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AA To Go Daily To Moscow  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32570 posts, RR: 72
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11654 times:

American Airlines has applied with DOT for an additional weekly Chicago-Moscow frequency, and plans to begin daily service effective 1 June 2009.


a.
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11577 times:

UA has cut it's service to 5x/w. I guess things aren't that bad for AA at Moscow after all  Smile. Yay!

-a



What now?
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11544 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 1):
UA has cut it's service to 5x/w. I guess things aren't that bad for AA at Moscow after all . Yay!

...until June when it resumes daily service.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineRIPCORDD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11463 times:

Wow this is good news I would think with the Russia market crashing worse than the US they wouldnt do this. Maybe they finally got a freight contract.

User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11423 times:

I don't know how much freight they could carry on Moscow to Chicago though. When I flew, we didn't even have a full load of pax, and they were talking about weight restrictions.

-A



What now?
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11293 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 4):
I don't know how much freight they could carry on Moscow to Chicago though. When I flew, we didn't even have a full load of pax, and they were talking about weight restrictions.

Well, I assume that you were talking about flying on the 763 because the 777 can do this route full payload without any load restrictions whatsoever. It still should be well within the range of the 763ER without much payload restriction.


However, remember, freight sometimes is the REAL money maker for airlines and is what keeps the routes alive. AA dumped DFW-KIX because it lost a key freight contract and couldn't fill a 777 on the route.

Chicago has a HUGE eastern European population which is why I imagine this route has been thought of for quite some time. I think it's second to perhaps JFK, not sure. But it's big enough for a carrier to want to serve it, and also not to mention the connecting pax to either coasts. Chicago is pretty well located to disperse passengers from Europe throughout the rest of the US.

(I'm still thinking that cargo is doing quite well for AA though, I look as that as the answer to the increased frequency and the route even staying, the 777 was a bit overkill though).

UAL


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11053 times:

AA and UA are still jockeying for who will succeed as the 2nd US carrier in Russia where average fares are on par with deep S. America routes. While loads have certainly taken a hit in the downturn, longterm Russia is an important market and AA and UA both know they have to be there.

AA has the headstart while UA is closer to being able to carry most of the traffic without a backhaul. Either way, the battle will be costly for both once the peak summer season is over, esp. if oil prices remain depressed.

The 763ER can certainly DME-ORD nonstop and still carry decent cargo.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11386 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10904 times:

I agree that it will ultimately come down to AA or UA, but not both. I personally don't think Russia can support more than two U.S. carriers - Delta + one other.

UA has the political and business traffic in D.C. and the Mid-Atlantic going for them, and a shorter (i.e., less fuel-intensive) route on their side, whereas AA links Moscow with a larger hub, and the only nonstop flight from Russia to the U.S. west of the Mississippi, and thus taps into traffic flows to the Midwest and West that Delta and United can't capture.

Should be interesting to watch.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32570 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10901 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
, and the only nonstop flight from Russia to the U.S. west of the Mississippi, and thus taps into traffic flows to the Midwest and West that Delta and United can't capture.

Aeroflot flies LAX-SVO.



a.
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10902 times:

Russian Population Density Map of the US: (Disclaimer, this really isn't an accurate map as it totally blanks out the entire counties in a certain color but gives somewhat of an indication of the opportunity west and south of the New York City Area).



UAL


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10905 times:

Fantastic news!! Big grin

I took this flight back in October with the thought in mind of "getting on it while the route lasted." But now at least it seems with the 777 to 763 downgauge it may last in the long-run. Excellent!!



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10903 times:

interesting graphic.... what counties/states are those in the northern plains.... those are not necessarily AA strength regions.

on a directional basis, the top markets to SVO by pax (DME shows only a handful of pax since no US carriers currently serve it) per day: JFK 143, LAX 61, IAD 27, SFO 22, ATL 20, ORD 15, MIA 14, SEA 14, BOS 10.
Based on current traffic, AA will be hard-pressed to get much of the pie. UA's geography is a bit more favorable but both AA and UA will have to take existing traffic from other carriers in order to make it. And I don't think any airline - US or the Euro carriers that also carry Russia traffic - are willing to give any traffic to new carriers in the market.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10904 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
(DME shows only a handful of pax since no US carriers currently serve it)

You forget AA??  eyebrow 



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10905 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
interesting graphic.... what counties/states are those in the northern plains.... those are not necessarily AA strength regions.

No, interestingly not. They are North and South Dakota I believe. However, I doubt the populations are very dense in these counties, therefore 1 russian living in a county with 800 people is going to be much different in color than 1 russian living in a county with 2,000,000 people. Get my drift?

Looks to me more like it would be NWA territory. But, over all, if you look at the map and combine the areas, the Chicago area for OD traffic, but the WEST is where AA would probably do well with this route, also MIA area it seems.

UAL


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24639 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10904 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
, and the only nonstop flight from Russia to the U.S. west of the Mississippi, and thus taps into traffic flows to the Midwest and West that Delta and United can't capture.

Aeroflot flies LAX-SVO.

And, just for the record, Vladivostok Air operates weekly seasonal service (mid-July to mid-September) ANC-PKC (Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky) in the Russian Far East.
http://www.vladivostokair.us/nwes_03_DEC_08.htm


User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9684 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
the only nonstop flight from Russia to the U.S. west of the Mississippi

Chicago is east of the Mississippi.


User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 868 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9624 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
and thus taps into traffic flows to the Midwest and West that Delta and United can't capture.

Delta captures a lot of traffic from the west coast at ATL. In reality, flying via Atl only adds approximately 20 minutes of total flying time. Hence the reason, ATL can connect so many people. Other than the mid-west and northwest, which are already well covered to Europe, ATL has the whole south and west coast which it can connect thru ATL. In fact, it's one of the reasons why ATL has so much connectivity to Europe whereas, even a hub like DTW has more difficulty getting that connecting traffic.

When it comes to West-Coast - Europe flights, it's a toss up between ATL and the midwest hubs.

The russian market will continue to grow IMO, but someone should start service to LED!



LH 442
User currently offlineAnetter123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9433 times:

Would AA ever consider complimenting its ORD-MOW flight with a MIA-MOW flight? Or will that flight go out of NYC or DFW first?

Transaero was suppose to start flying to MIA from DME but that hasn't happened yet.

I work at MIA and the majority of Russians I see arrive fly with either LH or AF (mostly LH).


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7172 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9322 times:
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AA is doing very well here; with the 763. The crew hotel they use cost a small fortune. I look forward to using #158/159 again soon. Jimbo hauls the mail on this flight!

 airplane 


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8872 times:



Quoting Anetter123 (Reply 17):
Would AA ever consider complimenting its ORD-MOW flight with a MIA-MOW flight? Or will that flight go out of NYC or DFW first?

I could see it before I ever saw DFW. I don't know what the passenger connections are from Moscow to South America, but it "might be viable" but I don't look for it. The ORD flight was best positioned for this route, and they downgraded that to a 763. I don't know why it was a 777 in the first place, perhaps AA thought there'd be enough premium traffic, but I thought it was overkill.

I've heard that MIA has a decent sized Russian population as well. But, like any new market, it takes some tweaking. I don't look for any more service to Moscow from AA or UA until these routes they have now become as solid as some routes like CDG, BRU, or FCO, well, mostly CDG.

(BTW, is AA still running a 777 there from JFK? I don't know why I thought they were or did for a while, but I haven't heard anything as of late).

UAL


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32570 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8831 times:



Quoting Anetter123 (Reply 17):
Would AA ever consider complimenting its ORD-MOW flight with a MIA-MOW flight? Or will that flight go out of NYC or DFW first?

MIA-MOW would happen way before DFW-MOW, but its moot because AA would never make it work.

Miami-Moscow needs a Russian airline - lower costs and better targets the market, which is Russian VFR and leisure.



a.
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8278 times:

Also, take into account that UA will operate 3-class while AA will operate 2-class 763s...

User currently offlineKPHXFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 413 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8203 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19):
I don't know why it was a 777 in the first place, perhaps AA thought there'd be enough premium traffic, but I thought it was overkill.

AFAIK they had to use the 777 on this route because it's flight computer was capable of displaying 0' altitude on the tarmac at Moscow (apparently a requirement of Russian aviation authority). The 763s had to be reprogrammed so as to not display ASL.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8248 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7971 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 19):
BTW, is AA still running a 777 there from JFK? I don't

AA never flew JFK to Moscow. Delta is the only USA airline operating the route and the only one that has nonstop, Pan AM did nonstop before Delta with a 747.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7899 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
(DME shows only a handful of pax since no US carriers currently serve it)

You forget AA??

no. the data wasn't pulling much traffic for DME as a destination. looking at just the segment, for the Q308, AA had an average fare of $660. ORDDME was 28% of the segment at an average fare of $827 but most of the top O&Ds except for MIA had average fares well below $600, meaning that AA heavily discounted many O&Ds in order to get enough traffic. Considering that UA will have to do the very same thing in order to establish itself in the MOW market, this might be a good time to visit Russia.


July 08 LF by DOT T100 was 67%; Jun was at 62% - these are based on a 245 seat 777. If an AA 763 was used, the LF for Jul would have been 74.


25 SFO2SVO : Did Panam actually fly 747 to SVO? I thought it was 747 to FRA and then Panam's 727 to SVO.
26 AA777223 : I think this is true. I also heard there was something about the 777s ability to read altitude from one of the autmated ground systems in meters vs.
27 UN_B732 : This is a *great* time to visit Russia. The dollar is strong against the rouble, United had some fares for early April departures, LGA-DME for $510 ro
28 BMI727 : Kind of. It wasn't the feet to meters conversion that caused problems however. Russia uses height above the ground and not sea level, so the altimete
29 Panamair : Yes, Pan Am did have nonstop 747 JFK-SVO service in the last few years (believe the nonstop started in 1988 - PA30 / 31 (still the same flight number
30 Tothestars : From the NYTimes, Published: February 28, 1992 Trans World Airlines is offering a special $598 round-trip fare between New York and Moscow to inaugera
31 UN_B732 : DL and SU had a codeshare? What year was this in? I vaguely remember flying Aeroflot on the A310 out of Delta's terminal 3.. and then on the 777 but I
32 Panamair : Sorry, my sentence was rather confusing..it was Pan Am that had the codeshare with SU on the 747 nonstop between SVO and JFK. I remember flying on PA
33 Shurik74 : Interesting... Never heard of PanAm codesharing, even thou the 747... Good to know...
34 UN_B732 : Interesting Who would've thought? REminds me of a bit of the DL/SR codeshare way back in the day, where their crews would fly on eachother's equipment
35 Jmy007 : If memory serves, TWA never had a non stop to Moscow from JFK, rather, a one stop via BRU.
36 JohnClipper : In 1991, PA had the following schedule to Russia... PA 30 JFK-SVO 747 Op. -2--56- PA 60 FRA-SVO 72S Op. 1------ PA 60 FRA-SVO-LED 72s Op. ---4--7
37 BMI727 : I dont think this was called a codeshare, as all the passengers would be ticketed on whoever owned the aircraft. I believe that the only thing that c
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