FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7353 posts, RR: 58 Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3817 times:
The real facts are :
Nothing very new in this "sensational" announcement again by the media :
About 1000 jobs were already not replaced in 2008.
Between 1000 and 1200 will not be replaced in 2009, mostly ground staff in the airports due to the development of e-services.
Most airlines are doing the same at the moment. Note that AF declared that not a single AF employee will be fired (for economical reason).
The TGV effect is nothing new in France, and this subject was discussed over and over on A.Net several times, no wonder why the LCC are not in a hurry to compete with AF on the French domestic network from Paris.
ORY-LYS was the second busiest European and first European domestic route in 1980 ... today, ORY-LYS doesn't exist anymore. ORY-SB lost more than 900.000 passengers since the TGV, and the TGV travel time will be even more reduced in the coming years. This time it will not take 25 years before ORY-SXB, ORY-BOD and more are closed this is not a secret for anybody.
Quoting Afcdgptp (Thread starter): first AF A380 -MSN 033- first flight was on FEB the 12th at 09:56 GMT ; hopefully plane will still be delivered last quarter of this year
Why wouldn't it be delivered ? AFKL reported loss for the third quarter of 2008 but still expect a positive result for the fiscal year 2008/2009.
Considering the world financial crisis, many other airlines including some majors would love to be in the same financial situation of AFKL, even if the airline knew better times and results.
Yes. No more "external" hiring, including for cabin crew.
Cabin Crew recruitment will continue only in "internal" where some ground commercial staff concerned by the job cuts plan will be proposed to pass the tests to become F/A.
TGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 872 posts, RR: 21 Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3252 times:
Quoting Veeseeten (Reply 2): Doesn't AF have some sort of investment in SNCF? Or am I completely imaging this?
No AF investment in SNCF.
Before it was the other way around: SNCF HAD a share (25% if my memory is correct) in Air Inter, but this has disappeared with Air Inter.
AF has mentioned the possibility to operate its own high speed trains when the rail market is deregulated in 2010.
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 4): I remember reading in the newsletter that they had something to do THALYS, its on the codeshare page
Thalys is owned by SNCF (62%), SNCB – Belgian Railways (28%) and DB - German Railways (10%).
But AF offer connections between Roissy and Brussels, buying seats on board regular TGV services operated by SNCF.
FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7353 posts, RR: 58 Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3022 times:
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 4): I remember reading in the newsletter that they had something to do THALYS, its on the codeshare page.
Quoting TGV (Reply 5): AF has mentioned the possibility to operate its own high speed trains when the rail market is deregulated in 2010.
Starting 2010, in theory on International lines ONLY.
AF will probably start its own High Speed trains around 2011 or 2012, most likely first on CDG-BRU-AMS and then on a small network, as the Railway Station at CDG has a limited capacity.
On the French domestic market, this is another story ... the SNCF, in the name of the "public service" enjoys a total monopoly until 2017 minimum and receives around 20 Billions Euros per year of public subsidies ... so considering the Political aspect of the subject and the power of the SNCF unions, I think we will be all dead here before we can see any other operator of a High Speed train on the French domestic market (AF or anyone else).
TGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 872 posts, RR: 21 Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2653 times:
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6): O ... the SNCF, in the name of the "public service"... receives around 20 Billions Euros per year of public subsidies ...
No, this is not the case.
Let me detail here the real values (a little off-topic, but this is recurrent question when speaking of airlines in France, such as the reasons for the failure of most LCC here).
First to put in perspective your figure, the total turnover of the SNCF group in 2007 was 23.6 billions euros (all figures are issued from the official 2007 annual report of SNCF which can be downloaded on the SNCF website).
Since the implantation of the EU directives with the splitting of the Railways Infrastructure Manager on the one hand (Réseau Ferré de France – RFF) and the operators on the other (for now SNCF is the only operator for Passenger traffic as you mentioned, but not any more for freight) a lot of the public subsidies go in fact to RFF, to help maintaining the rail network (equivalent to what happen with the road network), and not to SNCF.
But RFF network can be used by other operators than SNCF (now freight operators only such as Railion, Veolia Euro cargo Rail, Seco Rail or Europorte, in the future by passenger operators, the calendar has been defined by the European Parliament, not by the French government).
The public money received by SNCF is there for 3 main reasons:
1) Regional traffic: since the transfer to Regional authorities of the responsibility of regional traffic (train and busses), each region is free to decide what level of service it wants to propose.
There is here a notion of “Public service" as Regions want to keep rail services on some lines that do not have a level of traffic sufficient to have a purely economical justification or where the revenue from the tickets is too low to cover the costs.
An example of the latter is the Ile De France region (in this case not only SNCF receives money, RATP, the Metro Authority and other bus companies receive also important payments). Fares are kept far lower than what they should be to cover the costs (these costs stem in particular from the unbalanced traffic with high peaks, which obliges to have a large quantity of rolling stock and staff during peak periods that are not so well utilized the rest of the time).
This is a political decision taking into account that, due to the prices of housing in and near Paris, a lot of people have to live far, but don’t have the money to pay for the real transportation cost. Note that a part of the cost is in fact paid by the companies through the “1% Transport”. And try to imagine the political consequences of having the fares multiplied by 3 overnight -this is more or less what would be needed...
In 2007 public subsidies for this were 3.5 billions (including 1 billion for investment in new rolling stock) paid by the Regions.
2) Social fares (such as reduction for families or army staff): these subsidies compensate the reduction decided by the State (but are not a complete reimbursement: the calculation takes into account the fact that, due to the reduction, more people have travelled, so SNCF does not gain anything on this). The total of public subsidies for this (paid by the state) was 0.25 billion in 2007.
3) A participation in retirement costs (1.4 billion in 2007) which acknowledges that the number of retired staff is far higher than the number of active staff (in the fifties there were around 500 000 employees, now 160 000). In effect the pensions scheme for railways is separate from the general pension scheme: it was created far before the generalisation of pensions to everybody (in 1909 when the general pension scheme was created in 1945), due to the fact that the (private at the time) rail companies wanted to keep the staff working for them, as the skills required were particular. This was to offset the fact that salaries were better in other fields. Due to this imbalance between retired and active staff the retirement system is in deficit. But would the railway staff be in the general scheme this would not appear.
The total of the above is around 5.1 billions, not 20 (and one could argue that the 1.4 billion for the pension scheme is not money going to the SNCF, as it serves to pay retired staff – and would be paid similarly (but not seen) if the staff was in the general pension scheme).
Note that the long distance passenger activity (which is the one competing against airlines, not the regional traffic) does not receive subsidies and earns money (turnover 6.9 billion, operating margin 891 millions euros). If AF is planning to come in this business it is not by chance !
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)