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Is LAX-NRT Unique?  
User currently offlineOntime From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9426 times:

I was looking into flights from LAX to NRT, and I was surprised to see that there are no less than seven airlines flying this route nonstop:

AA
UA
NW
KE
SQ
JL
NH

Yet none of these carriers flies the route more than once per day. I can't think of another route with the traffic to support seven different airlines offering nonstop service, but not a single carrier offering two (or more) flights per day.

Are there other routes strong enough to have this amount of competition with no dominant carrier?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9405 times:

If by unique, you mean is LAX the largest market to NRT in North America, then yes it is.

The reason LAX can support all those flights is because LAX is by far the largest market to NRT in North America. LAX is also the largest market to Asia in the US. That helps feed the flights too.



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User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8553 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9402 times:
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interesting point - I can't think of any other route with this number of carriers and none operating at more than daily frequency , in the past both RG and TG also operated on this sector - though both operated with only 3-4 weekly flights - IIRC from back when these services operated there was 1 day per week with 5 *A operated services in one direction ( cannot recall whether it was NRT-LAX or v v ) RG/TG/UA/NH/SQ

damned AZERTY keyboard !! corrected from SA to SQ

[Edited 2009-02-03 17:30:24]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineOntime From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9374 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
If by unique, you mean is LAX the largest market to NRT in North America, then yes it is.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. By unique I meant having that many choices of airlines with no carrier dominant enough to offer more than one flight a day (i.e., seven different carriers offering just seven flights a day.)

[Edited 2009-02-03 18:04:19]

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9328 times:

I think LAX-NRT is very unique, just as unique as JFK-LHR. I thnk there is something special about these 2 routes.

Los Angeles-Tokyo and New York-London, something nostalgic about it.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9282 times:



Quoting Ontime (Reply 3):
By unique I meant having that many choices of airlines with no dominant carrier

Ahh my bad. As Juventus points out, LAX-NRT is comparable to JFK-LHR. JFK-LHR is the USA's largest Transatlantic route from an O&D stand point while LAX-NRT is the same over the Pacific. I think its this that allows there to be so many carriers without having a dominant one.

I would compare it to HKG-LHR, SYD-SIN, MIA-GRU, etc.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9262 times:



Quoting Ontime (Reply 3):
By unique I meant having that many choices of airlines with no dominant carrier

Could argue this to some degree on the Kangaroo route and specifically LHR - SYD:

QF, BA, CX, SQ, TG, EK, and I believe VS, KE, MH, EY are all mulitple daily players, with a lot of others once daily.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9191 times:

Well, part of the question is, with code sharing, is this really true?

AA and JL code share, so both have 2 fights a day due to the partnership.

KE and NW/DL codeshare, so both have 2 flights.

UA codeshares with NH, so both have 2 flights a day.

SQ could codeshare with UA, but chooses not to because of inferior service. Not sure if they codeshare with NH.

This of course doesn't add to 13 actual flights, but it explains why there are single flights per carrier. If AA and UA weren't serving the route with their own metal, either JL or NH would have a second frequency, or possibly both.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9178 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
LAX is by far the largest market to NRT in North America.

At one time (quite a few years ago) I think SFO had more direct service to Tokyo than LAX.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8341 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9056 times:
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Quoting Ontime (Thread starter):
AA
UA
NW
KE
SQ
JL
NH

Three USA and two Japanesse airlines isn't anything odd. Singapore has had a service to LAX via Tokyo since the late 1970's, no surprise given the distance. Korean is a little surprising they still operate a servcice stopping in NRT with so many Seoul - LAX nonstops.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3591 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9001 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Korean is a little surprising they still operate a servcice stopping in NRT with so many Seoul - LAX nonstops.

If I'm not mistaken, Korean got their rights by sub-letting them from Delta with the assocoated NRT slots when DL stopped flying LAX-NRT.

I am not sure of the present status of this arrangement.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8553 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8960 times:
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Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
If I'm not mistaken, Korean got their rights by sub-letting them from Delta with the assocoated NRT slots when DL stopped flying LAX-NRT.

I think that you might be mistaken , as far as I am aware KE were flying LAX-NRT many years ago , long before any association with DL


in fact I just checked the history section of KEs website , they are coming up for the 20th anniversary of SEL-NRT-LAX flights as they started in Mar 1989 . Prior to that they operated SEL-NRT-HNL-LAX starting in Apr 1972

[Edited 2009-02-03 18:57:16]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1645 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8928 times:

Short (and facetious) answer to the question posed in the thread: "Is LAX-NRT unique?"

Answer, yes it is. There is only one of them . . .  Smile



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineHuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8858 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
LAX-NRT is comparable to JFK-LHR.

I am pretty sure frequencies are far higher in the JFK-LHR route?

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
HKG-LHR,

Don't think this is comparable either, for CX flies four flights per day, BA three, VS two and one each for QF and NZ. Surely CX is far more dominant thatn QF or NZ.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
SYD-SIN

SQ has three flights a day, BA and QF (exclude 3 one-stop flights) two flights a day each. While it can be said that SQ is not too far dominant, it is essentially just 3 airlines!



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8851 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
If I'm not mistaken, Korean got their rights by sub-letting them from Delta with the assocoated NRT slots when DL stopped flying LAX-NRT.

KE has had 5th freedom rights LAX-NRT for many years. It has nothing to do with DL.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8553 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8824 times:
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Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 13):
SQ has three flights a day, BA and QF (exclude 3 one-stop flights) two flights a day each. While it can be said that SQ is not too far dominant, it is essentially just 3 airlines!

since QF and BA operate LHR-SIN under their JSA you could consider that to be 4 frequencies by a single operator ... incidentally , what are the 3 one stop flights QF operate SIN-LHR ? I was under the impression that they were all nonstop



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8822 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
If I'm not mistaken, Korean got their rights by sub-letting them from Delta with the assocoated NRT slots when DL stopped flying LAX-NRT.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
I think that you might be mistaken , as far as I am aware KE were flying LAX-NRT many years ago , long before any association with DL

I flew LAX - NRT on KE in March of 1990 at that time DL service to NRT service was via PDX.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8788 times:

To add, prior to 2002, MH had three weekly 744s on NRT-LAX.
Also for a short time DL also operated NRT-LAX daily with the MD-11.
JL has operated more than one daily in the past as has UA.
Amongst all the carriers, AA is the newest.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8759 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
At one time (quite a few years ago) I think SFO had more direct service to Tokyo than LAX.

I don't believe it has in modern times. PA (and later UA), NW and JL served LAX/SFO-NRT for many years. NH began LAX-NRT in 1986 but waited until late 1998 to inaugurate SFO. And SQ and KE have served the LAX-NRT market for quite awhile.

- - -

At its peak (early this decade) LAX-NRT was served by UA (14x weekly with 744), NW (7x742), JL (12x744), NH (7x777), DL (7xM11), SQ (7x744), KE (7x744), MH (3x744), RG (4xM11) and VASP (4xM11).

- - -

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
KE and NW/DL codeshare, so both have 2 flights.

No, they don't. DL-NW does not share revenue on LAX-NRT (and I don't believe any of the other carriers you mentioned do either). A few coins get tossed DL-NW's way if you book the codeshare, but they'd much prefer you to travel on their metal.

This contrasts to say, DTW-AMS, where it makes no difference if you fly NW or KL -- the revenue is split equally.

[Edited 2009-02-03 19:23:37]


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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8702 times:



Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 18):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
At one time (quite a few years ago) I think SFO had more direct service to Tokyo than LAX.

I don't think so. PA/UA, NW and JL served LAX/SFO-NRT for years. NH began LAX-NRT in 1986, but waited until late 1998 to launch SFO-NRT. Meanwhile, SQ and KE have served LAX-NRT for quite awhile.

I was going back further than that, to the 707 and DC-8 era. I'm quite sure SFO had nonstop service to Tokyo before LAX. The same was true to the South Pacific. SFO was the only mainland U.S. city with direct flights (via HNL) to SYD for quite a few years. If memory correct, the first nonstops to Australia were also from SFO on Pan Am 747SPs.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8611 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I was going back further than that, to the 707 and DC-8 era. I'm quite sure SFO had nonstop service to Tokyo before LAX. The same was true to the South Pacific. SFO was the only mainland U.S. city with direct flights (via HNL) to SYD for quite a few years. If memory correct, the first nonstops to Australia were also from SFO on Pan Am 747SPs.

JL began through service to SFO in 1954 and LAX in 1959. Nonstop service was introduced to both cities in 1970. (I'm not sure which one was first).

NW began through service to SFO in 1969. Nonstop service was introduced to SFO, as well as LAX, in 1970. (And again, I'm not certain which one was first).

PA began through service to Toyko in the late 1940s (from NYC, I believe... not certain if SFO or LAX came first). LAX-HNL-NRT was their first t-pac 747 route.

So I guess it's kinda how you view it... but in the modern jet era, LAX has surpassed SFO.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8565 times:

Forgot to add: PA's first direct service from the mainland USA to SYD was from LAX. Actually, I don't believe they served SYD-SYD n/s.


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8552 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
If I'm not mistaken, Korean got their rights by sub-letting them from Delta with the assocoated NRT slots when DL stopped flying LAX-NRT.



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 17):
Amongst all the carriers, AA is the newest

Within months of DL ending LAX-NRT, AA launched it. I believe AA picked up the Delta authority.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8540 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 22):
Within months of DL ending LAX-NRT, AA launched it. I believe AA picked up the Delta authority.

They delayed it a full year though. I was booked on it, only to have to go LAX-DFW-NRT instead, though at the time, the LAX-DFW leg was also a 777, and had the better F product than the DFW-LAX which had the old coffin seats.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8506 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21):
Forgot to add: PA's first direct service from the mainland USA to SYD was from LAX. Actually, I don't believe they served SYD-SYD n/s.

Do you know when it started? Their September 1982 timetable doesn't show any nonstop service from either LAX or SFO to SYD. Everything is via HNL.

[Edited 2009-02-03 20:29:13]

25 Post contains links CompensateMe : (Excuse the typo from my previously posting... it should read 'Actually, I don't believe [PA] ever served SFO-SYD n/s.) I don't have my timetables off
26 SurfandSnow : Given that Haneda is gradually opening up to international traffic, is it possible we may see a LAX-HND service in the future? I imagine such a flight
27 Ikramerica : This doesn't make sense. Can anyone confirm this? The whole point of a codeshare is to be able to sell your tickets on someone else's plane and get a
28 Kiwiandrew : at the risk of going OT , you do not necessarily get a piece of the pie in terms of revenues , codeshare agreements between different airlines differ
29 Carpethead : It's not more of authority rather the slot situation at NRT. AA had discontinued NRT-SEA in early 2002, so they had the slots to transfer it to LAX.
30 Kiwiandrew : I am pretty sure that TG had a 3 x weekly rotation on the route as well ?
31 Atcanobbio : with all these airlines serving daily, do you guys think the market is underserved, overserved, or the current amount of flights is enough for the ma
32 Travelin man : I think LAX is "unique" in that no one US carrier dominates traffic there, and foreign carriers take a very large part of the int'l traffic. Thus, wit
33 4EVERVARIG : I don't believe VASP flew to NRT...They served ICN (Seoul-Incheon) 4 Weekly for a while and I think they served Haneda. RG served 4 Weekly to NRT and
34 UAL747 : You could also argue two points: 1. No American Carrier really has a hub at LAX. The nearest airline I would assume would be UA, but most of their ope
35 Naritaflyer : A few years ago both JL and UA operated douuble-daily on NRT-LAX. There used to be 10 flights a day plus some oddball flights on others like Malaysian
36 Timz : No argument there. SFO got its first hopefully-no-fuel-stop nonstop from Tokyo around 1961, before fanjets. As I recall PA didn't claim to fly westwa
37 DFWEagle : Actually, AA ended SEA-NRT in January 2002 and those NRT slots were then used for the new JFK-NRT route which started shortly afterwards. AA only sta
38 LAXdude1023 : The hell it is. There is tons of business traffic in LA and SoCal and tons of high yeilding traffic. More so than anywhere except NYC. To say LA is a
39 UAL747 : I knew by not phrasing that correctly I was going to get a response like yours. Sorry.... Yes, there are TONS of business to be had at LAX. I didn't
40 Viscount724 : Many codeshares are simply so the carrier putting its code on another carrier's flight has a presence in the market and thus picks up passengers conn
41 Stargold : I think it's generally rare to see much more than about 4 airlines serving a single international route. LHR-HKG also comes to mind as being quite den
42 LAXdude1023 : No worries. NYC is definately the largest business market in the US. LA is, however the second largest business market in the US. Thats nothing to sn
43 Timz : PA started a nonstop to SYD (or maybe just from SYD) soon after getting the 747SP-- don't recall offhand whether from SFO or LAX, but I'll guess LAX.
44 Viscount724 : LHR/LGW-JFK/EWR (all airports combined) is currently just under 30, mostly daily, on 7 carriers, all widebodies except 2 CO 757s LHR-EWR.
45 Huaiwei : The said sector actually refers to SIN-SYD, where QF flies three times via ADL. I think there are plenty of such routes all around the world, unless
46 LipeGIG : You're right. Vasp was never authorized to fly to Japan.
47 BSBIsland : Vasp did fly to KIX for a few years in the 90s.
48 Stargold : LHR-JFK is 16 widebodies per day on 5 airlines, so I suppose JFK wins over HKG... I wouldn't have counted LGW or EWR in my total personally. BA has 7
49 Jfk777 : In the beginning the SP was only nonstop from Australia to SFO. AS Pratt & Whitney made the engines more efficient LAX to Sydney became a reality.
50 Directorguy : If you believe the rumours (by rumours I mean stuff thought up by airline cybergeek ), EK may become the 8th player on this route in the not too dista
51 Timz : Must not have lasted long-- I can't find NW flying Tokyo-SFO or Tokyo-LAX nonstop in any 1970s timetable.
52 Viscount724 : That also didn't sound correct to me. In NW's December 1974 timetable all SFO and LAX-Tokyo (HND then) flights were via HNL. Their only west coast no
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