will get on board the GTF once their backlogs start to shrink. In the actual state of the economy they're not getting alot of orders. They're facing tough competition from the MRJ, C-series, CRJ, SSJ, ARJ (the Chinese one).

They are not facing any competition. And their backlog is not shrinking.

I think we can all agree Embraer (supported by a visionairy governement ? ) gambled and won when they jumped in the gab left open by aircraft like F100, BAE146, 737-200 and DC9's.

During the last 10 yrs and for at least 3-4 yrs to come they are the only alternative around 100 seats. If you needed aircraft in this category you could not get around the, recently also European big operators bit the bullit (BA, AF, LH, KLM).

If we look at the E-Jets orderbook it become clear the majority of orders are for the Emb-190. C110 is probably bigger heavier then Emb190 but offer probably more range / space and can be combined in operation with the C130. If the GTF indeed offers >10% fuel reductions and less noise I have little doubt Embraer will talk to PW and / or GE about a better engine.


25 Planemaker : Nope... all financed internally without government money. It wasn't a gamble. They won the Crossair order against BBD and FD. At the same time they b
26 Alessandro : You forget the political aspect of it, A320 is very important for German economy and if the backlogs suffer a lot due to cancellations, I still can s
27 Swacle : Not sure whos E-jets you have been flying on, but I will take any E-Jet over its next closest competitor any day of the week. The E70/75/90/95 seats
28 Sirtoby : National questions do not play a role in LH's fleet planning and up to now therer are not a lot cancellations for the A320 line. The A318 is just to
29 TN486 : The Fokker F27 comes to mind, yes?
30 TN486 : From an amateurs point of view, please continue to be patient, as it is great to learn from a professional, one of the reasons why I subscribed to A.
31 NCB : At 32 inch pitch, the C110 carries 110 passengers. At 32 inch pitch, the E-190 carries 106 passengers. This is no Wikipedia, it's straight from the m
32 Post contains links Keesje : Now, do you honestly believe that? Then the 787 and A350 too probably? http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9B06E3DD1E31F930A3575BC0A96F958260
33 TISTPAA727 : LOL - I just laughed so hard my coworkers gave me a funny look. I think we have debated this horse to death. LH, like AF and many others, are not inf
34 Post contains links Mrocktor : Well, aside from not having any orders, there is this: Embraer Considers Making Bigger Jets to Rival Boeing, Airbus
35 Mrocktor : The books are open... there is not a cent of government money in funding the development of the E-jets. As for what you linked, Brazil's interest rat
36 Arrow : A little disingenuous, wouldn't you say? You would need to factor in exchange rates to properly analyze those spreads. Brazil and Canada almost went
37 Planemaker : Then surely you can read that the web-site says 31" and 32"... not an apple to apple pitch config. That is why max capacity with both aircraft at the
38 Alessandro : So why did LH order the Do728, yes I know it was later cancelled. KLM flies load of Fokkers. It´s all how eager Airbus is to get working experience
39 Keesje : GE ordered five and took 20 options in March 08
40 Planemaker : Gee, I wonder if GE supplies the engines??? Gee, I wonder which foreign airline is going to operate them???
41 NCB : Alright, you want the debate, you got it Alright how many E170/E190 did Embraer deliver in 2008? No need to search, I got the number: 156. A great ac
42 Planemaker : Good sense of humor! But I thought you wanted a serious debate! (BTW, you forgot to mention that there are over 800 options.) Zero? Well, you obvious
43 NCB : Well, we shall see but I don't think that you have any strong arguments. I don't know about your imaginary reality. A bit out of the lines but Richard
44 Mrocktor : An interest rate is an interest rate, no matter what the exchange rate.
45 Planemaker : Facts are facts. Once again... zero????? ZERO????? How in the world can you repeatedly say ZERO?? "Started selling well only after EIS"??? Try like o
46 Post contains links Hloutweg : Could they be holding on to something with Luthansa? However, it seems that Mexicana is also laying its sight on the C-Series for when the new 717s to
47 Columba : What do you meant with that exactly ? Sounds good !!!
48 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7872786.stm IMO this is not the action of a company that is about to announce the order of 60 new planes, (which i
49 Post contains links Bravo1six : Those cuts are on the bizjet side of the house, not the commercial aircraft programs. BBD's press release about the cuts is here: http://www.bombardi
50 NCB : Find your mistake and come again once you have. Or maybe you can't read: "Very nice remark, but how many E-170/190's had Embraer sold over 4 years be
51 Planemaker : You can now attempt to change the meaning of your assertion... but it makes no difference - you just stuck your other foot in your mouth! You have re
52 NCB : The order never got delivered, so I don't see your point. I can make it even tighter for you, the E170 entered service 18 months later than scheduled
53 Hloutweg : Sorry for being so vague, I really just meant to say that Bombardier and Luthansa could be holding, rather, on the public about firming their commitm
54 Planemaker : I merely refuted your incorrect assertion... you stated that EMB had no orders 4 years before EIS... and EMB did. You are wrong... again! It was 15 m
55 AirbusA370 : I think, the big question is, when will we first see an A vs B vs C(series) thread on A.net?
56 Keesje : So now you've had your incorrect assertion refuted you've switched from your original " order" to "operate"...
57 Planemaker : The point of my assertion still stands... "order" or "operate". SO.... which foreign airline is going to ORDER the ARJ21 from GE???
58 NCB : My apologies, it looks like it's a mix of 733's and 734's indeed, I was writing out of the top of my head, I knew they had 10 from VEX and that they
59 Planemaker : If the 5 x 733s "are just not making money" and "need to be replaced very very soon"... SN wouldn't (couldn't) wait for the C130... and continue to l
60 NCB : The 737's can be filled in the summer but not at all in the winter. SN was involved in the development of the SSJ and was interested for Avro RJ repl
61 Planemaker : The unanswered fundamental question is...
62 NCB : Airlines rather wait 2 more years than rush their replacements to stick with inadequate aircraft for 20 years. All LH Embraer orders are already desti
63 ZRH : I am not sure if this is correct. There is also the rumor that the SWISS AVRO RJ 100 will be replaced by these E-jets.
64 NCB : Well in fact, I just asked a knowledgeable German friend and he told me that LH will probably not get any Embraer's and that most of them will go to
65 ZRH : The problem is that SWISS can't use the C-series because on of the most important routes they fly the AVROs is LCY (9 daily from ZRH, also from GVA a
66 Post contains links NCB : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-city-airport-operations-with.html C110 will definintely get into LCY. My friend told me that the reason why L
67 Planemaker : Perhaps I am not being clear enough. You said... "11 B734's that need to be replaced very very soon" "The reason why they need to be replaced is beca
68 Post contains links OyKIE : Bombardier has according to ATWonline said that "the CSeries program is making excellent progress. It plans to release full-year financial results on
69 ZRH : Thanks for this information and the link. Sounds interesting and widens, in my opinion, the chances of the C-series.
70 Incitatus : You seem to be making comparative statements using a planned EIS of an airplane that we don't even know if it will be really built. Too early to tell
71 NCB : It is available because it has been launched. It can be ordered but will only be delivered from 2013. Frankly, I have better things to do than to arg
72 Astral : Hate to remind many of you that AVIC of China is the largest Full Risk Sharing Partner (RSP) in the C-Series program. China has put heavy political, i
73 NCB : Great, let us know!
74 Incitatus : You have a made a series of baseless claims about a product that does not yet exist. The way out of it is to be dismissive. Again, who with any compe
75 NCB : No one. But who cares? Does it really matter? All that was said is that it's too early to say that the Cseries is a failure. Again, how many orders d
76 LifelinerOne : Then why is Air Dolomiti receiving them from the Lufthansa-order? Cheers!
77 LH452 : Here is my . I predict that Bombardier will announce 75-100 firm orders by Paris Air Show. LH 452
78 NCB : It's a bit complicated. Plan A: The 6 Embraers were allocated for MXP expansion using the Air Dolomiti brand, not Bae replacement. Plan B: The first
79 CARST : It was mentioned now that LX and EN are getting E-Jets from the LH order. Are you sure that LH itself isn't getting any E-Jets? I thought they want t
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