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Paine Field Flights Get Tentative Snohomish Co. OK  
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 28
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

The Snohomish County Council gave an OK to county staff to negotiate commercial flights by Allegiant and Horizon at Paine Field.

This is not a final go ahead, but indicates that the county recognizes they have to negotiate in good faith. Some of the politicians still are opposed to commercial service but recognize the FAA requirements to continue to receive federal grant money for airfield improvements.

The County Council passed a resolution that a terminal building should be paid for from leases, airline fees and federal grants but no county funds.

Interestingly, the Port of Everett has said they are willing to build and operate a terminal if the county does not.

Still a long way to go before passengers board at PAE, but its one more step toward service.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090204/NEWS01/902049942

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090204/NEWS01/702049879


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2848 times:
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I give it another year or two. It won't take long to build a make-shift terminal using double-wide units. I think PAE service would do well to boost the Snohomish County economy.

If anything, could the officials limit the number of departures at PAE, kind of like they do at LGB?

When it becomes a reality, I wouldn't be surprised to see other airlines trying PAE out.


User currently offlineEverett67 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2834 times:
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Hey I'm all for it. Try going to SeaTac anymore and not have it take at least an hour to get there. And that's just from the Everett area.

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2758 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
I give it another year or two. It won't take long to build a make-shift terminal using double-wide units. I think PAE service would do well to boost the Snohomish County economy.

If anything, could the officials limit the number of departures at PAE, kind of like they do at LGB?

When it becomes a reality, I wouldn't be surprised to see other airlines trying PAE out.

They cannot limit the number of departures.

But they can build the terminal very small to avoid having room for a lot of flights. I expect that is the direction they will go.

We will probably see a small terminal with a small passenger hold room that could handle maybe 100 people or so.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5793 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2747 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 3):
We will probably see a small terminal with a small passenger hold room that could handle maybe 100 people or so.

I would think something that could handle Q400's, E-Jets, and the occasional [Allegiant] MD80 would be adequate in the mid-term. While I would love to see no restrictions on the services provided by carriers at the airport, realistically a regional use would be the most appropriate focus.

The SEA Central Terminal is beautiful now, and the spotting is much more interesting in many respects than PAE, but it really would be a wonderful convenience to many in the north sound area.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2744 times:
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Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 3):
They cannot limit the number of departures.

If that's the case, then explain how LGB and SNA can limit flights.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2719 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
If that's the case, then explain how LGB and SNA can limit flights.

They were grandfathered in when Congress passed the Airport Noise and Capacity Act in 1990. The Act says only the federal govt can approve airport limits.

ANCA allowed an exemption for " a local action to enforce a negotiated or executed airport aircraft noise or access agreement between the airport operator and the aircraft operator in effect on the date of the enactment of this Act;"

SNA and LGB had already been sued before ANCA so they were allowed to settle the suits by enforcing limits.

If someone sued today it would be next to impossible to get limits put in place due simply to noise.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2715 times:



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 4):
I would think something that could handle Q400's, E-Jets, and the occasional [Allegiant] MD80 would be adequate in the mid-term. While I would love to see no restrictions on the services provided by carriers at the airport, realistically a regional use would be the most appropriate focus.

What they would probably try to build would be something that could handle only 1 or 2 flights on any of those at one time.

Basically that would limit the total number of flights. No available space or gates then no service could be added.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5793 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2705 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 7):
What they would probably try to build would be something that could handle only 1 or 2 flights on any of those at one time.

Basically that would limit the total number of flights. No available space or gates then no service could be added.

So to be clear, they would have to offer the ability for carriers to operate there, but they would be able to limit the size of the facility? Just wanting to be clear. So theoretically if QX wanted to fly four flights an hour out of PAE, they would either have to have multiple flights departing from one gate (if the other was being used by G4 et al) or else simply have to settle for, say, two flights per hour or so.

Or, alternatively, could someone else (Horizon, the Port of Everett, etc.) pay to build a separate terminal, bypassing Snohomish County's desire to limit service?

Thanks in advance for any clarification on this.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

My understanding is they have been told by a consultant there is nothing that requires a terminal be built to handle more than they have commitments for right now.

The county's airport law consultant said:
there is "no obligation to build facilities that accommodate future growth beyond the existing proposals. The County's actions might have the consequence of making future growth inconvenient or costly but the County has no legal obligation to anticipate growth of passenger operations unless it has received a definite proposal for such service,"
http://heraldnet.com/article/20090112/NEWS01/701129883

Allegiant is talking a few days a week to LAS and Horizon only a few flights to GEG and PDX. So theoretically they could build a terminal with only one gate and get away with the constraints on future flight growth.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2568 times:
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Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 6):
They were grandfathered in when Congress passed the Airport Noise and Capacity Act in 1990. The Act says only the federal govt can approve airport limits.

ANCA allowed an exemption for " a local action to enforce a negotiated or executed airport aircraft noise or access agreement between the airport operator and the aircraft operator in effect on the date of the enactment of this Act;"

SNA and LGB had already been sued before ANCA so they were allowed to settle the suits by enforcing limits.

If someone sued today it would be next to impossible to get limits put in place due simply to noise.

Thanks for the insight. I guess I'm not too old to learn new things.

Is it possible to say that G4 may want more flights out of PAE outside of the initial flights to LAS?


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2564 times:
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Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
I give it another year or two.

They are much closer than that. I would give you details, but the Save Our City (SOC) people would go nuts.

PS - they should rename it Save Ur City (SUC)


User currently offlineA10WARTHOG From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2486 times:

At one time QX was say April time frame to start service.

I read something about Seaport might start flying to PDX, as soon as February sometime. Of course SOC would love to see that, because they said it might force QX to double think coming to PAE


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2450 times:



Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 12):
I read something about Seaport might start flying to PDX, as soon as February sometime. Of course SOC would love to see that, because they said it might force QX to double think coming to PAE

Why? QX hasn't even had to wink at Seaport's BFI-PDX route. In the last available T-100 data...Seaport carried 660 pax or so each way vs. QX's over 30,000 on SEA-PDX. Seaport's pitch for not having TSA wouldn't really matter for pax leaving PAE because when only one flight leaves at a time, it won't exactly take hours to get through security.

QX's proposal for PAE-GEG would be more of a point to point routing that Seaport could potentially go head to head on. But any pax in the Snohomish County area that wants to go anywhere other than PDX would be better served by flying QX and connecting from there.


User currently offlineMattcawby From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 209 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2421 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):

I give it another year or two. It won't take long to build a make-shift terminal using double-wide units

There already is a terminal building at the airport, and the FAA has reserved an area mid-field for future expansion. Horizon Air starts service at Paine Field in April 09.



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User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

The problem with limiting the terminal size as a way of limiting traffic is that it only frustrates the traveling public and the airlines. When folks in the North Sound see how convenient PAE is, they'll clamor for more service.. and airlines will give it to them, regardless of the facility's size. For a good example of this, see SBA.

My prediction.. in 10 years there will be a terminal with 5-10 jetways. There will be nonstop service to SEA (for easier traffic, parking, and security), GEG, PDX, SLC, LAS, PHX, LAX, and perhaps even DEN. Not all on Horizon or Allegiant either. Bus service will connect the terminal with the Edmonds and Mukilteo ferries, and maybe even Anacortes. Noise restrictions and a curfew will be in place.. but with the nice, long runway and quiet airplanes, these will place few operational restrictions.

If they really want to get serious, they'll need to upgrade the ILS to cat III capability. PAE consistently has the worst visibility in the entire Sound, with both fog and heavy precip from the PSCZ.


User currently offlineA10WARTHOG From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2318 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 13):
Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 12):
I read something about Seaport might start flying to PDX, as soon as February sometime. Of course SOC would love to see that, because they said it might force QX to double think coming to PAE

Why?

Just what I read. Does not make sense to me, but then again I think SOC is very narrow minded. I would love the PDX and GEG service.


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2293 times:



Quoting A10WARTHOG (Reply 16):
Just what I read. Does not make sense to me, but then again I think SOC is very narrow minded. I would love the PDX and GEG service.

Yeah I have a feeling that once the flights start they will be pretty successful. When everyone realizes that they no longer have to plow through that 1-2 hour commute and pay the hideous parking fees at or around Sea-Tac, they'll be willing to hear a little extra noise.


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
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I think airlines at PAE could potentially be very successful, especially if there are convenient links to the ferry services. QX could profit a lot off of PAE...likewise G4. I think there would have to be an east-west player like DL or CO.

Yes...Passenger service at PAE could have a huge snowball effect.

Little off the subject, if Olympia's airport could expand and extend its runway, that could have lots of potential as well.


User currently offlineREALDEAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

so if Allegiant flew to PAE would they still fly to Bellingham ?

Thought many vancouverites flew out of Bellingham? (save on Canadian taxes for a start)

Or would they fly to both PAE & BLI ?


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2134 times:



Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 19):
so if Allegiant flew to PAE would they still fly to Bellingham ?

Most likely. I'm sure a lot of their draw in BLI is Canadians. But if you flew out of PAE you'd not only have most of Snohomish County covered, but North King County would definitely be within reach. I mean, if you flew out of SEA and drove that far, driving to PAE wouldn't be much different.


User currently offlineREALDEAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2086 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 20):
Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 19):
so if Allegiant flew to PAE would they still fly to Bellingham ?

Most likely. I'm sure a lot of their draw in BLI is Canadians. But if you flew out of PAE you'd not only have most of Snohomish County covered, but North King County would definitely be within reach. I mean, if you flew out of SEA and drove that far, driving to PAE wouldn't be much different.

apparently as the crow flies only 63 miles between BLI & PAE so PAE could also service Canadians as only another hour or so down the road.


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2178 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2066 times:



Quoting Kohflot (Reply 15):
The problem with limiting the terminal size as a way of limiting traffic is that it only frustrates the traveling public and the airlines. When folks in the North Sound see how convenient PAE is, they'll clamor for more service.. and airlines will give it to them, regardless of the facility's size. For a good example of this, see SBA.

See also HPN, this situation sounds like it could end up being very similar.


User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2007 times:



Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 21):
apparently as the crow flies only 63 miles between BLI & PAE so PAE could also service Canadians as only another hour or so down the road.

That would depend alot on what time of day you are making that drive. Time it right and you can do it in under an hour-- time it wrong and it'll take closer to two hours~ BTDT!!!

I only lived in Everett for 15 years or so. My family still lives there-- five miles (or less) from Paine Field~ as well as Family in Bellingham/Ferndale. Sometime soon I'll be moving back up that way myself...



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1837 times:



Quoting REALDEAL (Reply 19):
Thought many vancouverites flew out of Bellingham? (save on Canadian taxes for a start)

Maybe some on Allegiant to LAS, but I think BLI's only other scheduled service is 6 daily AS (Horizon) Q400s to SEA. I doubt many YVR passengers would drive to BLI and contend with often long waits at the border, then fly to SEA with a connection to wherever they're going. If they were going to do that they'd probably drive all the way to SEA where fares are lower than from BLI. With the US$ again significantly stronger than the CA$, that's another deterrent.


25 FATFlyer : Canadians make up about 1/2 of the passengers on the Allegiant flights to LAS, OAK, SAN, PSP, RNO, and IWA.
26 SANFan : Just noticed this little tidbit stuck in the middle of the thread. Service starting in 2 months and no p r from AS, or anyone else, yet? Source and d
27 Post contains links Hatbutton : http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090110/NEWS01/701109920 There's nothing set yet. But that was the target date that QX wanted to start up. Don't kn
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