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DL To Announce JFK-PAP Starting 20June09  
User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 309 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9692 times:

My sources tell me that DL is set to announce new service nonstop JFK-PAP beginning June 20, 2009 using 757s and 737-800s. FINALLY, some competition for the Silverbird virtual monopoly. Should be a nice addition to the JFK portfolio, and will likely be a good codeshare with AF/KL.

Hooray for DL!

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32194 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9724 times:

Daily 752.

DL 435 JFK 0900-1154 PAP
DL 436 PAP 1254-1739 JFK

Quoting DL747400 (Thread starter):
and will likely be a good codeshare with AF/KL.

AF already flies to PAP on their own metal from Miami and Pointe Pitre. IIRC, AF will soon be celebrating 30 years of service on MIA-PAP.

[Edited 2009-02-09 17:40:36]


a.
User currently offlinePanam330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9675 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Daily 752.

The int'l-configured bird, the transcon, or the standard-config bird?  Wink

Good to see some more 'unique' expansion here. Hopefully DL does well!


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9648 times:
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Quoting Panam330 (Reply 2):
Good to see some more 'unique' expansion here. Hopefully DL does well!

DL will do well at PAP, still waiting for JFK-KIN to be launched.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9507 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
AF already flies to PAP on their own metal from Miami and Pointe Pitre. IIRC, AF will soon be celebrating 30 years of service on MIA-PAP.

 checkmark With those times, it looks like they aren't aiming for connections from Europe, and they shouldn't need to. It's pretty similar to AA's summer schedule:

AA837 JFK 0945 PAP 1250 763 Daily
AA896 PAP 1400 JFK 1915 763 Daily



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3068 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9487 times:

This should be a good market for DL. It's exactly the type of market that has potential to be very profitable: high yield, low competition. There's some risk involved, but DL isn't a stranger to operating in risky markets.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
With those times, it looks like they aren't aiming for connections from Europe, and they shouldn't need to. It's pretty similar to AA's summer schedule

To offer European connections, an overnight at PAP would likely be necessary. Not even AA is willing to risk that, and they've been in the market for years.


User currently offlineLoftypraise From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9419 times:

PAP is wide open for competition. See http://flyhere.com/pap basically flights to anywhere non-stop are competition free.

User currently offlineCokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1167 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9143 times:

How long before they move the flight to ATL ?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32194 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9046 times:



Quoting CokePopper (Reply 7):
How long before they move the flight to ATL ?

I doubt they ever will considering around 90%+ of U.S.-PAP traffic goes to Miami, Fort Lauderdale and New York City. It is easily the most Miami/New York-centric market in all of Latin America and the Caribbean.

And outside of MIA/NYC/FLL, the only markets with any sort of demand are TPA/MCO/YUL/BOS.



a.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16949 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9016 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
DL will do well at PAP, still waiting for JFK-KIN to be launched.

I'm surprised this wasn't done a lot earlier, along with JFKKIN. It should do well, as long as B6 doesn't hop on the bandwagon.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8978 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):

No need for any European connections. I would estimate that ~95% of passengers on this flight will be of Haitian descent headed to/from NYC itself.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 5):
To offer European connections, an overnight at PAP would likely be necessary. Not even AA is willing to risk that, and they've been in the market for years.

 checkmark  Haiti is highly unsafe and certainly not a place to overnight any aircraft. From 2004-2006 the airport failed to meet basic ICAO safety standards < http://www.scribd.com/doc/2807125/No...y-and-transiting-passengers-safety >. If I'm not mistaken, all flights to and from PAP are operated in broad daylight as turns, and flight crew don't even leave the aircraft. Given that all flights are regional in nature, this is not a problem.

Quoting Loftypraise (Reply 6):

There isn't much business to compete for. Nobody is headed to Haiti on vacation, and most Haitians are too poor to afford basic necessities, much less airline tickets.

Quoting CokePopper (Reply 7):

A flight to ATL would never work. The only Haitian communities that could support direct flights to their notoriously impoverished home country are in South Florida (home to the infamous Little Haiti) - already well served by AA and AF from MIA and Spirit from FLL, New York - served by AA and now DL, Boston - IIRC AA briefly flew this route a few years ago, and Montreal - served by Air Canada. Beyond that, the only other flights to Haiti would be Air France (continuing from MIA on to PTP, then FDF, and finally CAY) and the Copa flights to PTY.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32194 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8951 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
e only Haitian communities that could support direct flights to their notoriously impoverished home country are in South Florida (home to the infamous Little Haiti) - already well served by AA and AF from MIA and Spirit from FLL

South Florida-Haiti is notoriously under-served, as is JFK-Haiti, but airlines are just fine with that. It keeps fares notoriously high. Luckily for AA/AF, Spirit has not found it easy to steal customers away with their ala carte pricing that goes over poorly with Haitian customers.

Also, AA flies FLL-PAP along with Spirit. FLL-PAP is supposedly one of AA's best performing Caribbean routes.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
Boston - IIRC AA briefly flew this route a few years ago

They did, fluxing between 1-3w flights. Never a star performer.



a.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8862 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
I'm surprised this wasn't done a lot earlier, along with JFKKIN. It should do well, as long as B6 doesn't hop on the bandwagon.

I think B6 will stick with MBJ. However, since Air Jamaica is currently the only carrier operating between KIN and JFK, DL will have no problem entering the KIN market. Especially since its a heavy VFR route.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
FLL-PAP is supposedly one of AA's best performing Caribbean routes.

That wouldn't surprise me one bit, as the FLL-PAP-FLL route is now operated with a B738. Once again, kudos to AA for cutting capacity and increasing yields on yet another Caribbean route.


User currently offlineSKYYBLUE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8703 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
I'm surprised this wasn't done a lot earlier, along with JFKKIN. It should do well, as long as B6 doesn't hop on the bandwagon.

I'm surprised that jetBlue hasn't jumped on this sooner. There was rumor that JFK-PAP was being looked at. I'm sure they could sustain a daily A320 day-turn on the route to compete with AA.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
South Florida-Haiti is notoriously under-served, as is JFK-Haiti, but airlines are just fine with that. It keeps fares notoriously high. Luckily for AA/AF, Spirit has not found it easy to steal customers away with their ala carte pricing that goes over poorly with Haitian customers.

Once again, very shocked that jetBlue did not jump on this sooner. I think they are missing out BIG TIME with this route. MAH, do you think B6 could steal market share on FLL/MCO-PAP?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12):
I think B6 will stick with MBJ. However, since Air Jamaica is currently the only carrier operating between KIN and JFK, DL will have no problem entering the KIN market. Especially since its a heavy VFR route.

When Neeleman was around, he loved the idea of MBJ, but wasn't so fond of KIN... My personal opinion is that KIN would do very well... seeing that VFR routes from JFK seem to do very well for B6.

Any way. Congrats to DL, for being SMART and recognizing and jumping on, what is sure to be a profitable route from JFK!

[Edited 2009-02-09 22:12:16]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32194 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8689 times:



Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 13):
MAH, do you think B6 could steal market share on FLL/MCO-PAP?

FLL-PAP, yes. MCO-PAP is too small a market to support non-stop service.



a.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8652 times:
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Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 13):
Any way. Congrats to DL, for being SMART and recognizing and jumping on, what is sure to be a profitable route from JFK!

DL has been able to succeed on certain VFR routes out of JFK, e.g. JFK-GEO and JFK-POS. DL recently announced that ATL-KIN will operate daily. Since Air Jamaica is in a rather precarious situation, DL should and will probably launch a JFK-KIN service.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
FLL-PAP, yes. MCO-PAP is too small a market to support non-stop service.

In my opinion, AA, B6 and NK can all co-exsist on the FLL-PAP route. I just really hope that AA remains committed to FLL since many customers use their services at FLL as an alternative to MIA.


User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1440 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8551 times:

Yes, corporate security was down in PAP about 6 months ago making sure everything was ok.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7330 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
No need for any European connections. I would estimate that ~95% of passengers on this flight will be of Haitian descent headed to/from NYC itself.

 checkmark Outside of France, there's hardly any market to serve. That's why AA (and now DL) is content to let AF handle what market there is.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7239 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
That's why AA (and now DL) is content to let AF handle what market there is.

AF has been flying the route for decades and it is utilized mostly by diplomats and the wealthy. Also, the main purpose of the AF flight is to provide a reliable link between the U.S. and the French West Indies.


User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1360 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6588 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
AF has been flying the route for decades and it is utilized mostly by diplomats and the wealthy.

Indeed. I am hopeful that Delta will do well on this route. The Haitian diaspora in New York is so huge that there is room for growth. I am surprised that jetBlue doesn't serve this market from JFK (Brooklyn and Queens have the most Hatians outside of South Florida) but then again, B6 seems to concentrate more on leisure travel than "gotta go back home to the old country" travel.

BTW loftypraise, that link is incredibly cool. Hadn't seen it before. Now a new tool to avoid working!



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2179 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6315 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
AF already flies to PAP on their own metal from Miami and Pointe Pitre. IIRC, AF will soon be celebrating 30 years of service on MIA-PAP.

This flight has been around longer than 30 years.

The Summer 1973 issue of Airliners International had an article about someone who spent ten days on airplanes in the US, Canada, and the Caribbean, trying to log as many unusual aircraft as he could. One of the flights he took was AF PAP-MIA, on a Caravelle.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6109 times:
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Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 20):
The Summer 1973 issue of Airliners International had an article about someone who spent ten days on airplanes in the US, Canada, and the Caribbean, trying to log as many unusual aircraft as he could. One of the flights he took was AF PAP-MIA, on a Caravelle.

That is quite possible because in 1950, the bilateral agreement between the United States and France has been amended to permit French aircraft to land at Miami, and American machines to call at Nice. Miami will be added to Air France routes to Martinique, via Guadaloupe, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic and Haiti. P.A.A. will probably operate through Nice on the
North Atlantic route to the Middle East, via Spain and Italy.


User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7387 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5790 times:



Quoting OOer (Reply 16):
Yes, corporate security was down in PAP about 6 months ago making sure everything was ok.

I hope DL knows what they're getting into . I'm sure they will not RON any planes there,either. Wonder how long til they suspend service for another 'uprising' .



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5744 times:
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Quoting United_Fan (Reply 22):
I hope DL knows what they're getting into . I'm sure they will not RON any planes there,either. Wonder how long til they suspend service for another 'uprising' .

They do know what they are getting into. DL will do well on the route and will most likely not discontinue service to PAP.


User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7387 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4566 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
DL will do well on the route and will most likely not discontinue service to PAP.

I'm sure they will. It's just that Haiti is a high risk/reward destination , at least for US airlines.I know AA has temporarily stopped flying thee doing 'uprisings'.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
25 Panamair : Speaking of VFR routes, it looks like they have slowly been building both JFK-SDQ and JFK-STI back up since pulling them completely in September 2008
26 SCL767 : Not really, since the crews usually do not leave the a/c most of the time. That's how DL operates into certain markets. ATL-GYE will operate 3x weekl
27 Panamair : Yes, GEO will definitely be an increase this summer (it was 4x weekly last summer when the service started IIRC) - and doesn't BW have a one-stop bet
28 SCL767 : Yes, BW offers direct service from GEO to JFK via POS daily. Recently, BW increased frequency on the POS-JFK-POS route to 25 x weekly and plans on fl
29 AA767400 : There is room for DL on JFK-PAP. Those "poor" Haitians pay a good deal to fly to Haiti, and fares from NYC to Haiti are notoriously high. And let's n
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