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Delta Applies For Second Daily ATL-GIG  
User currently offlineSLCPDXATL From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 62 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

AJC.com is reporting that Delta has applied to the DOT for a second daily Rio de Janeiro flight from Atlanta, to begin Dec. 18

Congratulate me on my first post  Wink

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8142 times:

Congratulations. Is this application for seasonal frequencies or within the framework of the additional frequencies in GIG under the bilateral Brazil-US (also disputed by AA, CO and US)?

Tks,


User currently offlineKinglobjaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8134 times:

Looks like a certain widget on the tail carrier feels threatened by those who fly the flag. US from CLT will really sting DL.


-Kinglobjaw



Kinglobjaw
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7688 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8064 times:

First off, Welcome to A.net!

DL has applied for a second daily from ATL-GIG, but I dont think theyll get it. CO has also applied for IAH-GIG (which would be a new service from a much larger O&D city pair), US has applied for CLT-GIG (which is new service and a new carrier), and AA has applied for JFK-GIG.

I think CO and US will walk away with the frequencies.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8047 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 1):
Congratulations. Is this application for seasonal frequencies or within the framework of the additional frequencies in GIG under the bilateral Brazil-US (also disputed by AA, CO and US)?

This is an application for the 14 new frequencies under the new US-Brazil bilateral. Competing against DL's ATL-GIG application are:

CO Daily IAH-GIG-IAH
US Daily CLT-GIG-CLT
AA 3 wkly JFK-GIG-JFK


An update on the proceedings:

Original applications were due at the end of January and just this week, all 4 airlines turned in answers to the response for evidence request.

In DLs response to evidence request, they stated that they would be willing to accept a minimum of 3 weekly frequencies for ATL-GIG. Still, I believe that DLs application is the LEAST deserving of all applicants. No where in their application do they mention that they already fly ATL-GIG daily nor do they mention that they intend to use these frequencies to fly a 2nd daily ATL-GIG. What we likely have is an attempt by DL to win these frequencies, allowing them to manipulate the use of their already held unrestricted frequencies to add additional GRU service, which is not the point of this proceeding.


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1689 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8045 times:



Quoting SLCPDXATL (Thread starter):
AJC.com is reporting that Delta has applied to the DOT for a second daily Rio de Janeiro flight from Atlanta, to begin Dec. 18

Welcome to a.net!

My memory is a bit fuzzy, but, as I recall, DL operates its current ATL-GIG flights with unrestricted frequencies it was awarded in the past. I believe speculation has been that they are attempting to gain these restricted ATL-GIG flights so that they can maintain service there while relocating the current unrestricted frequencies to additional ATL-GRU flying. Someone please correct me if that is off-base.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8005 times:



Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 4):
This is an application for the 14 new frequencies under the new US-Brazil bilateral. Competing against DL's ATL-GIG application are:

CO Daily IAH-GIG-IAH
US Daily CLT-GIG-CLT
AA 3 wkly JFK-GIG-JFK



Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 4):
DLs response to evidence request, they stated that they would be willing to accept a minimum of 3 weekly frequencies for ATL-GIG

Thanks for the information and detail.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33041 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7849 times:

Delta has not applied for a second daily ATL-GIG.

What they have applied for is ATL-GIG so that they can move the current ATL-GIG frequencies to U.S.-GRU.



a.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5306 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7703 times:



Quoting Kinglobjaw (Reply 2):
Looks like a certain widget on the tail carrier feels threatened by those who fly the flag. US from CLT will really sting DL.

Uh not so much. The bigger threat to DL will be CO's new service not US.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 4):
What we likely have is an attempt by DL to win these frequencies, allowing them to manipulate the use of their already held unrestricted frequencies to add additional GRU service, which is not the point of this proceeding.

So what? There's nothing illegal or unethical about that.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33041 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7661 times:



Quoting Kinglobjaw (Reply 2):
US from CLT will really sting DL.

No it won't. I'd be shocked if that joke of a route last more than 18 months.



a.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5306 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7614 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
No it won't. I'd be shocked if that joke of a route last more than 18 months.

 checkmark   checkmark  While many here have spoken about the potential for Star Alliance connections etc., the fact remains that both PHL and CLT combined account for just 5 PDEW to GIG. Beyond that, there is also the issue of the route being costlier to operate as it requires 2 dedicated aircraft with one sitting all day at GIG before returning to CLT. US will definitely have an uphill battle ahead of them.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33041 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7573 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):

checkmark checkmark While many here have spoken about the potential for Star Alliance connections etc., the fact remains that both PHL and CLT combined account for just 5 PDEW to GIG. Beyond that, there is also the issue of the route being costlier to operate as it requires 2 dedicated aircraft with one sitting all day at GIG before returning to CLT. US will definitely have an uphill battle ahead of them.

The real problem is their lack of any pressence in the region. One does not start South America with Rio de Janeiro. You start with Bogota or Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo and build-up from there.

Same with Asia - one doesn't start with Beijing, and at the rate things are going (i.e.: still no aircraft acqusitions, collpasing China travel demand and the extreme likelihood that U.S. and China will become Open Skies in 2012-13), US Airways won't be starting wtih Beijing either.



a.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7566 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
Beyond that, there is also the issue of the route being costlier to operate as it requires 2 dedicated aircraft with one sitting all day at GIG before returning to CLT.

The route has problems (MAH has done a commendable job of detailing them above), but this isn't one of them. The 762s won't be needed elsewhere once 332s begin arriving. Why not use them on low utilization routes?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7550 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
While many here have spoken about the potential for Star Alliance connections etc., the fact remains that both PHL and CLT combined account for just 5 PDEW to GIG. Beyond that, there is also the issue of the route being costlier to operate as it requires 2 dedicated aircraft with one sitting all day at GIG before returning to CLT. US will definitely have an uphill battle ahead of them.

Well its like most of DL's Intl flights out of ATL and oddly they are still around for now at least.  Smile


User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7543 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
No it won't. I'd be shocked if that joke of a route last more than 18 months.

While many here have spoken about the potential for Star Alliance connections etc., the fact remains that both PHL and CLT combined account for just 5 PDEW to GIG. Beyond that, there is also the issue of the route being costlier to operate as it requires 2 dedicated aircraft with one sitting all day at GIG before returning to CLT. US will definitely have an uphill battle ahead of them.

One really has to think, what does US want to achieve with this route. They do not have many w/b planes in their fleet to just dump 2 of them on any route which is on the market. They usually (with the exception of PHL-China) don't start longhaul routes with high risk. I cannot think of too many of their European ventures, that they cancelled. So I guess some network planner must have made calcualtions coming to the conclusion that the route is viable. I do not think, that they just do not want DL to get the route and therefore applied. Maybe US takes a longterm approach here, takes the risk of losing money for 2 years, but bets on a) economic recovery, b) visa free travel between US and Brazil, c) stronger USD vs. BRL, d) a first step into the Brazilian market and finally if they can get enough feed from JJ in GIG and their own network in CLT, they may have a chance. At the end if I fly PIT-CLT-GIG-POA or PIT-ATL-GRU-POA does not really make a difference



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4030 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7533 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
So what? There's nothing illegal or unethical about that.

But if that is the intent and the DoT will judge what applications to select, why wouldn't Delta disclose in its application what it will be doing? The frequencies are United States property. If Delta is going to do something that affects the public interest in a positive way, like starting a new GRU flight, it should disclose. So, yes, I think an application that is effectively incomplete like that is unethical.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7528 times:



Quoting LH506 (Reply 14):
Maybe US takes a longterm approach here, takes the risk of losing money for 2 years, but bets on a) economic recovery, b) visa free travel between US and Brazil, c) stronger USD vs. BRL, d) a first step into the Brazilian market and finally if they can get enough feed from JJ in GIG and their own network in CLT, they may have a chance. At the end if I fly PIT-CLT-GIG-POA or PIT-ATL-GRU-POA does not really make a difference

I think they really want to get in to South America somehow, and the open skies markets (Chile and Uruguay in particular) don't offer the opportunity they'd like. That means they take what they can get. I don't know that it's a sound strategy--LIM might be a better choice, as might waiting for more Argentina frequencies to become available-- but I do understand where they're coming from.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33041 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7523 times:

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 13):

Well its like most of DL's Intl flights out of ATL and oddly they are still around for now at least.

It's not Miami or New York, or even Orlando or Washington, but Atlanta has a respectably sized market to Brazil, Colombia, El Salvador, and Peru.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
I think they really want to get in to South America somehow, and the open skies markets (Chile and Uruguay in particular) don't offer the opportunity they'd like. That means they take what they can get. I don't know that it's a sound strategy--LIM might be a better choice, as might waiting for more Argentina frequencies to become available-- but I do understand where they're coming from.

I agree they are just trying to get into the market, but it's still a risky way to do it and they won't succeed, IMO.

There are Argentina frequencies available, and by next year there will be 46 free for U.S. carriers use.

United can't even run IAD-GIG year-round, and are even cutting the season short this year ending the flight prematurely this season. United has a much stronger pressence in the region and D.C. is a much larger market.

Personally I think AA and DL will soon apply with DOT to have United's IAD-GIG frequencies - which can be used to GRU - stripped unless they are used year-round.

[Edited 2009-02-19 14:52:01]


a.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7493 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
There are Argentina frequencies available, and by next year there will be 46 free for U.S. carriers use.

I wonder whether US is concerned about the range of the 762. Their 762s ought to be able to make EZE-CLT, but that's the only explanation I can think of-- unless they're banking on enough JJ support to make the flight work.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7468 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
I think they really want to get in to South America somehow, and the open skies markets (Chile and Uruguay in particular) don't offer the opportunity they'd like. That means they take what they can get. I don't know that it's a sound strategy--LIM might be a better choice, as might waiting for more Argentina frequencies to become available-- but I do understand where they're coming from.

I agree, that they want to get into SA. They applied unsuccessfully for CLT-BOG frequencies, which using an A319 was a low risk approach. For LIM they would need at least a 757, but then again coud use TA, who is getting close to *A for some connecting traffic to Chile, Argentine, Bolivia, Uruguay or Paraguay.



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7435 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
So what? There's nothing illegal or unethical about that.

I didn't say that it's illegal or unethical; in fact, it's a clever move by DL but the fact is that these new frequencies are meant to expand service from the US to GIG or the north/northeast part of Brazil, not to GRU...and the DOT won't be fooled by that.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
While many here have spoken about the potential for Star Alliance connections etc., the fact remains that both PHL and CLT combined account for just 5 PDEW to GIG

OK, fine. No one is suggesting that the route will survive on O&D. US can still serve 92% of the total US-GIG market via CLT, and with less circuitous connections than via ATL or IAH -- those are facts.

US has estimated a LF of 78% on the route, and that includes a cap on traffic from South Florida at no more than 1% of total estimated traffic (fairly reasonable IMO).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Same with Asia - one doesn't start with Beijing, and at the rate things are going (i.e.: still no aircraft acqusitions, collpasing China travel demand and the extreme likelihood that U.S. and China will become Open Skies in 2012-13), US Airways won't be starting wtih Beijing either.

PEK and GIG aren't exactly in the same boat though. Unlike GIG, US would have to acquire a new aircraft for PEK, adding to the initial costs of flying there. Like others have said, US is conservative with its international network planning (largely due to fleet restraints, if nothing else) and generally does their homework before starting a new city, so I'm cautiously optimistic that this route will do well.

As it relates to China though, I agree if push comes to shove and another carrier wants US' dormant frequency, that they won't put up too much of a fight. I doubt US will be in China much before the 2013/2014 timeframe.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
There are Argentina frequencies available, and by next year there will be 46 free for U.S. carriers use.

That is really pushing the range of the B762s; it would have to take weight penalties if they want to do it. Depending on the success of the GIG route, EZE may be on the radar for fall 2010 once they have more A332s available.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33041 posts, RR: 71
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7438 times:



Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 20):
OK, fine. No one is suggesting that the route will survive on O&D. US can still serve 92% of the total US-GIG market via CLT, and with less circuitous connections than via ATL or IAH -- those are facts.

I'm a little confused where you get that, when Miami and Orlando are two of the three largest markets and combine for well over 8%.



a.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3711 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7437 times:

In today's reply CO finally came out with the fact that the GIG-IAH market is 70% larger than the GRU-IAH market. They only showed the data in the last reply, so that no other carrier would use that information against them.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
One does not start South America with Rio de Janeiro. You start with Bogota or Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo and build-up from there.

Those are only your assumption and preconception talking.

[Edited 2009-02-19 17:15:09]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33041 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7436 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 22):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
One does not start South America with Rio de Janeiro. You start with Bogota or Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo and build-up from there.

Those are only your assumption and preconception talking.

Well though-out assumptions based on reality.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7262 times:



Quoting Kinglobjaw (Reply 2):
Looks like a certain widget on the tail carrier feels threatened by those who fly the flag. US from CLT will really sting DL.

hahahahaha oh yes Delta is scared s**tless of US.  Yeah sure DL wants the rights to GIG so the can add into GRU. Nothing more nothing less.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
I think CO and US will walk away with the frequencies.

more than likely. Its also like AA and DL will end up with getting them from US later on.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 4):
Still, I believe that DLs application is the LEAST deserving of all applicants. No where in their application do they mention that they already fly ATL-GIG daily nor do they mention that they intend to use these frequencies to fly a 2nd daily ATL-GIG.

Nope I'd say US shouldn't get jack. Just like they shouldn't have gotten PEK.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):

What they have applied for is ATL-GIG so that they can move the current ATL-GIG frequencies to U.S.-GRU

this is the real reason why. likely they want to make JFK-GRU daily (1) LAX-GRU daily (4) and add the rest to ATL-GRU. (2)

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
Uh not so much. The bigger threat to DL will be CO's new service not US.

this is true. IMHO DL will be just fine.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
No it won't. I'd be shocked if that joke of a route last more than 18 months.

i give it a year max.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Same with Asia - one doesn't start with Beijing, and at the rate things are going (i.e.: still no aircraft acqusitions, collpasing China travel demand and the extreme likelihood that U.S. and China will become Open Skies in 2012-13), US Airways won't be starting wtih Beijing either.

the saddest part of it all is THERE IS A STAR HUB AT NRT. PHL-NRT should be a home run.........but no they start with PEK.  Yeah sure

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 13):
Well its like most of DL's Intl flights out of ATL and oddly they are still around for now at least.

ATL has more O/D and also DL has a very large FF base in the (IIRC) top 3 markets which will back track a little just for the SkyMiles. (top-MIA,NYC and MCO)

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
It's not Miami or New York, or even Orlando or Washington, but Atlanta has a respectably sized market to Brazil, Colombia, El Salvador, and Peru.

and still gets feed from the large FF base in SF and MCO/TPA area.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 20):
US has estimated a LF of 78% on the route, and that includes a cap on traffic from South Florida at no more than 1% of total estimated traffic (fairly reasonable IMO).

with a 762?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
I'm a little confused where you get that, when Miami and Orlando are two of the three largest markets and combine for well over 8%.

These market even feed Delta flights.



yep.
25 Rafabozzolla : But, more importantly, Atlanta has ATL, which is a MUCH larger hub than CLT will ever be. Here the logic is the opposite: Washington has more O/D to
26 FutureUScapt : From the application filed with the DOT, though the 92% refers to the possibility to connect the traffic (not that connecting via CLT will necessaril
27 FutureUScapt : That's not the point of these proceedings. Time will tell, but I think the DOT will agree. So the DOT should hand it to one of the incumbents who alr
28 DLMD90 : Yeah, I don't think US is a threat to Delta these days, especially in this market!
29 DeltaL1011man : So they can open up more of the country to a LARGER market in Brazil. (GRU) I would hope that the DOT isn't so stupid that they don't know what Delta
30 B752OS : What are the largest O&D market between USA and Brazil. I think it's safe to assume Miami and NYC. But what are the other 3 or 4?
31 Cubsrule : I'm not so sure that's true-- especially if we compare the slightly more capable ex-GF 763ERs (which seem to show up on the EZE run a fair bit). US'
32 WorldTraveler : AA and DL's 763ERs are much more capable a/c than the 762s operated by US. still the 762 should make it. There is nothing in DL's application nor has
33 DeltaL1011man : IIRC its MIA NYC WAS MCO MAH will be able to tell you for sure. this is true but no way should they have less range than Delta's 763ER. Unless US has
34 Cubsrule : My sense is that Brazil would not have a leg to stand on. DL will use the GIG frequencies to GIG. As long as DL does that, it should be able to use i
35 C010T3 : In terms of bilateral agreement, Brazil wouldn't interfere. But it's very probable that only sub-optimal time slots would be allocated. Parking spots
36 FutureUScapt : The top 5, I believe are MIA, MCO, NYC, IAH, then LAX. Someone else may know for sure. I'm sure they do know what DL is up to, but like I said that i
37 DeltaL1011man : they should not be (if by capable you mean has more range) now DL's 763ER should be able to carry more PAX and more cargo but should not have more ra
38 OA412 : As others have said, the US 762's are very early build examples and are indeed limited in terms of range. PHL-ATH is pretty much the longest flight t
39 United1 : Actually I think UA would find a way to use those rights year round at that point, while UA probably doesn't have much interest in operating more the
40 DeltaL1011man : yes but that would (hate to say it) be a stupid move on UA's part. IF UA can't use all 3 sets year round then its more than likely better for them to
41 Ocracoke : Had US not entered into the picture, and had the frequencies neatly been divided between AA, CO, and DL, the DOT wouldn't have said anything. Or do y
42 MAH4546 : Very true, which is why I believe AA is making a huge mistake by not revising their application. They should change it for daily 75L service on MIA-B
43 Incitatus : There is an issue of intent. The frequencies were offered with one intent: Serve Brazil outside of GRU. If an airline plays a reallocation game Brazi
44 BA744PHX : Does anyone know when DOT will annouce the route authorities?
45 Cubsrule : That's a fair point. The problem is that Brazil needs/needed to do something about the unrestricted frequencies in order to further this intent. They
46 WorldTraveler : but some of the flights DL is operating such as LAX-GRU will or could operate with very different times than the traditional east coast-Brazil flight
47 C010T3 : I believe so too, but if it's in CO's plan to apply for EWR-GIG frequencies next year, they should think about securing a parking space now, otherwis
48 LAXdude1023 : Haha, with some of the decisions the DOT has made in the past, you have to think that the only qualification for that job is breathing! Seriously I t
49 United1 : Be carefull in assuming that double daily IAD-GRU or even daily year round IAD-GIG would loose money. UA does rather well on IAD/ORD-deep South Ameri
50 MAH4546 : Not at all. Its entire South America operation loses money and they have the worst margins of any of the four U.S. majors flying to South America. No
51 WorldTraveler : Every other carrier also points out that there are far easier markets in S. America and other points in Latin America which US could start but which
52 C010T3 : Rio is still an underserved market. That's the advantage US will have at GIG. US has a greater chance of success when competing with less competing f
53 LAXdude1023 : Thats news to me. Last I checked (recently) UA bleeds money on its South American operation.
54 United1 : According to what I've heard from people at UA they do fine on IAD/ORD-South America it's the Caribbean and parts of Mexico that loose money. Fair en
55 MAH4546 : GIG-USA is not in any way, shape or form underserved. From one daily AA flight in 2004, Rio now has 12w AA to MIA plus TAM daily to MIA; then throw i
56 WorldTraveler : to add to MAH's comments, remember that an aweful lot of GRU traffic is connecting. For the most part, GIG doesn't carry near as much connecting traf
57 MAH4546 : They don't. The routes bleed money, and the losses are getting heavier every year. They don't have enough mass in the market.
58 Ocracoke : Wow. Do people at USAirways do any type of research before typing this stuff? The Department has never followed a policy of excluding new entrants si
59 United1 : I have no idea if there is one or not regarding the AA case but that doesn't mean that there can't be one in the future even if its involving another
60 FutureUScapt : Of course not They would have likely gotten four frequencies, but only because no one else was standing in line to get any. With US applying though,
61 Ocracoke : Thanks, but that is what I said in my second paragraph, which for some reason, you choose not to quote.
62 MAH4546 : Except we all, as outsiders, have access to DOT data which shows the operations lose money as of the third quarter of 2008.
63 Sxf24 : If thats the case, UAL may want to correct the fraud its perpetrating in its financial filings with the FAA and SEC.
64 United1 : DOT data shouldn't be alone taken as an indication of whether a route is profitable or not. You know as well as I do that those numbers that are repo
65 Sxf24 : Well, the Mexican and Caribbean destinations must really, really, really suck if the rest of UAL's Latin American routes perform well. I guess that j
66 MAH4546 : I realize that, but a little common sense tells you that there is no way United's minute operations to Mexico and the Caribbean - even more minute in
67 United1 : And I stand by mine supported by information told to me and knowledge of how DOT filings are well.... filed. Shall we get back to the topic at hand?
68 Cubsrule : ...and LIM puzzles me. It's easily doable with a 752, so aircraft availability isn't the issue. What is?
69 FutureUScapt : Oh please, are you really going to go back to 1992 to find examples of when this may have been the "policy" or "norm?" But since you did, you will of
70 C010T3 : I'm sorry, but the joke is being told by yourself. It's a joke that there was no NYC-GIG flight until just recently. NYC is the largest market from G
71 MAH4546 : No, it's not. And your data just showed my point. No market requires 100% of it's demand to be on non-stop. Many markets often carry as little as 45%
72 LipeGIG : DL believes no one will complain about such strategy and that DOT will believe they will fly what do they ask for... if such procedure become real, i
73 C010T3 : I'm not saying that Rio's demand should be flown nonstop to the US, but, again, you're ignoring the fact that passengers do connect at GIG. You're al
74 C010T3 : Well, no carrier did, but the City of Houston and the Greater Houston Partnership came out strong against DL in its yesterday's reply: Since Delta ha
75 WorldTraveler : UA has been in a downward spiral in Latin America since they decided to no longer compete from MIA. ORD is just not a decent gateway for Latin Americ
76 Rafabozzolla : And what about Avianca, Aeromexico and Mexicana?
77 Cubsrule : I think, though, that that comes into play much less when US doesn't serve the market at all. If US wanted to go from 7 frequencies to 14 in a contes
78 FlyPNS1 : Agreed. Codeshares aren't a major factor and would only be considered if two applicants were on similar footing. But in the case of US vs. DL or US v
79 C010T3 : Those carriers would require double connections from GIG, just like LA would require one stop and one connection, which is not as desirable even for
80 WorldTraveler : I have never argued any differently. But the notion that US doesn't have access to GIG or GRU is not true. I would be surprised if US doesn't get som
81 FutureUScapt : NK stated that they intend to apply for the 2010 proceedings to fly FLL-MAO. Whether or not they will still be interested a year from now remains to
82 C010T3 : CO's ambitions in Brazil could well be restricted to serving GRU and GIG nonstop from their both intercontinental hubs. CO could very well apply with
83 Cubsrule : In a sense, it's untrue. But for the limited purpose of a DOT proceeding, it's true.
84 LipeGIG : AA got the rights from the past, acquiring assets at one time DL and others decided not to do it. We can't blame the history or complain about the ma
85 Ocracoke : Hey, don't jump on my case. It was US that wrote that. And I quote: " The Department has never followed a policy of excluding new entrants simply bec
86 Hardiwv : IAH is indeed a good hub as compared to UA ORD and IAD. IAH also has strong O&D especially with GIG. However, I do not see the point of EWR as a majo
87 Rafabozzolla : I know that, but on your post you said Brazil and not only GIG, and that's what I was talking about.
88 LipeGIG : Hardi, giving the size of NYC-GIG market, i do believe a daily EWR-GIG nowadays would be perfect. EWR has the power to attract market from NYC and ev
89 FlyPNS1 : US doesn't have access with their own metal. This proceeding is about acquiring access using your own metal. You know full well that a codeshare is n
90 Hardiwv : I am not so sure about the size of NYC-GIG given the fact that TAM is reluctant to turn the JFK-GIG daily and AA only applies for 3 weekly in this ma
91 C010T3 : But I was trying to make a point about the lack of alternatives beyond nonstop flights. GRU would only make sense to DFW, LAX, ORD, MCO and EWR. It's
92 C010T3 : Airlines' reluntancy in the GIG-NYC market exists only due the fact that it cannibalises the flights from GRU. JJ's GIG-JFK is a big hit against the
93 Hardiwv : For anyone working in the East side flying into EWR is a complete nightmare. Of course, only if you book the helicopter service... I disagree, especi
94 C010T3 : The big hit is referred to the daylight service, don't overlook that fact.
95 WorldTraveler : AA has won route cases since it bought the EA assets. Where the routes came from is not as important as the fact that AA and UA have both moved frequ
96 DeltaL1011man : or even daily JFK-GIG. both of these would likely keep US from getting CLT-GIG LOL Oh I agree AA is doing this. good point agreed see ya in 2010 huh?
97 LipeGIG : NYC-GIG is the largest individual US-GIG market, largest than even MIA-GIG. And not to consider it better consolidates BOS-GIG and BOS/JFK-Several st
98 LipeGIG : AA is moving unrestricted frequencies, DL is applying for restricted frequencies to use unrestricted ones. It's not the same, i'm sorry WT to disagre
99 FutureUScapt : What you are arguing over is clearly semantics. So you want US to change their reply from "never followed a policy..." to "not since 1992, has the DO
100 MAH4546 : They did. Only CO presents a strong application out of the four. So with US/AA/CO, it is which application is "least weak." The problem with AA's app
101 FutureUScapt : Agreed. Daily JFK-GIG service would've stood a better chance as would've one that coupled the 3 weekly JFK-GIG with 4 weekly MIA-BSB/FOR service. US'
102 LipeGIG : This is interesting. I have to say in this forum during more than 2 years a lot of people used to say.... there's no market for JFK-GIG... now it's c
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