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Interest Increases In Boeing's Super Cruiser.  
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4445 posts, RR: 5
Posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Obviously the airlines are interested in Boeing's new "Super Cruiser". Just to keep everyone informed, so far JAL, SIA and CX have stated publicly that they support the aircraft and are VERY interested in it. United and American have also stated without a public announcement that they are interested in the aircraft.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

Could you post links to the public announcements? Thanks.

User currently offlineCruising From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Cathay interested in faster Boeing jet

Reuters 04/02/01

HONG KONG, April 2 (Reuters) - Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd on Monday
expressed interest in Boeing Co's (NYSE:BA - news) plans for a radical
high-speed airliner, adding to a number of airlines intrigued by the Sonic
Cruiser's promise of faster long-haul travel.

``Boeing has talked to us on this plane, and we could be interested,'' said
Cathay Pacific spokeswoman Rosita Ng.

``Of course we welcome any developments from our two suppliers that
would enhance the convenience and travelling comfort of our passengers
and cargo customers,'' she added.

She said the proposed delta-winged jetliner's speed, which Boeing claims
could chop three hours off a flight from the U.S. West Coast to Asia, would
be one of its major attractions.

Boeing on Thursday announced it would shelve plans for a larger version
of its 747 jetliner while focusing on development of the Sonic Cruiser, a
twin-engined jet purported to travel at speeds up to Mach .95, or 10-20
percent faster than current passenger aircraft.

Boeing's decision apparently cedes the market for the very largest aircraft
to rival Airbus Industrie , which has 66 orders for its planned
double-decker A380 plane, which would seat about 555 in a standard
configuration.

Cathay Pacific's biggest rival Asian carrier, Singapore Airlines , has
ordered the A380 and has also expressed interest in the Sonic Cruiser,
which would be much smaller, at about 175-250 seats.

But Cathay has held off on making a decision about the A380. Ng said the
airline is still in talks with Airbus, adding, ``we haven't made up our minds
yet.''

Among wide-body planes, Cathay currently has both Boeing 747-400
models and Airbus A340 and A330 models in its fleet.

As for the Sonic Cruiser, Ng said, ``We need to review it, I'm sure that
talks would be ongoing.''

United Airlines parent UAL Corp (NYSE:UAL - news) and Air Canada
(Toronto:AC.TO - news) on Friday said they were interested in the
proposed Boeing design.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7928 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

What I find very interesting about the article is that the airlines that have expressed interest in the Sonic Cruiser are all airlines that have to fly very long routes (e.g., USA to eastern Asia, eastern Asia to western Europe, etc.). Shaving 180 minutes off flight times suddenly becomes very attractive, especially for premium passengers who have to fly international long distance travel.

(I sometimes wonder if Sonic Cruiser becomes reality will one William Henry Gates III buy one as a private jet?  Smile )


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

Another good article coming up with lovely bold text

Meanwhi;le, I think it's good that SIA are having a great interest. However, I wish they could stop saying "at the right price". Just seems so cold!

WRAPUP 1-Airline chiefs interested in new Boeing jet
By Bradley Perrett, European aerospace & defence correspondent


LONDON, March 30 (Reuters) - Leading airlines backed a Boeing Co plan to build a radical high-speed airliner on Friday but said there was also room for Airbus Industrie's A380 superjumbo.

"We are excited that Boeing has taken on this challenge," James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of UAL Corp , which owns United Airlines.

Investors in Airbus majority shareholder EADS

were unfazed, driving the company's shares 2.79 percent higher to 21.10 euros on Boeing's Thursday announcement that, while focusing on the new fast airliner, it would shelve the 747X, a touted rival to the giant A380.

"The Boeing decision to abandon the 747X only reinforces our belief that we can sell 750 A380 planes between now and 2019," Philippe Camus, one EADS's two chief executives, told Reuters in an interview.

But analysts pounced on the prospect of Boeing's fast plane fleecing the A380 of its business class, despite Airbus proposing that the superjumbo would have spacious facilities.

"The business passenger will be given a choice of flying in a very large aircraft with amenities or getting to the destination hours quicker," said Tim Coombs, managing director at consultancy Aviation Economics.

"If you are a carrier like British Airways , catering to the high-margin customer, this Boeing product will look quite attractive."

Goodwin said: "We believe there is a market for both."


FASTER AND HIGHER -- BUT ONLY A PROPOSAL

While the abandonment of the 747X is a major retreat by Boeing that leaves the A380 with a monopoly, the eye-catching new plane, the Sonic Cruiser, is still only a vaguely defined proposal.

Boeing has not yet even determined its size.

Throwing away the standard airliner configuration that Boeing itself developed after World War II, the Sonic Cruiser would have a strange aft-mounted wing: a triangle with extensions sticking straight out.

This "cranked delta" configuration has previously been seen on fighters, such as the Saab Draken of the 1950s, but the Sonic Cruiser would also have little forward wings (canards).

(Boeing illustrates the plane at http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/concept/photo.html.)

It would fly at 95 percent of the speed of sound (mach .95), which is about 15 percent faster than conventional commercial planes but still less than half as fast as the Concorde.

Flying above conventional jets, the Sonic Cruiser would also encounter little traffic congestion.

British Airways Plc seems a prime candidate for the plane. The big UK carrier strongly emphasises business-class passengers and, as an enthusiastic Concorde operator, would have little hesitation in adopting an unconventional aircraft.

SINGAPORE AIRLINES (Singapore: SIAL.SI - news) INTERESTED

The Sonic Cruiser has attracted the attention of A380 buyer Singapore Airlines Ltd , one of the world's most influential carriers.

"We do have an interest," said the airline's Chief Executive, Cheong Choong Kong. "In fact, we have seen what Boeing announced before the announcement."

"We told them: 'Let's talk about it further'."

A mach .95 aircraft could slice two hours off the 13-hour trans-eurasian flights that account for much of Singapore Airlines' business.


Moreover, Boeing reckons the aircraft could have a range of 16,700 km (9,000 nautical miles), raising the prospect of direct flights from Southeast Asia to the United States and maybe even London to Australia, a route that currently requires a refueling stop.

"Air Canada would definitely line up in the extremely interested prospective customer category," said the airline's chief executive Robert Milton.

EADS's Camus played down the advantage of mach .95.

"With the Concorde, the difference in speed was significant but with the Boeing plane the gain is negligible and could be eaten up by delays," he said.

Airbus's other shareholder, British defence contractor BAE Systems Plc said the Boeing decision was no surprise.

"A number of us have looked at it," chairman Richard Evans said. "We've looked at it. Boeing have looked at it."

-- With additional reporting by Noah Barkin in Paris and Sean Kennedy in Hong Kong.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineNotarzt From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Ray,

The long-haul operations are the ONLY valuable market for the "Sonic Cruiser" design. I don't think any airline cares for the one hour 'SkySaver' (Copyright: Capitol Airlines) on the trans-Atlantic routes. The Asian market might bring the decision for the new Boeing project.

Daniel


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Like I said in another thread, this proposed plane can be of interest to virtually every airline in the world that currently uses aircraft of 767s and larger, and hundreds of different routes. I think it will be a great and profitable success, on one condition: that Boeing manages to build this plane with the same or better seat/mile costs as the current 777/A330/A340 classes.

Charles


User currently offlineNotarzt From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Folks...

By the way, despite all the pessimistic nay-sayers... I do not believe that Airbus will sell 750+ examples of the A380 in 20 years. What do you think? I'd say the half might be possible.

Daniel


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2038 times:

Daniel,

I tend to agree with you.

Charles.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16690 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

The Sonic Cruiser with it's range and speed will make the A380 mostly a cargo and very high volume aircraft.

All those ads touting hotel like comfort to business travelers is BS,it's going to be seats,seats and more seats.

If the business traveler wants comfort,get them to their hotel or back home quicker.

Airbus is saying the A380 will be like a luxury cruise,well just how many people cruise for buiseness today. Barely anyone travels from one point to another on a slow ship.

All those luxury liners that brought travelers across the Oceans were replaced by the 707.

The Sonic cruiser will do the same to any dreams Airbus had of luxury crusies in their A380s with high paying business travelers.

Most likely the future for the A380 is in cargo or high volume low yield flights full of discounted travelers to and from Asia to vacation destinations.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRepublic From Canada, joined Dec 2012, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

As one aviation analyst so eloquently stated, "one will haul high yield business passengers, the other will haul backpackers". Any guesses which is which?

Rgds,
Joe


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2703 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Interesting quote from a Bloomberg article dealing with the 20XX:

**Seating 175 to 250 passengers, the new plane is intended to cut travel time on a flight from the U.S. west coast to Europe by three hours. "What does a customer care how large the aircraft is if they can knock three hours off a trans-Pacific flight?'' said Robert Milton, chief executive of Air Canada Corp.**

Hamlet69




Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineSJC>SFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

I think that the new Boeing plane will be AT LEAST as successful as the A380, as I believe it will take over many US west coast- Europe routes (3 hours is a HUGE chunk of time) and US-Asia routes. HOWEVER the biggest question left, is as was stated earlier, can boeing keep the seat mile costs down?

User currently offlineDatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Funny work and funny going. For Boeing to get much success with this it must proceed development fast as 777, so it's no more than 3 years later than 380, when Airbus can follow.

Somehow, 380 and Super cruiser are not competitor each other. Boeing for 340 (especially -500) and Airbus for 747.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

DatamanA340,

You are right - the 20XX is not meant to go after the same segment as the A380, which was what impressed me about the decision. The A380 was meant to earn Airbus the title of builder of the world's biggest passenger jet - a source of pride for Boeing for 30 years, and Airbus hopes to have for the next 30 years. By backing off, Boeing shows that 1) It's management stands by what they predicted concerning trends, and 2) that they are more concerned about building planes that people need, and with which they can make money, rather than making prestige statements.

Reitterating, I think the 20XX will be a roaring success IF they can maintain the seat/mile costs to competitive levels.

Charles


User currently offline#-B777-# From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

I think boeing wouldn't offer such a plane if they can not give a seat mile cost guarantee. And Boeing's Phantom Works have 4000 of the best aviation engineers! This plane will be a great success! And the Airbus managers will fly around the world with the A380 whining: "But we, and only we build the biggest airplane in the world"

User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10358 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Boeing will have a lot to do until they might be able to beat physical laws. Fuel consumption will be higher than on more conventional aircraft, even Boeing says that. Most likely the fuel consumption will will be considerably higher in percentage than the percentage of time saving (15%).

It´s pretty sure that flying this jet will be more expensive. Most people will not accept that. So do I. I would prefer the more spacious A380. Nothing can beat the sheer existence of space. Even if you actually don´t have more space per seat in a 747 than in a 757 - the feeling is you have more. More comfort is better than a slight increase in speed - and the time-saving of the Boeing project is far less than impressive. 15%, ha!

But that some airlines expressed their interest already is not surprising - this dramatic looking aircraft seems to be a fine tool for stressed business class passengers, the best-paying passengers beside the very limited first-class-elite.That makes it mainly the competitor to Boeings own products, to B767s and 777s rather than to mass transports like the A380/B747.

But this project will not change one thing - reality: In future the major airports will have to have far more VLA-traffic, because there are not enough slots for half-size-birds like the Sonic cruiser. And in the end the vast majority will choose their airline/airplane after who´s making the best price. Hard to believe this will be the Boeing-wannabee-Concorde. For sure fuel prices will be considerably higher when this project might fly (maybe it will never fly) by the end of this decade so even worsening the chances of a faster, more expensive-to-operate plane.

See you on the A380 and the 744!


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10358 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

One thing to add:

I wish both, the A380 and the Boeing Sonic Cruiser a lot of success, even if the Airbus makes more sense for me and I think its more of the real world as it will be. The Boeing looks a lot more moderneristic, but not more modern.

At least the Boeing is nice looking.


User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

One thing that hasn't been mentioned
but will become an issue
is radiation.
Flying higher, especially over polar regions,
increases expsoure. This is already an issue with Concorde flight crews, which although flying higher, have fewer hours by almost 1/2 than the sonic cruiser will, and make up only a small proportion of BA and AF rosters.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineGyro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

I'm not much of an engineer or anything, but Airbus has until 2006 to make the A380 go faster... If they could increase cruising speed by 50-75kts, the "yellowstone" will have lost most of it's appeal right?


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1854 times:

You'd be in real aerodynamic trouble if you did that.....

User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1849 times:

2006-7 is outrageously optomistic.
Be lucky to see it in service when 2010 floats by.
In either case the `concept' will certainly be scaled back or modified, either to save time, or money, or both.
Hard to think of any airliner project that wasn't `de-radicalized' from start to finish.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineGyro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1844 times:

"Introduced in 1959, the 720 (originally designated 707-020) retained the same basic structure as the 707-120, but was 2.54m (8ft 4in) shorter, which reduced seating to 112 in a typical two class arrangement. Other changes were made to the wing which introduced full span leading edge flaps, while a glove between the inner engines and the fuselage increased wing sweep and wing area and decreased the wing's thickness/chord ratio. The changes to the wing made it more aerodynamically efficient, permitting higher cruising speeds and lowered minimum speeds (which aided field performance)."

If it was possible in 1959 with the 707 and the 720, it should be possible today... Let me know!!!

Regards: Sven



User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1842 times:

Gyro,

A faster A380 will not make it any easier to fill up, which will be the central problem for any airline that buys it. The 20XX is sized right in the middle of the capacity curve. In this capacity segment, there are (including deliveries expected very soon=

about 370 A330/A340s
250 A310s
350 777s
850 767s
1000 757s
500 DC-10 / MD-11

That is over 3000 aircraft in the 200-300 seat category that will likely need replacing over the next 20 years. If the 20XX captures just a third of that number, plus the industry growth, it should be quite successful.

Voodoo,

You may be right about 2006 being very agressive. Then again, maybe Boeing is further along in development than they admit.

Charles


User currently offlineCms151515 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but I am quite sure, if not positive, that we will never actually see this plane in the skies. In the past two decades Boeing has tried several times to make a faster airplane. They have built I believe two different models for two different airplanes, one being a large supersonic liner. Both these programs crashed. So will this one. If by some small chance this project does meet environmental requirements and in the end building begins, we will not see it in the air for over ten years. We are not talking about a conventional airliner here; produtction can and will not be very rapid. There will be many issues to deal with along the way. My best guess is that boeing had a few people sketch out a futuristic plane and then they released it to the press with some stats along with it. Lets get real though, the end product, if it ever does materialize, will look nothing like what you see on the Boeing website. For now it is a tactical manuever, which will likely never become reality. C

25 Singapore_Air : I think this is a very serious project and I agree, Airbus won't sell more than 800 of the fatty A380s as it is too big for most routes. I predict big
26 CV640 : I am amazed that Boeing would go for such a radical design. But, remember it was Boeing that designed the modern jet aircraft and has been responsible
27 GOT : Many airlines seems to be interested in the aircraft now, but will we ever see the aircraft in the air? And if so, will it be with these airlines? I m
28 Na : Hi Singapore_Air, Why did you mention the A340 but forgot the 777 in your list? The Sonic cruiser is - if it will miraculously be some kind of economi
29 Post contains images Pilot1113 : I think the main problem here, in thinking about Boeing's "Sonic Cruiser," is that you folks are still thinking 1970s era technology (ie: the Concorde
30 Eugdog : Boeing have recognized that you must not compete against your competitors strength. Instead you must compete in area where the competition is weak. Ot
31 RIX : First: the new Boeing product will of cause raise more interest from Boeing-customers than from Airbus-clients. There is no such thing as "Boeing-cust
32 VASI : Did they copy that from the Lockheed Skunk works (SR-71A?) Boeing has to become much more competitive in it's present product range. It's not enough
33 UA777 : An Airbus competitor in 3 to 4 years? Boeing doesn't have the resources to develop both the Sonic Cruiser and the 747X so where would Airbus find the
34 Singapore_Air : Na: Thank you. I didn't include the 777 becuase I didn't know the range and I suppose the passenger capacity of this new plane would only be 250 - 275
35 Voodoo : It is interesting to look back and see criticism of Airbus as a non-Company reporting to no shareholders in the past. Yet we now have Boeing supporter
36 Singa_air_rulz : I saw a pic of it! COOL!
37 CX747 : American CEO Endorses Boeing's Sonic Cruiser Concept By Jim Proulx/DALLAS 04-Apr-2001 12:05 PM U.S. EDT American Airlines CEO Donald Carty strongly en
38 Bfarrell : can someone here create a new post with the link to the boeing site?? I am really interested in seeing what this will look like. I hope to see you all
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