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OAG: Changes For Week Of Feb20 DL/NW; 3 Drops  
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7723 posts, RR: 15
Posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9819 times:

Slow week...

DL ATW-CVG out April CRJ
DL SAT-CVG out April CRJ
NW DTW-SHV out April CRJ
NW LAS-LAX out May 319 (see below)

Already mentioned in another thread:
DL JFK-MKE in 1 RT May CRJ
DL LAX-LAS in 1 RT Jun CR9
DL SLC-ELP in 1 RT Jun CR9

OAG changes are usually reflected in GDS by Monday.

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWeb From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9559 times:



Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
DL ATW-CVG out April CRJ

Makes sense, DTW can better handle any CVG-esque connections.

Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
DL SAT-CVG out April CRJ

They flew this with a CRJ? Have mercy! Talk about neck cramps...

Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
NW DTW-SHV out April CRJ

I have always wondered about that one. Seemed odd to me.



Next flight: GRR-ORD-PDX-SEA-ORD-GRR
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9530 times:



Quoting Web (Reply 1):

Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
NW DTW-SHV out April CRJ

I have always wondered about that one. Seemed odd to me.

Big GM plant in Shreveport.



a.
User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9482 times:



Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
NW DTW-SHV out April CRJ

Mike Boyd used to brag about how he identified the revenue streams and passenger flows associated with the GM plant and DTW.....


User currently offlinePilotfox From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9456 times:

DL as cut back on Northwestern WI.

Last year I think it they cut GRB to CVG and ATL

ATW lost one MKE YX flight, but they picked up some G4 flights.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9382 times:

In each case, there are stronger and closer DL/NW hubs to the destination city than the way the markets have previously been structured. The benefits of the merger will come from lots of little changes like this that when added up create significant value.

What isn't being mentioned is the equipment changes and frequency changes on existing routes that are balancing out the cuts that are taking place on other routes.


User currently offlineMsntriathlete From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

It surprises me that, with the discontinuation of GRB and ATW service to CVG, DL continues to operate MSN-CVG 2x daily. While it's nice to have a few more connection options, and sometimes a CVG connection is more convenient than the next-closest DTW connection, they really seem to duplicate each other.

User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9204 times:



Quoting Msntriathlete (Reply 6):
It surprises me that, with the discontinuation of GRB and ATW service to CVG, DL continues to operate MSN-CVG 2x daily. While it's nice to have a few more connection options, and sometimes a CVG connection is more convenient than the next-closest DTW connection, they really seem to duplicate each other.

I agree, but from all we've heard here, the DL flights to both CVG & ATL will be staying exactly as they are now...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineMSNtriathlete From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9151 times:

Not only is ATL staying, but it's increasing from 1x to 2x a day. The new morning flight will offer a number of connections not previously available, such as the Caribbean flights on the outbound, and the Europe arrivals on the return. I can see ATL being beefed up, as it offers a lot that DTW and MSP do not, but CVG seems to duplicate things. No complaints on my part having more options, though!

User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9122 times:
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Quoting Web (Reply 1):
Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
DL SAT-CVG out April CRJ

They flew this with a CRJ? Have mercy! Talk about neck cramps...

I've done AUS-CVG (97 miles difference) in packed CRJ-700s.
It's not so bad. Actually it goes quickly.

[Edited 2009-02-20 14:21:53]

User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9112 times:



Quoting MSNtriathlete (Reply 8):
Not only is ATL staying, but it's increasing from 1x to 2x a day.

Correct. Returns next month, IIRC... I was thinking of that (2 flts. to each) when I posted, but should have clarified.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8994 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 9):
I've done AUS-CVG (97 miles difference) in packed CRJ-700s.
It's not so bad. Actually it goes quickly.

I've done AUS, IAH, DFW on CRJs, as well as SLC on a CR9, and they all SUCK!!!! RJs should be banned on anything greater than 1 hour!



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 794 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 8791 times:



Quoting Enilria (Thread starter):
DL ATW-CVG out April CRJ

One sad thing is this route, along with many other, were operated profitably in the days before the all RJ fleet. This route was perfect for the E120 and still would be if DL had them in the fleet, aside from SLC. A lot of the CVG would be well served by a E120, D328, or DH8. Oh well, I reckon the bean counters know that it is better to completely pull out of markets than to put the right airplane on it.


727forever



727forever
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 8792 times:



Quoting Pilotfox (Reply 4):
DL as cut back on Northwestern WI.

But as NW is strong in WI, it's very possible that DL will restore GRB-ATL (and add frequency to other routes, such as is happening in MSN) in the future. ATW-CVG was dropped as DL continues to "right-size" CVG.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 8722 times:



Quoting 727forever (Reply 12):
One sad thing is this route, along with many other, were operated profitably in the days before the all RJ fleet. This route was perfect for the E120 and still would be if DL had them in the fleet, aside from SLC. A lot of the CVG would be well served by a E120, D328, or DH8. Oh well, I reckon the bean counters know that it is better to completely pull out of markets than to put the right airplane on it.

O/D between CVG/ATW is virtually nonexistent -- this route exists predominately to feed the CVG hub. Given that DL now operates much larger hubs at MSP & DTW, doesn't it make more sense to route traffic through there? DL's made the decision to downsize CVG, focusing on the local business market and feeding the hub through traditional DL strongholds.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8562 times:



Quoting Pilotfox (Reply 4):
DL as cut back on Northwestern WI.

Last year I think it they cut GRB to CVG and ATL

Just a geographical correction. ATW and GRB are in northeastern Wisconsin, not northwestern.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7723 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

When this thread went 3 hours without a post I thought it was gonna fall flat this week! Thanks for keeping it going!

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 3):
Mike Boyd used to brag about how he identified the revenue streams and passenger flows associated with the GM plant and DTW.....

Mr. Boyd is supportive of whoever is paying his bills!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
In each case, there are stronger and closer DL/NW hubs to the destination city than the way the markets have previously been structured.

I'm not sure that is strictly the strategy. It does appear SLC is being built up. I wonder if that will really succeed. To me, SLC is just like CVG but lower yield.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8234 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 16):
I'm not sure that is strictly the strategy. It does appear SLC is being built up. I wonder if that will really succeed. To me, SLC is just like CVG but lower yield.

SLC has about double the O&D that CVG has, that makes a huge difference. DL also has nothing that can serve many of the markets SLC serves, whereas CVG has DTW right there.

Jeremy


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7720 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 16):
I'm not sure that is strictly the strategy. It does appear SLC is being built up. I wonder if that will really succeed. To me, SLC is just like CVG but lower yield.

There is a huge difference between CVG and SLC. CVG is one of several hubs in the region it is surrounded by low-fare airports, and has easy road access to many major destinations. SLC is one of only two true hubs west of Denver and is extremely isolated, therefore having a captive air market.

SLC is already successful. This minor build-up isn't going to change that one way or the other.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7723 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7497 times:



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
SLC has about double the O&D that CVG has, that makes a huge difference.

If you had WN in CVG it would be double too, but I don't think DL wants WN in CVG.  Smile

If you carry that argument out it implies that Delta would do better in CVG if Southwest flew there because the market would be bigger (and the yields lower). I don't think you'll find anyone in power at Delta that believes that, even though it is plausible.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
DL also has nothing that can serve many of the markets SLC serves, whereas CVG has DTW right there.



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 18):
SLC is one of only two true hubs west of Denver and is extremely isolated, therefore having a captive air market.

It is very true that SLC is geographically isolated as a hub and that drives air traffic. It is also true that lower fares brought by WN have expanded the market. DEN is a lot bigger market than SLC and only F9 (recently) is making any money there. I think SLC is a much weaker market than DEN and WN could make DL very miserable in SLC if they wanted to.

By that I mean that SLC's geographic isolation means that the top 10 markets make up 37% of all O&D traffic while in CVG it's only 26%. That means WN can add SLC-SFO/SAN (for example) and do a lot of damage to SLC's financial performance.

That may be their hold card as they expand into strong DL/NW markets like MSP/BOS/LGA.


User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7461 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
DEN is a lot bigger market than SLC and only F9 (recently) is making any money there.

WN's holding their own in the majority of their DEN markets.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7723 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7254 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 20):
WN's holding their own in the majority of their DEN markets.

I think if you factor in that DEN is a very expensive airport to operate at plus post-hedge numbers, they would definitely be unprofitable.


User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7146 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 21):
I think if you factor in that DEN is a very expensive airport to operate at plus post-hedge numbers, they would definitely be unprofitable.

Happy a.net birthday!

More of WN's DEN routes make money than don't.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25710 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7025 times:
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Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 22):
More of WN's DEN routes make money than don't.

As Enilria knows, I'm not a numbers guy, but what is the time frame for that statement - Q3/08? Q4/08? Does it include now?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6996 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
By that I mean that SLC's geographic isolation means that the top 10 markets make up 37% of all O&D traffic while in CVG it's only 26%. That means WN can add SLC-SFO/SAN (for example) and do a lot of damage to SLC's financial performance.

True, but the problem with this scenario is that WN doesn't do well at all in SLC and never has. They've shown no interest in expanding at SLC even in good times, with lots of new airplanes coming in. I wouldn't expect them to try it now.


25 Enilria : Thanks! I agree that they probably don't make much in SLC, but I think that is pretty typical of their OA (other airline) hub performance. I'm just s
26 JohnJ : Not new service per se, but I notice in Delta's current online schedule they're putting a 757 on one of the MEM-ATL frequencies - the first time in ma
27 Cubsrule : It seems like there's quite a range of performance in other airlines' hubs; DTW--where they've never done well-- might be one extreme, and STL (if it
28 Rampguy : Same goes for other markets. IND-CVG O/D is non-existient as well. I'd say 99% of travelers are connecting pax, yet DL keeps this short hop between I
29 Jetlanta : I hear what you are saying, but also realize that they aren't going to pick a fight with Delta, which has over $6B in cash, just to make a point. Les
30 Nwaesc : I could've sworn the thread title mentioned NW/DL... I'll get my coat. Carry on.
31 Mariner : Speaking of which, I believe DL/NW each have three gates at DEN. Will they retain all six, or is there "synergy"? mariner
32 Cubsrule : Maybe PHL isn't a great example, then. But look at STL back when TW was alive and kicking; in the summer of 1999, for instance, WN had about 90 weekd
33 Jetlanta : True, but it was TWA, after all. WN doesn't even do well in STL against AA RJ's at this point.
34 Enilria : As others have said it is pretty well established that WN has done pretty badly in PHL. They did announce MSP. That seems like picking a fight. LGA a
35 Cubsrule : On what routes is WN doing poorly against AA RJs? Certainly not DEN, CMH, BWI, or MCI...
36 CompensateMe : Actually, AA avoids most WN markets from STL at this point. When I glanced at OAG last week, AA was planning on operating to 38 markets with 108 week
37 Atrude777 : and CLE, DAL (when AA had RJ STL-DAL) and Houston, when AA flew STL-IAH on RJ's... I bet other RJ routes, like OKC, TUL WN does better than AA does!
38 Cubsrule : That cuts both ways, though. Look at STL-LAX, for instance. AA ran WN off of that route. AA was at about 155 daily departures (~55 mainline and 100 C
39 Jetlanta : One market is not picking a fight. I should clarify. What I meant was that WN has not exactly found an enormous amount of overall success at STL, des
40 Enilria : I'm sure Delta doesn't take WN's entry into MSP as lightly as you do.
41 Jetlanta : I'm not taking it lightly, just making the point that WN isn't doing it to go after Delta. And I think Delta's competitive response is exactly the re
42 Cubsrule : I see your point, but I don't see what you expect out of WN. If the 80 flights that they had lost money, they'd reduce the size of the operation. Cle
43 Jetlanta : The thing is, they have 70 flights a day at STL, not 80. And if they used to have 90, as was mentioned here earlier, then they've reduced the operati
44 Cubsrule : It isn't. OTOH, the remaining flights are not a mark of DTW-type failure.
45 Jetlanta : Absolutely. I think we don't really disagree at all.
46 Burnsie28 : I took a CR9 on a two hour flight, granted i was in FC both ways, but it still was fine, I flew a CR7 on ORD-COS wasn't bad, but for that one I got u
47 Enilria : Why WN ---used to avoid--- these sort of excursions. WN's new strategy appears to be to attack everyone at once and see what happens. I tend to think
48 Cubsrule : That's one reading of it. Another is that they have to grow and these are the only places left to grow. Why they pick certain hubs and not others (MS
49 Enilria : They aren't growing, so they don't have to open *any* stations. They are doing all of this by rearranging the deck chairs. Great point on CVG. The ol
50 Cubsrule : I, too, got caught thinking of the "old WN." I think the point is the same, though. They have to maintain a certain network size, and if there's fat
51 Jetlanta : But they do have to grow their revenues...thats why they are picking up LGA, BOS and MSP. Because the first 10 flights at each of those are more valu
52 Cubsrule : Absolutely right. The interesting question to me is what changed on the revenue side. More revenue (or, as you say, big league revenue) is nice regar
53 PVD757 : I think its simply a way for WN to strengthen their entire network. The addition of these big markets will make the existing (and in some cases, small
54 Jetlanta : Exactly. Yeah, that is also about right. These incursions have far more to do with improving their current network, than some grand scheme to dominat
55 Enilria : I don't think DL will let them make more money in MSP than they made in whatever they pulled it from. If you are DL and you let WN make money in MSP,
56 MOBflyer : I concur. I take this a bit further, and think that its actually part of a long term plan that will eventually involve smaller markets for WN. The pr
57 Jetlanta : They'll eventually do ATL, I'm sure. But I think ATL is the worst of all worlds for them. Not only do you have Delta at the dominating the top end of
58 IgneousRocks : Well to reiterate what others already said...its about SWA giving their customers in Corpus Christi, Tampa, Providence, and elsewhere access to Atlan
59 Cubsrule : How much control will DL have? If WN isn't pursuing local traffic-- and it's clear that they're doing so much less than they historically have-- how
60 Jetlanta : You really think that WN connecting traffic from CRP is going to hurt Delta? Or do you imagine they are going to fly CRP-ATL nonstop? Do you really t
61 Burnsie28 : They currently have 33 daily flights, it would have been 34 had IND not been dropped, though I could see the possibility of the two CVG flights movin
62 Mariner : Comes the question of whether Southwest is actually "going after" anyone. As equally, a lot of people thought - and still think - they're weren't "go
63 WorldTraveler : I don't think you are naive and I agree with you but WN does know the difference between UA and US on the one hand and the rest of the network carrie
64 Jetlanta : Find the quote where WN said that one of the reasons was the merger Burnsie. You won't, because it isn't... No, you are correct. They will AVOID some
65 Mariner : I agree, I think they are extremely targeted and acutely aware of what they are doing in relationship to the competition. I don't think DEN was any a
66 IgneousRocks : My mistake. I forgot that Delta couldn't make money flying into CRP with CRJs plundering people's wallets with $700 walk up fares. I'm sure SWA's CRP
67 Jetlanta : I'm not disputing that Delta yields will drop to CRP and, of course, traffic will increase. My point is that the true effect on Delta is peanuts. CRP
68 Post contains links Enilria : It's not possible to make money only carrying connect and thru traffic. There is an amount of capacity DL can put on MDW-MSP that will make WN unprof
69 Cubsrule : I think WN must be planning on it. IIRC, FL never had a month with more than a 30% local load factor. WN is going to have something like twice as man
70 Mariner : Does it matter? MDW-MSP is one route in the system, they can surely carry it for as long as they want. They may have to cut back on a couple more "un
71 FlyPNS1 : Sure it is, but WN is no Reno Air. WN's going to continue along with their plan and I don't expect they'll get in some big tit for tat war. WN will h
72 Cubsrule : I don't think so. Mr. Kelly is not stupid. He knows how little local traffic FL got, and he probably knows that WN can do somewhat better. In short,
73 Mariner : I think it goes deeper than MSP. Mr Kelly owns the change of strategy at Southwest - the move into these several legacy hubs and thus his legacy is o
74 Enilria : Well, of course you can drive down the local fare down far enough with all that capacity to fill the plane up with $29 fares, but that doesn't come c
75 Mariner : There - we agree. mariner
76 Cubsrule : This is certainly the conventional wisdom, but it's also exactly what FL did, and the results (loads) were horrid. Yields were presumably terrible to
77 Enilria : As I said in my next point, IMHO this is more about defining the relationship with Delta than an attempt to make money. They know they won't make mon
78 Enilria : BTW, this is the type of thing that makes this industry so interesting to me. Sure, I suppose it's the same when Target opens a store across the stre
79 Jetlanta : Precisely. Wow, such drama. Let's be very clear about something. It is not a given by any stretch that WN can achieve even an "expensive" victory at
80 Mariner : Maybe surprisingly, it is one of the things that interest me. As you already know, my interest is largely in how very small airlines write their own
81 Enilria : To say that WN was at the peak of their power in the 1980s is considerably off-base. There is not much doubt that 2008 was the peak of their power. A
82 Ocracoke : How is WN now moving into MSP any different then them buying out Morris Air in 1993? Ever since that purchase, DL and WN have been going head to head
83 Mariner : Tough. It's an interesting read - but it can be a struggle. The hero's big speech is very, very long, which is okay if you agree with what he is sayi
84 Enilria : It's good to get a critical review. All the Amazon comments are gushing which makes me worry. That's different. When they got into SLC it was in a bi
85 FlyPNS1 : I largely agree with this assessment, hence I don't understand why you say this: While DL is a titan in size, there's only so much value in fighting
86 Enilria : Delta didn't pick this fight, Southwest did, but you have hit upon a key point. International is falling like a rock right now. Domestic travel is mu
87 Ocracoke : ..... Ok. I'll give you LAX, since that was a Western deal when WN started to make inroads into California. However, WN did enter MCO when DL conside
88 WorldTraveler : I completely agree. The difference is that BOS is not a hub so there are not artificially high flight levels in order to accommodate flow traffic and
89 FlyPNS1 : While international is taking a hit, I don't think DL will have to pull down that much capacity. And whatever they do pulldown will simply be grounde
90 Hjulicher : In this situation with WN moving into MSP, it's very much game theory. In reality, WN made the first move, and that was to enter MSP. I agree that th
91 MaverickM11 : SID flights were also pushed back three months I believe. (ABV and ROB)
92 Post contains links Mariner : So it may be more instructive to look at what United did at DEN, in response to Southwest. Initially, they made the same mistake as Frontier - the wa
93 MOBflyer : I understand that article was from April 2007, but in 2008Q3 - DEN was #2 of UA's four domestic hubs... and eeked out a small profit.
94 Mariner : By which time, fifteen months later, they had started to make some of the changes they signaled in 2007. The point being that the initial policy - tr
95 PVD757 : Is it bad that I've been looking for Enilria's thread for this weekend??? I just can't get the schedule changes fast enough I suppose!
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