FFlyerWorld From United States, joined Apr 2008, 236 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12694 times:
Read this past week that Delta is STILL pondering and supposedly VERY close to sealing a deal to add 20 plus MD-90's to the fleet. This has been talked about for years now but nothing has ever been confirmed. My question is IF they do complete this deal with Boeing Aircraft Leasing for 3 MD-90s's and the others from a Chinese carrier - will they be replacing MD 88's? or will they pull out RJ's and replace with these or what? Anyone with any "inside" information?
There is more speculation found on this link regarding acquistion of MD 90's
STT757 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 12065 posts, RR: 54 Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12595 times:
This rumor has been popping up for over a year, with current economic conditions leading to a substantial drop in air travel and the integration of the DL and NWA fleets I don't see where this is still an option. As I understand it the MD-90s would replace MD-88s which in turn would take over NWA DC-9 routes thus allowing the DC-9s to be retired, there's always the possibility that oil can spike at anytime and the DC-9 is not plane you want in your fleet when oil is high. The DC-9s burn on average 50% more fuel than a 737-800, unfortunately the MD-88s are not that much better. The MD-88s burn on average 30% more fuel than the 737-800s, the MD-90s also burn more fuel than the 737-800s however their low acquisition cost on the used market is why DL is interested.
I disagree with DL's thinking here, if I were in the business of giving advice to DL I would be beefing up their existing 737-800 as well as adding 737-900ERs to that order. The 737-800s can take over for the MD-88s which can replace the DC-9s out of DTW and MSP, and the 737-900ERs could take over for some of the oldest 757-200s as well as 73H's on Trans-Cons from JFK.
"'Brown Sugar' could save the world..." Eddie Vedder 10/14/97 Oakland, California
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12570 times:
It makes sense for DL to continue to ponder acquiring used MD-90, as acquisition costs would be relatively low whereas operating costs would be similar to the 320/738. Any deal would be heavily dependent upon acquisition cost. If a deal did happen, whether these planes would be utilized for expansion, replacing mainline types or RJ flying would be heavily dependent on DL's projected capacity needs.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12473 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1): ...the MD-90s would replace MD-88s which in turn would take over NWA DC-9 routes thus allowing the DC-9s to be retired...
The MD-88 is too big to be a direct DC-9 replacement. And as NW is integrated into DL, a re-fleeting will occur. Projected capacity needs will dictate whether the MD-90 are used for expansion, replacing RJ or replacing other mainline types. Right now there's too much uncertainty.
Quote: ...there's always the possibility that oil can spike at anytime and the DC-9 is not plane you want in your fleet when oil is high. The DC-9s burn on average 50% more fuel than a 737-800... The MD-88s burn on average 30% more fuel than the 737-800s...
On the shorter flights that the DC-9 and MD-88 predominately operate, the total trip cost isn't as extreme. Of course there's the possibility that the price of oil can spike at anytime... but oil should never have reached the levels it did, and nobody is projecting it to go that high anytime soon. You need to run a business within your best interests -- that would include preparing for panic situations, not crafting it for so.
Quote: ...the MD-90s also burn more fuel than the 737-800s...
I don't have the numbers offhand -- maybe someone else does -- but fuel burn is similar.
Quote: ...with current economic conditions leading to a substantial drop in air travel and the integration of the DL and NWA fleets I don't see where this is still an option.
The current economic conditions are also driving down the price of the MD-90. If DL could add additional frames to its fleet at low acquisition costs, and the aircraft provided superior operating benefits vs. the cost of types currently within the fleet, why wouldn't it be an option?
Quote: I disagree with DL's thinking here, if I were in the business of giving advice to DL...
Good thing you're not. DL's operated the MD-90 for more than 10 years -- it's already in the fleet. If additional frames could be added for a fraction the cost of a new 737NG, but have similar operating costs, then what would be the point of adding 737NG?
Evan767 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 2864 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12460 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1): I disagree with DL's thinking here, if I were in the business of giving advice to DL I would be beefing up their existing 737-800 as well as adding 737-900ERs to that order. The 737-800s can take over for the MD-88s which can replace the DC-9s out of DTW and MSP, and the 737-900ERs could take over for some of the oldest 757-200s as well as 73H's on Trans-Cons from JFK.
DL wants these MD-90's, I believe, to be based out of SLC. Using these MD-90's would take away most 738's from SLC that fly short-medium haul routes. Then, Delta can better utilize these 738's on longer, coast to coast routes.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
Hehehe yeah I always thought it looked majestic in the DL livery. To bad the plane couldn't have had a tad more legs to it or it might still be there. Oh well I guess the beast after my own heart the 777-200LR makes up for it
C5LOAD From United States, joined Sep 2008, 236 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12238 times:
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 6): To bad the plane couldn't have had a tad more legs to it or it might still be there
It could do soooo many of the trans-atlantic routes that DL wants now that they are expanding it, as well as Asia-US routes and InterAsia routes as well. I think they got rid of that thing way too early in its career. Just my opinion.
"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
Azjubilee From United States, joined Apr 2000, 3034 posts, RR: 39 Reply 8, posted (9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12186 times:
Jeez... here's a thought... why don't they just use what they just got from NWA? One of the major reasons in merging was for the NWA fleet to complement the DL fleet. Why spend tons of money when you can utilize the assets you just acquired? In this day of capacity reductions, I'm sure they can find some wiggle room in the schedule to increase utilization on the current fleet instead of making unnecessary capital investments.
C767P From United States, joined Oct 2008, 337 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12113 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 2): It makes sense for DL to continue to ponder acquiring used MD-90, as acquisition costs would be relatively low whereas operating costs would be similar to the 320/738.
I think it was shortly after Delta officially turned down US Airways Anderson had said the MD-90 has a lower operating cost compared to the 738 for Delta. Can anyone confirm that?
Cadet57 From United States, joined Jul 2005, 8010 posts, RR: 39 Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12017 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1): nd the 737-900ERs could take over for some of the oldest 757-200s as well as 73H's on Trans-Cons from JFK.
Why would you want to replace the 73H? It's brand new to the fleet and iirc was purchased for thinner trans-con routes as well as SLC routes (correct me if im wrong) So you'd be adding more seats where they wouldn't be warranted.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
DELTA7478 From United States, joined Dec 2008, 112 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11968 times:
I also think they need to get more 737-700's and 800 to replace the old MD-88's and the 737-900ER to start replacing the older 757-200's. I think the desition is going to be made buy the state of the economy and fuel. The MD-88's and even MD-90's burn about 39% more fuel the the newer 737's so that might make the final desition. I do think they will take more MD-90's to replace some older MD-88's and our new DC-9-30s from NW. Right know DL has about 60 737-800s options that can easly be put in to orders acording to DL Net.
Will just have to see.
Fleet as of September 30, 2008
Aircraft Type Current Fleetd Orders Options Rolling Options
aExcludes 32 aircraft which will be sold to third parties immediately following delivery of these aircraft to us.
bExcludes 5 aircraft orders we assigned to Pinnacle Airlines.
cIncludes three B767-300 and two MD88 aircraft that have been temporarily grounded.
dDuring the quarter, Delta:
• Accepted delivery of four B737-700 aircraft;
• Permanently grounded two B757-200 aircraft;
• Purchased four B757-200 aircraft that were previously leased;
• Entered into sale-leaseback arrangements on four B757-200 aircraft;
• Permanently grounded three CRJ100/200 aircraft pending return to lessor; and
• Sold one B757-200 and one CRJ100 aircraft.
eTwo Embraer 175 aircraft have been received but had not been placed into service before September 30, 2008 and therefore are not included in the table above.
PanAm330 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2409 posts, RR: 15 Reply 12, posted (9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11942 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1): I disagree with DL's thinking here, if I were in the business of giving advice to DL I would be beefing up their existing 737-800 as well as adding 737-900ERs to that order. The 737-800s can take over for the MD-88s which can replace the DC-9s out of DTW and MSP, and the 737-900ERs could take over for some of the oldest 757-200s as well as 73H's on Trans-Cons from JFK.
I disagree with yours. You'd have them pass up perfectly good, modern and most of all cheap aircraft to add yet another fleet type? That makes no sense at all, from a financial standpoint. They already have MD90s, and they do a great job ex-SLC. The fuel burn can't be too different - the aircraft uses the same engines that the A320 does (the IAE V2500).
STT757 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 12065 posts, RR: 54 Reply 13, posted (9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11833 times:
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10): Why would you want to replace the 73H?
Replace on trans-con routes, not replace from the fleet. The 737-900 offers a lower CASM than the 737-800s which helps especially in markets where there's heavy LCC competition, DL's not exactly tearing it up with their trans-cons from JFK.
Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 12): I disagree with yours. You'd have them pass up perfectly good, modern and most of all cheap aircraft to add yet another fleet type?
737-700s, 737-800s and 737-900ERs are the same type, different models but same type.
"'Brown Sugar' could save the world..." Eddie Vedder 10/14/97 Oakland, California
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11756 times:
Quoting DELTA7478 (Reply 11): I also think they need to get more 737-700's
No. The 73W should only be used where the performance is needed. As such it will remain a relatively small subfleet. Other routes should use the 73H as it has a lower CASM.
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 14): Will the MD's still be economically sound?
More so than the DC-9 and MD-80 for sure. Plus, 737s can only be delivered so fast and the 90s will come far cheaper anyway. Having a large DC-9 and MD-80 fleet will put Delta in a corner if oil spikes again which is not out of the realm of possibility.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
TISTPAA727 From United States, joined May 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11744 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 13): The 737-900 offers a lower CASM than the 737-800
Isn't that just because it has more seats? If you can't fill up the seats it won't make sense to move up to the 739. Thinking long-term, you are probably right. As the economy recovers, more capacity will be needed and the 739 could fit the bill perfectly.
1337Delta764 From United States, joined Oct 2005, 3278 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11730 times:
Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 16): Isn't that just because it has more seats? If you can't fill up the seats it won't make sense to move up to the 739. Thinking long-term, you are probably right. As the economy recovers, more capacity will be needed and the 739 could fit the bill perfectly.
I actually think the 739ER would be a good aircraft to use on ABQ-ATL in the summer. After all, DL has no trouble filling 757s on the route in the summer, and the 739ER is somewhat more efficient than the 752 on the route. Both the 739ER and the 752 offer superior hot-and-high performance compared to the MD-88. The last time DL flew the MD-88 on ABQ-ATL (and ABQ-CVG) during the summer, flights were often weight restricted, resulting in quite a few empty seats.
TISTPAA727 From United States, joined May 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11683 times:
Good point. For some reason (must be tired) was thinking the 739s would be to upgrade some MD-88 and 738 routes. As a 752 replacement, yes, that would make sense.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11654 times:
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 14): Will the MD's still be economically sound? Personally I would go for a more modern option, maybe more B737NG's?
The MD-90 is of the same generation as the A320 and B737NG families. I explained the advantages in my earlier replies.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 13): Replace on trans-con routes, not replace from the fleet. The 737-900 offers a lower CASM than the 737-800s
Why would DL want to acquire B739ER when it has a surplus of B757? The cost advantage of the B739 is small and weighed against acquisition and start-up costs (e.g. training), what sense would it make for DL to add this type to its fleet? DL operates more than 170 B757. CO has 41.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17): I actually think the 739ER would be a good aircraft to use on ABQ-ATL in the summer.
I don't know where ABQ came from, but it's an insignificant market in deciding a fleet plan. Same argument as above.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11633 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18): Ordering 739ERs makes sense for most of the American legacy carriers as 757s are transitioned to trans-Atlantic flying.
There's roughly 40 B757 within DL's fleet that will ever fly across the Atlantic. If DL needed additional domestic lift in the sub-200 passenger-market, it wouldn't have parked/sold off several of its 757 already. Yes, several of these aircraft are aging but there's still plenty of life left in them.
I actually think the 739ER would be a good aircraft to use on ABQ-ATL in the summer. After all, DL has no trouble filling 757s on the route in the summer, and the 739ER is somewhat more efficient than the 752 on the route. Both the 739ER and the 752 offer superior hot-and-high performance compared to the MD-88. The last time DL flew the MD-88 on ABQ-ATL (and ABQ-CVG) during the summer, flights were often weight restricted, resulting in quite a few empty seats.
You are so right.. My marents live in ABQ and it's almost imposible to get out of there if the flights are full, I also realize that wen they had the 757's from ATL the flight was 92% full. The 737-900ER will make DL money on that route.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11393 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21): it wouldn't have parked/sold off several of its 757 already.
I'm not an insider but when did this happen? The last movement in DL's 757 fleet (other than the NW acquisition) was that they got and refurbished those (17?) ex AA/TW birds.
For that matter, how do NW's 757s fit into all of this. I recall seeing on this board that some of them (5500) are rather old and tired, but even the oldest 75s have plenty of useful life left with a litte TLC. How many of NW's 75s are ETOPS certified and how many can be in the future if needed?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
WorldTraveler From United States, joined Aug 2003, 6755 posts, RR: 30 Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11399 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 3): Quote:
...the MD-90s also burn more fuel than the 737-800s...
I don't have the numbers offhand -- maybe someone else does -- but fuel burn is similar.
The A320 and MD90 have almost identical fuel burn stats both per aircraft and per seat. The 738 is slightly higher but its missions are longer and thus fuel burn is higher; on a per seat basis, though, the 738 compares very favorably esp. because DL has 160 seats in many 738s.
The real benefit for the M90 comes from its very low ownership costs; it is an orphan plane. It doesn't have the performance of other newer generation aircraft like the 320 and the 738 but Dl doesn't need to have transcon performance for every aircraft in its fleet. The lower ownership costs more than make the M90 a very smart alternative for DL. The fact that other carriers are dumping older and orphan aircraft is driving down M90 values so it is worth DL's while to wait until those values bottom out before buying or leasing based on current values. Even if the M90 is used for only 10 years, it still is a far cheapr alternative to newer generation aircraft.
DL is also being careful not to stress the balance sheet since credit is tight and merger integration does have costs. Once the bottom is found in the economy and DL knows how it is positioned at that point, it is easier to start spending money on aircraft.
Most of the leases DL signed in bankruptcy were for 7 year terms so most of the DL leased aircraft at the time of BK will be around until 2015 or so unless DL terminates the leases early. There are enough older DL and NW aircraft which are paid for and or owned/mortgaged which can be retired that it isn't necessary to early terminate aircraft.
There are older 757s and M88s as well as the DC9s that have or soon will reach the end of their normal economic life for a network carrier. Those aircraft will be the most likely to leave - some are owned and some are leased.
Finally, DL has said they either want to increase the size of the M90 fleet or get rid of it. Based on current economics and the number of M90s that are on the market, it is more likely that DL will eventually grow the M90 fleet rather than dispose of it.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10992 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23): I'm not an insider but when did this happen? The last movement in DL's 757 fleet (other than the NW acquisition) was that they got and refurbished those (17?) ex AA/TW birds.
NW is currently operating 45 B752. Last year, 10 were WFU; they were sold last month. They will not return to NW/DL.
-- 22 -5500 series (delivered 1985-1988)
-- 15 -5600 series (delivered 1995-1996) 8 w/winglets in WBC config. (ETOPS180)
-- 8 -5600 series (delivered 2000-2001) 5 w/winglets
All -5600 series will eventually receive winglets -- all of these aircraft could be ETOPS180.
***
Delta is currently operating 130 B752. 9 aircraft have permanently been retired, although 3 are stored.
breakdown by delivery year (delivered new to DL):
84--85--86--87--88--89--90--91--92--93--95--97--98-- 99--00--01
3----3---10--11---8----8----9----8---11---4---2---1----9-----7---12--3
Additional,
--4 ex-TZ & SQ aircraft delivered in 1984, acquired by DL in 1996
--17 ex-AA & TW aircraft delivered in 96 (2), 97 (9), 99 (5) and 00 (1), acquired by DL in 2007-2008
Avconsultant From United States, joined Feb 2006, 1196 posts, RR: 3 Reply 27, posted (9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10823 times:
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 14): Personally I would go for a more modern option, maybe more B737NG's?
I think people are failing to realize we are in a major economic crisis driven by a failure of the credit market. DL nor any other airline can obtain credit at this point. This is a pointless debate of why they're choosing a cheaper airframe.
STT757 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 12065 posts, RR: 54 Reply 28, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10234 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 20): Why would DL want to acquire B739ER when it has a surplus of B757? The cost advantage of the B739 is small and weighed against acquisition and start-up costs (e.g. training), what sense would it make for DL to add this type to its fleet? DL operates more than 170 B757. CO has 41.
Many of those 757s are going to reach 30 years of service in the not too distant future, almost 30 years of back and forth flying between ATL and Florida etc..
When the aircraft on order are delivered DL will have 114 737-700/800s, adding the 900ER model would just add another model as the 737-700s, 737-800s and 737-900ERs are common types. There's really no additional costs.
"'Brown Sugar' could save the world..." Eddie Vedder 10/14/97 Oakland, California
Enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 2206 posts, RR: 6 Reply 29, posted (9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9930 times:
IMHO Delta is in the worst position in the current economic crisis. They have put all (OK, half) their eggs in the international basket and it is looking more and more like transatlantic and transpac is cratering as the economy drops. Delta is going to be left with the wrong fleet if they have to reverse course and dump planes back into domestic.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9853 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 28): Many of those 757s are going to reach 30 years of service in the not too distant future, almost 30 years of back and forth flying between ATL and Florida etc..
I posted the age breakdown above; outside three aircraft, the oldest frames won't be 30 for at least six years. Undoubtedly we'll see a number of 757 retirements in the upcoming years, but with the merged fleet and re-fleeted network, it's likely DL will have an excess supply of sub-200 passenger aircraft, anyway. Again, there isn't much cost advantage in operating a 739 vs. 752... and if DL felt a need for additional/replenished lift in the sub-200 passenger market, it could take advantage of distressed 757 prices on used aircraft. By the time the core of the 757 fleet is needed replacing, a next generation aircraft (beyond 739) will probably be available.
There's advantages in acquiring new aircraft but there's advantages in acquiring used, modern aircraft. If oil were to spike again, prices will soar and demand will fall. It's easier to park older, depreciated aircraft than newer models.
Quote: When the aircraft on order are delivered DL will have 114 737-700/800s, adding the 900ER model would just add another model as the 737-700s, 737-800s and 737-900ERs are common types. There's really no additional costs.[
The number will be lower as DL's sold all but two of its 738 scheduled for delivery. And there's plenty of additional costs in training a 757 pilot pool onto the 739, among other things...
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9791 times:
Quoting Enilria (Reply 29): Delta is going to be left with the wrong fleet if they have to reverse course and dump planes back into domestic.
I don't know how you came up with that (or many other of your) conclusion, but NW's widebody fleet is only 2/3 the size it was pre-SARS and all of DL's 764, plus eight of its 763ER, were floating within its domestic system not long ago. Worst-case scenario is that many older models within the combined fleet would see an expedited retirement, or models coming up for maintenance temporarily WFU & parked in the desert...
pull more RJ out (CR2s) and put more 90s in the SLC hub
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1): As I understand it the MD-90s would replace MD-88s
no. The M90s would be used to replace 738s on short hauls out of SLC (the 738s would move to other hub which i guess could replace M88s) and replace CR2s in SLC.
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 8): Jeez... here's a thought... why don't they just use what they just got from NWA?
because if they start to pull 319/320s they have to down grade routes and if they don't open a crew base they have A) get the aircraft back to MSP/DTW/MEM and B) worry about crews. The M90s are (at least in the summer based in SLC and have a few short ATL flights) which makes it pretty easy to deal with. The DC9s would be alot like the 88s are in the summer out in SLC, a pure pain in the a**
all do IIRC. only thing that is not the same on the 73H and 73Y is the lack of PTV/DoD and some of the 73Ys have yet to get winglets.
Quoting Papatango (Reply 25): How about some used 777;s, the SQ birds come to mind?
its a good idea but may not be worth it. They have Trent 884s vs. 895s and the SQ birds have higher cycles.
Quoting Avconsultant (Reply 27): I think people are failing to realize we are in a major economic crisis driven by a failure of the credit market. DL nor any other airline can obtain credit at this point. This is a pointless debate of why they're choosing a cheaper airframe
DL could lease or buy them they have are sitting on a pretty nice bunch of cash.
Quoting Enilria (Reply 29):
IMHO Delta is in the worst position in the current economic crisis. They have put all (OK, half) their eggs in the international basket and it is looking more and more like transatlantic and transpac is cratering as the economy drops. Delta is going to be left with the wrong fleet if they have to reverse course and dump planes back into domestic.
ummm you do know that Delta is more 40/60 and is now on par with the rest of the big 5.
save CO who is 50/50.
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3695 posts, RR: 14 Reply 33, posted (9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9291 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24): as well as the DC9s that have or soon will reach the end of their normal economic life for a network carrier. Those aircraft will be the most likely to leave - some are owned and some are leased.
I think if there is an aircraft that is slated for the soonest extinction in the DL fleet it will be the NW DC-9. If DL doesn't expand the MD-90 fleet, look for the remaining MDD aircraft to be gone long before any Airbus equipment.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 34, posted (9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9261 times:
As i read into it its said 3 are coming in march
My question is where did BCC get 3 M90s from?
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 33): look for the remaining MDD aircraft to be gone long before any Airbus equipment.
not sure I'd say long before any AB but if Delta doesn't get anymore 90s they will likely send them on a one way flight to VCV.
the thing DL is saying about the 90s is A) get more or B) send the rest away.
If they don't get more its likely we will see a top off 737 order to replace these plus a few to replace some RJs in SLC
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7617 times:
Quoting UpstateDave (Reply 35): There are more A320 family in the combined fleet than 737s
That isn't nearly the only consideration. Plus, with a fleet of over 30 or so, fleet commonality isn't as important. Then there is DL's gentlemen's agreement with Boeing that allows them to get good deals on planes. Plus, the MD-90s and A320s were designed at roughly the same time, and any of the MDs are still viable on shorter flights. I don't expect any major narrowbody orders from DL, but if I did, I'd be that they would be for 737NGs.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3695 posts, RR: 14 Reply 37, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7592 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 34): If they don't get more its likely we will see a top off 737 order to replace these plus a few to replace some RJs in SLC
That would be very nice. If they were to go after more 737s, I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800. I don't think you'll see the 900 in the DL fleet since despite some stating retirements of 752s they still have a large number.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7581 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37): I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800.
I would say just the opposite. DL would want the improved economics that come with the strectched -800. The -700s are best used on routes that require the excellent payload range performance of the 73G, like some of the South America flights. Because of this, I think that the 73G will not be used in large numbers, maybe 20 tops at this point.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
MCOAviationFan From United States, joined Jul 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7525 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38): The -700s are best used on routes that require the excellent payload range performance of the 73G, like some of the South America flights.
This was exactly the reason DL gave for purchasing the -700, namely using the fleet to airports where the -800 had performance issues and the 757 was too large. Airports like TGU, SNA, UIO, etc. It was never intended to be a large part of the fleet.
In previous discussions regarding the rumored MD90 jets from China, there was speculation that the -90s would be used not only in mountain areas, but also to free up some A319s which could then replace some DC9 flying. DL is more intent on keeping the DC9-50 fleet and retiring the -30s and -40s.
DL has given no indications it is interested in purchasing any new build NB aircraft at this time beyond the 737-700s needed for niche flying. The main focus right now is WB aircraft for future Asian expansion (when the economy recovers) and fleet replacement (747-400). Of course, this is tempered by the credit situation and the need to preserve cash in this economic environment.
1337Delta764 From United States, joined Oct 2005, 3278 posts, RR: 1 Reply 41, posted (9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7350 times:
I wonder, if DL buys the MD-90s from China Southern or China Eastern, will DL add IFE to them? Unlike DL's MD-90s, the China Southern/Eastern MD-90s are not equipped with IFE. Since DL mostly uses the MD-90 on short to medium haul routes, I don't think DL will add AVOD to them, however, perhaps overhead LCDs may be a good idea for consistency.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7292 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36): Then there is DL's gentlemen's agreement with Boeing that allows them to get good deals on planes.... don't expect any major narrowbody orders from DL, but if I did, I'd be that they would be for 737NGs.
And you don't think that DL, now the world's largest airline with the world's third largest Airbus fleet, couldn't get as good of a deal -- if not better -- from Airbus?
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37): That would be very nice. If they were to go after more 737s, I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800...
One of the reasons NW choose to dump nearly 20 new A319 during bankruptcy was because costs were too similar to that of the 320, despite the loss of nearly 25 seats. The DC-9-50 look like they'll stay a little bit longer (only one has been retired). Between the D95/319/73G, DL has itself covered in the sub-125 seat arena.
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 39): DL has given no indications it is interested in purchasing any new build NB aircraft at this time... The main focus right now is WB aircraft for future Asian expansion (when the economy recovers) and fleet replacement (747-400). Of course, this is tempered by the credit situation and the need to preserve cash in this economic environment.
That sums it up. DL's already cited overhauling its Pacific fleet mixture as one of its top priorities. Further, it has expressed that it's cheaper (factoring in ownership costs) to operate its MD-88 fleet than to acquire and operate new-build aircraft -- and oil's half the price as it was under this projection.
Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 13055 posts, RR: 65 Reply 43, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7282 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 3): The MD-88 is too big to be a direct DC-9 replacement.
The only real DC-9 replacement right now is the CRJ1000 and E190/5. You could make an argument for the MD-88 replacing the DC-9-50s, though, and that might happen a bit.
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10): Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
nd the 737-900ERs could take over for some of the oldest 757-200s as well as 73H's on Trans-Cons from JFK.
Why would you want to replace the 73H? It's brand new to the fleet and iirc was purchased for thinner trans-con routes as well as SLC routes (correct me if im wrong) So you'd be adding more seats where they wouldn't be warranted.
I doubt DL would have a problem filling a 739ER on transcons out of JFK.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 20): Why would DL want to acquire B739ER when it has a surplus of B757?
Because the 757 is too much airplane for a lot of shorter routes (like ATL-Florida). The 739ER can carry a similar passenger load in a ligher airframe, which means lower costs. And lower costs on leisure routes are always good.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 44, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7236 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42): Further, it has expressed that it's cheaper (factoring in ownership costs) to operate its MD-88 fleet than to acquire and operate new-build aircraft -- and oil's half the price as it was under this projection.
DL would be foolish to base any projections on sub-$60 oil, though. It's not going to stay there forever.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 30): Again, there isn't much cost advantage in operating a 739 vs. 752... and if DL felt a need for additional/replenished lift in the sub-200 passenger market, it could take advantage of distressed 757 prices on used aircraft. By the time the core of the 757 fleet is needed replacing, a next generation aircraft (beyond 739) will probably be available.
Could you maybe cite some numbers? The 739 has much lower fuel burn, though ownership costs are higher-- so you have to make some assumptions about fuel prices in order to compare the two.
3holeflyer From United States, joined May 2008, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7151 times:
As demand goes up & down, is there any chance that DL will assign DC-9's routes that are not the NW regulars routes? To replace a 319 on a weak route (& free up seats for somewhere else) or increase seats on a CRJ route?
Gsosbee From United States, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 1 Reply 47, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7124 times:
Interesting discussion on the DC-9's and on a like for like basis the -9 cannot match a newer airplane. However, the -9's are paid for. That is a BIG plus in any discussion.
Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 13055 posts, RR: 65 Reply 48, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7084 times:
Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 47): However, the -9's are paid for. That is a BIG plus in any discussion.
But it's the only plus. Right now, with fuel prices where they are, the DC-9s are fine. But should fuel go up again like it did over the summer, the minuses are going to start outweighing that plus very quickly.
How come everyone is calling for more 737NGs? There are more A320 family in the combined fleet than 737s
Because Delta can get a fleet of 60 738s by 2015.
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37): That would be very nice. If they were to go after more 737s, I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800. I don't think you'll see the 900 in the DL fleet since despite some stating retirements of 752s they still have a large number.
nope it'll be more 800s if they replace the 90s they will go for the a/c around the smae size.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 41): I wonder, if DL buys the MD-90s from China Southern or China Eastern, will DL add IFE to them? Unlike DL's MD-90s, the China Southern/Eastern MD-90s are not equipped with IFE. Since DL mostly uses the MD-90 on short to medium haul routes, I don't think DL will add AVOD to them, however, perhaps overhead LCDs may be a good idea for consistency.
more than likely they will get drop down LCDs like the M90s and 73Ys have
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42): That sums it up. DL's already cited overhauling its Pacific fleet mixture as one of its top priorities. Further, it has expressed that it's cheaper (factoring in ownership costs) to operate its MD-88 fleet than to acquire and operate new-build aircraft -- and oil's half the price as it was under this projection.
The fact that half of the M88 flight (60ish a/c) will be gone by 2015 says to me more 737s will be ordered. I don't see Delta leasing these planes again. The rest will stay till Y1
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 50, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7036 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 48): But should fuel go up again like it did over the summer, the minuses are going to start outweighing that plus very quickly.
Fuel price volatility is exactly why it's nice to have the -9s around, though. Because they're owned, they're an excellent source of variable capacity-- and the combined airline has enough very short (<300 mile) routes that need a 125 seat aircraft that it probably makes sense to keep some number of them around regardless. The fuel burn difference isn't very high on those segments.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6990 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44): DL would be foolish to base any projections on sub-$60 oil, though. It's not going to stay there forever.
The projections were based upon $75. Sorry, but it'd be foolish to build a business model upon any higher amount. The network carrier concept that's been in place/development for nearly 30 years isn't viable at the oil prices we saw last summer; the entire US commercial aviation industry would need overhaul. In the mean time, you'd wind up with oodles of excess capacity on the market; parking older, depreciated aircraft would be much easier than operating all those shiny, new aircraft. Delta has the right business model.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44): Could you maybe cite some numbers? The 739 has much lower fuel burn, though ownership costs are higher-- so you have to make some assumptions about fuel prices in order to compare the two.
and
Quoting Mir (Reply 43): Because the 757 is too much airplane for a lot of shorter routes (like ATL-Florida). The 739ER can carry a similar passenger load in a ligher airframe, which means lower costs. And lower costs on leisure routes are always good.
I'll add an addendum later with the numbers. But the difference in fuel burn isn't significant enough to justify investing in the 739, especially given a gult of sub-200 passenger capacity within the DL fleet and distressed 757 pricing on the open market.
Quoting Mir (Reply 48): But it's the only plus. Right now, with fuel prices where they are, the DC-9s are fine. But should fuel go up again like it did over the summer, the minuses are going to start outweighing that plus very quickly.
I'm sounding like a broken record but... if fuel prices soar, ticket prices will rise and demand will fall. At that point, you'll need to remove capacity. It's easier to park a DC-9 than a shiny new 737.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 52, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6972 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 51): The projections were based upon $75. Sorry, but it'd be foolish to build a business model upon any higher amount.
You have to build a business model based on some number. That's why most airlines pay people a lot of money to attempt to forecast oil prices.
And you're incorrect that airlines cannot survive with higher oil prices. We saw last summer that airlines have difficulty making money with high oil prices and a slowing economy. There's no rule, however, that the two have to go together. If the economy is growing 5% a year, airlines can probably make money with $150 oil.
CompensateMe From United States, joined Jan 2009, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6929 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 52): You have to build a business model based on some number. That's why most airlines pay people a lot of money to attempt to forecast oil prices.
Are you arguing with yourself? DL built its forecasts on $75.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 52): And you're incorrect that airlines cannot survive with higher oil prices. We saw last summer that airlines have difficulty making money with high oil prices and a slowing economy. There's no rule, however, that the two have to go together. If the economy is growing 5% a year, airlines can probably make money with $150 oil.
I'm amused; I work in the industry and know first hand the effects of high oil prices -- and the network concept largely collapsed. As significant as the changes we made were, we merely put a band-aid on. The largest changes that were being developed never came to be as the crisis was over in just a matter of months. If it had prolonged, things would've changed. I never said airlines couldn't survive but that the model in place would be changed forever.
WESTERN737800 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 491 posts, RR: 1 Reply 54, posted (9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6722 times:
I dont think DL will get too many new 737s or 319/320s in the near future. If they can get the M90s at a decent price they should do it. They could pull some CRJ2s out of SLC and use some to replace some DC93/4s.
AvConsultant From United States, joined Feb 2006, 1196 posts, RR: 3 Reply 55, posted (9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6696 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24): Finally, DL has said they either want to increase the size of the M90 fleet or get rid of it. Based on current economics and the number of M90s that are on the market, it is more likely that DL will eventually grow the M90 fleet rather than dispose of it.
I remember when the MD-90 rumor popped up a year or so ago. One of the rumor to go along with this was they would be based in CVG.
Any thoughts where they will be deployed?
Who these aircraft be opened for NW pilots to bid?
MCOAviationFan From United States, joined Jul 2007, 237 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6596 times:
Quoting Web (Reply 45): Why is this? I would think the -30s would be more attractive since they fill the gap between the CR9/E75 and the A319. What makes -50s so desirable?
The -50 offers a better CASM than the -30 or -40 mainly due to its larger capacity.
Quoting Mir (Reply 43): I doubt DL would have a problem filling a 739ER on transcons out of JFK.
I agree. The questions are at what yield could you fill the airplane and how much would your ownership costs increase versus a 757. Also, any 739 ordered today would not be delivered for at least 18 months.
Quoting Mir (Reply 48): Right now, with fuel prices where they are, the DC-9s are fine. But should fuel go up again like it did over the summer, the minuses are going to start outweighing that plus very quickly.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 50): Because they're owned, they're an excellent source of variable capacity
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 51): if fuel prices soar, ticket prices will rise and demand will fall. At that point, you'll need to remove capacity. It's easier to park a DC-9 than a shiny new 737.
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 58, posted (9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6557 times:
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 61): Also, any 739 ordered today would not be delivered for at least 18 months.
more like 12 months. IIRC thats when DL's options start to pick up again. DL can get 14 737NGs next year. They already have 2 ordered as 800s but the other 12 can be 600,700,700ER,800, or 900ER.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 61, posted (9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6410 times:
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 65):
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 64):
If DL want to expand their long haul netowork, they could order more B777's or maybe some B777-300's.
Stay tuned. You may hear something from DL soon.
Does DL need more 773/744 sized aircraft? Honest question... I don't know that I have a good answer.
Are they going to wait until the pilot fences come down? It seems like getting 773s would make more sense once they don't have to have a DL 777 pilot group and a NW one.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 65, posted (9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6154 times:
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 69): The pilot fences do not come down until 5 years after SOC is granted so the clock has not begun yet.
OTOH, there's some lead time between the time at which a decision is made and the time when the aircraft start arriving on property. We're probably looking at something like a 3 year delay if they choose to wait until the fences come down.
Hjulicher From Russia, joined Feb 2005, 768 posts, RR: 3 Reply 67, posted (9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6077 times:
Has anyone realized that compensateme has stopped contributing? I think given excess capacity in the market currently, it's very unrealistic for any airline to go out and acquire more airplanes just because they have low acquisition costs. True, I understand the value of buying used since taking delivery of new planes is very costly, but in all honesty, when capacity is so much in excess, isn't better for any airline to rationalize its fleet and maybe try to get more efficiency out of what they have?
I for one think that no new airplanes need to ordered for DL except perhaps a couple more 772LR's. They have the whole spectrum well covered, and considering that business will be using techonology more and more for meetings instead of travel, one has to expect that travel demand will decrease. Thus, owning planes outright is probably one of the better models given the industry dynamics. If you have no high paying passengers to pay for the expensive new plane, then operating flights on older type makes sense. Fares can be lower.
Now granted, if oil were to spike, then you have the dilemma of efficiency versus cost of ownership. In this situation, it probably makes sense to operate newer aircraft, but at what price does oil have to be in order for a D95 to be as costly to operate in total as a brand new 737NG ?
I think that's one of the main questions that airlines are analyzing, and they have to see how well they can hedge fuel in order to make that number balance in the direction they want.
I also think that this is going to be the trend for some time with airlines. Recently Airbus and Embraer have announced decreases in output for this model year. Looks like airline are re-evaluating their needs, and it comes at a very inopportune time for Boeing as their 787 project is so delayed.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 68, posted (9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6048 times:
Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 72): In this situation, it probably makes sense to operate newer aircraft, but at what price does oil have to be in order for a D95 to be as costly to operate in total as a brand new 737NG ?
I alluded to this previously, but a lot of the answer to that question depends on the stage length we're talking about; the operating cost gap is much larger on an 800 mile flight than on a 200 mile one. That leads to a question of what DL's strategy with respect to these shorter flights is. There was a point when almost all flying shorter than, say, 400 miles at CVG and SLC was done by 50-seat RJs (this was true to a lesser extent at ATL, where larger cities like BNA, RDU, and JAX saw plenty of mainline). NW has never hesitated to use the -9s on very short routes.
If DL turns over all of the 'traditional' -9 routes to 70 and 90 seat RJs, then I don't believe there's any place in the fleet for the -9. However, DL management is probably too shrewd to do that as long as the -9s have life left in them. A D95 isn't the most efficient aircraft for DTW-FNT, but it's not much less efficient than a 319 or CR9, and ownership costs are much, much lower.
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 61): The -50 offers a better CASM than the -30 or -40 mainly due to its larger capacity.
I was thinking more about this fact, which is true with respect to larger fleet types too, and I wonder whether we're going to start seeing 319s on routes where the 319's range is actually needed. I can't think of any NW routes where the 320 doesn't have the range but the 319 does, but there is certainly some flying ex-ATL and JFK where the 319 might be a better fit than the 738 or the 752.
Of course, as has been discussed above, the runway performance of the 319 might also be helpful at SLC.
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 69, posted (9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6021 times:
Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 72): Has anyone realized that compensateme has stopped contributing? I think given excess capacity in the market currently, it's very unrealistic for any airline to go out and acquire more airplanes just because they have low acquisition costs.
The point of getting more 90s is to cut more CRJ routes out of SLC. they are not looking at them to expand but look to bring more mainline into SLC which will also be able to cut some flights. It would also mean they can bring more 737s out of the west and back to the east to replace more M88s. So they are kind of killing two birds with one stone. Get more RJs out and getting older 88s replaced. Fact is if Delta doesn't get more 90s then they will have to replace the 16 they have now. The fleet is to small to keep if they don't add.
This is why I said they may order more 738s to replace the 16 M90s. They way I look at it is Delta will or has sat down and said "Ok is it better to buy more used 90s and put the money into them to make bring them up to what we want or is it cheaper in the LONG RUN to replace the 16 90s with 16 737s new from Boeing." The answer to this question I guess we shall find out in march.
How replacing the 9s got into this thread I have no idea.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 70, posted (9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5993 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 74): Fact is if Delta doesn't get more 90s then they will have to replace the 16 they have now. The fleet is to small to keep if they don't add.
Why? It seems to have worked well to this point. If it didn't, the first 16 738s on property could have replaced the M90s.
For whatever reason, DL is more comfortable than many airlines with small fleets and subfleets; they had just 8 777s for quite a while. They also have an orphan subfleet of 7 763ERs (the 6 -3P6s and the 1 -324).
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 71, posted (9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5984 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 75): Why? It seems to have worked well to this point. If it didn't, the first 16 738s on property could have replaced the M90s.
Becuase it is costing them to much.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 75): They also have an orphan subfleet of 7 763ERs (the 6 -3P6s and the 1 -324).
Why are the two different? The M90 is basically an M88 with different engines. The -3P6s are 763ERs with different engines (though, IIRC, the difference between the C2B4 engines on those 6 aircraft and the C2B6F engines on 1602-1613, 169, and 1701-1708 are paper only).
MD-90 From United States, joined Jan 2000, 7402 posts, RR: 18 Reply 73, posted (9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5718 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 75): For whatever reason, DL is more comfortable than many airlines with small fleets and subfleets; they had just 8 777s for quite a while. They also have an orphan subfleet of 7 763ERs (the 6 -3P6s and the 1 -324).
Perhaps this is due to the in-house capabilities of Delta TechOps.
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13436 posts, RR: 14 Reply 75, posted (9 months 15 hours ago) and read 5197 times:
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 78): Perhaps this is due to the in-house capabilities of Delta TechOps.
I think that's at least part of it, though OTOH we've seen another operator with a decent MRO (AA) move toward a much more streamlined fleet over the past 5-10 years.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 76, posted (9 months 15 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 80): operator with a decent MRO (AA) move toward a much more streamlined fleet over the past 5-10 years.
Which wasn't necessarily a good idea. In my opinion, AA made a big mistake in dumping the Reno Air MD-90s and TWA 717s while also dumpimg F100s. This put them in a rather precarious situation when oil spiked and I would guess that they are still vulnerable. AA made a bigger mistake in buying TW, but that's another thread entirely. DL has a lot more flexibility and can protect itself from the market a lot better.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Okie73 From United States, joined Mar 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (9 months 15 hours ago) and read 5198 times:
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 69): The pilot fences do not come down until 5 years after SOC is granted so the clock has not begun yet. We'll see what DL does with WB orders soon.
just to be clear, there are only fences on the 777 and 747. No fences for any other equipment (except the 787 which isn't here yet and won't be for a while)
United1 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 3112 posts, RR: 4 Reply 81, posted (9 months 14 hours ago) and read 5022 times:
Quoting CokePopper (Reply 84): Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 79):
It will be a win-win-win for three party's and a loss for two.
win for Boeing,GE and Embraer? Loss for Airbus? I need help here
It is a little hard to read between the lines when there is only one line
I thought there was a comment on an investor call some time ago that outside of what was ordered DL didn't have plans to take delivery of any new (or new to DL) planes for at least the next few years.
Sectflyer From United States, joined Oct 2008, 164 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (9 months 13 hours ago) and read 4944 times:
I will not fly on a RJ from PVD to ATL period. BDL is about an extra 15 minutes for me to drive and I do it to avoid the iron maiden! Bring back mainline equipment to PVD please!
Are they going to wait until the pilot fences come down? It seems like getting 773s would make more sense once they don't have to have a DL 777 pilot group and a NW one.
This is what I think about that. DL has always been a TWO engine Airline, in the 70's,80's and 90's we did have 747-200, DC-10's from Wester and L1011's. All of those airplanes have been retyred, I think DL will keep the 747-400 for five or ten years max and replace them with 777-300ERs, is just a matter of time
VictorKilo From United States, joined Jul 2006, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 85, posted (9 months 10 hours ago) and read 4560 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73): I was thinking more about this fact, which is true with respect to larger fleet types too, and I wonder whether we're going to start seeing 319s on routes where the 319's range is actually needed. I can't think of any NW routes where the 320 doesn't have the range but the 319 does, but there is certainly some flying ex-ATL and JFK where the 319 might be a better fit than the 738 or the 752.
We've already seen a bit of that - there's now a NW 319 on LAX-TPA.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73): Of course, as has been discussed above, the runway performance of the 319 might also be helpful at SLC
I've always thought that the M90 would make a lot of sense at MSP, given its central location. The edges of the North American continent - BOS, MIA, CUN, SAN, LAX, SFO, YVR - are all within the M90's range from MSP. We could see M90's replace some 319 at MSP, with those 319 moving to SLC and/or being used to replace 738's or 752's on transcon flying from LAX, JFK, and ATL.
FFlyerWorld From United States, joined Apr 2008, 236 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (9 months 9 hours ago) and read 4448 times:
It's obvious from looking at a few schedule changes upcoming in April - that Delta is wasting NO time in moving aircraft around to best suite their operational needs. Take a look at NWA.com beginnin April 01 2009 between FLL and LGA. Who would have ever thought that we would see this on NWA operated A319 equipment with no Delta mainline?
Stay tuned for more VERY interesting changes! By the way anyone take notice that ATL - FCO is going to an NWA A 330-300 in Apirl versus original announcement for June I believe? Where is the B747-400 that gets in from NRT in May going to be flying after arrival in ATL ? Wonder is they will use this for domestic to DTW or MSP for repositioning or what?? Makes no sense to sit in ATL for nearly 24 hours.
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 88, posted (9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4149 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 86): I thought there was a comment on an investor call some time ago that outside of what was ordered DL didn't have plans to take delivery of any new (or new to DL) planes for at least the next few years.
no large ordered but DL will take 8 77Ls 3 73Gs 2 73H at least.
I'm sure of these two. look for atleast 2 more 777s ordered. 2010 slots. 777-232LRs.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 89): I wouldn't count on it. But I trust him
Plus its no fun to just tell everyone. Better to make people wait and drop little hints.
My guesses are: Boeing China Southern and China Eastern. lossers Airbus and Rolls
Even though IMHO Boeing is the only one that can really be hurt. AB would love more orders but i don't see them couting on anything where Boeing is counting on 737/787/777
Pbiflyer From United States, joined Apr 2004, 181 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (9 months 5 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 91): Stay tuned for more VERY interesting changes!
How is this for interesting. Look at PBI - BDL in May. Normally one DL M88 flight per day, but in May there is a flight added in the evening using NW 319 equipement. The DL flight and NW flights both show in the schedule portion of Delta.com, but you can only reserve the DL flight. NWA.com has to be used to book the evening flight using NW metal.
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 90, posted (9 months 5 hours ago) and read 3998 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 91): Wonder is they will use this for domestic to DTW or MSP for repositioning or what?? Makes no sense to sit in ATL for nearly 24 hours.
There will probably be something else. The 744 is scheduled to arrive ATL at 1445 from NRT. The HNL departure is scheduled for 1015. 19 hrs. is a long time to have an aircraft sitting somewhere, although it happens in S. America every day.
On the reverse routing, the 744 arrives from HNL at 0535 and departs for NRT at 1420.
The NRT 744 does not begin until May 4 so for April the 744 arrives ATL from HNL at 0535 and leaves back to HNL at 1015 which is a somewhat reasonable ground time.
Interesting though, that the ATL-NRT 744 was originally announced to begin on June 1 is now moved up to May 4. The ATL-FCO and ATL-LGW A333 also now start April 1. I believe these were also originally announced to begin in June.
Dalmd88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1986 posts, RR: 13 Reply 93, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3445 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96):
Quoting Planefxr (Reply 92):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 77):
The M90 is basically an M88 with different engines.
There are more dissimilarities than just engines.
...and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
The dissim with the MD90 is way more than the 763-3P6ER. The MD90 has a completly different electrical system. It doesn't use a CSD/Gen mounted on the engine. It has this funky variable speed system that is actually in the bag bin tunnels. There also is a different APU. It isn't used in any other DL aircraft. It also is a different type rating for pilots than the MD88 so there are crew issues.
In short we have been told either we get more or they go away.
Slcdeltarumd11 From United States, joined Jan 2004, 493 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3366 times:
How fuel efficient are the MD-90s?
I cant imagine DL wanting more aircraft but it could make sense if they can loose some less fuel efficient aircraft. How does it compare to the MD-88, and CRJ in fuel economy per passenger?
about the same as the A320s.....the 90s are a good plane the problem DL has with them is the lack of transcon range.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96): and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
yes they dont have the same config as the 323ERs but other than that they are about the same. Same crews which is they big deal. DL wouldn't have gotten them if they where like the 90s are to the 88s.
Just like the exTWA and ATA 75s are have things that are not the same as the DL birds but if they where as off as the 90 is to the 88 then DL wouldn't have gotten them.
Planefxr From United States, joined Apr 2008, 416 posts, RR: 0 Reply 96, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3130 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96): ...and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
The differences on 767 fleet are minor in most cases and do not include major systems such as generator systems, primary flight controls, interphone/communications, autothrottles and entertainment systems just to mention a few differences that are present on the MD-88/90. The whole thought process that MD-90's are just MD-88's is just not true. Hence management's stance on 16 frames is just to expensive to operate, if they were just a bunch of 88's this would not matter. DL is going to add 3 from Hello Air Lines fairly soon and 16 more from China at a later date. The price is too good to turn down, all for the cost of about 2 brand new 737-800's plus the cost of some mods.
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 97, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3130 times:
Quoting Planefxr (Reply 101): Hence management's stance on 16 frames is just to expensive to operate, if they were just a bunch of 88's this would not matter. DL is going to add 3 from Hello Air Lines fairly soon and 16 more from China at a later date. The price is too good to turn down, all for the cost of about 2 brand new 737-800's plus the cost of some mods.
This is what I have been told. I heard When TechOps went to China to look at them they are in ok shape and wouldn't take much down time and money to make them almost the same as the DL M90s. Will DL lease the birds from BCC or buy them?
Sorry, above my pay grade, but I have heard a dollar purchase figure.
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 102): I heard When TechOps went to China to look at them they are in ok shape and wouldn't take much down time and money to make them almost the same as the DL M90s.
Gigneil From United States, joined Nov 2002, 13883 posts, RR: 89 Reply 99, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2893 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15): No. The 73W should only be used where the performance is needed. As such it will remain a relatively small subfleet. Other routes should use the 73H as it has a lower CASM.
The 73G is the code for a 737-700. The 73W and 738 are the appropriate codes for the 737-800.
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37): That would be very nice. If they were to go after more 737s, I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800.
The 73G blows for their network. They don't operate any other planes that small, except for DC-9s, and DL alone hasn't operated plane that small in forever.
Plus, they already have TONS of A319s. I could see the 73G going away entirely.
Also, you're all missing the point. The MD-90s will be practically free. Neither the 73G nor more 738s, 739ERs (which they DEF don't need), or A319 or 20s will be.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States, joined Jan 2002, 4842 posts, RR: 30 Reply 102, posted (8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
The DC-9-50's will be the last of the DC-9's to stay in the fleet. The incremental operating cost of the -50 over the -30/40 is minimal with an additional 15-25 seats. They are also the newer of the -9's. The -9 actually has better operating costs than the A319/A320 on the sub 300 mile routes, and even moreso now that the cost of fuel is down.
DL can't rationalize the 50 seaters as much as they'd like right now due to contracts and leases. They'd love to significantly pare down a lot of 50 seaters but they simply can't right now.
DeltaL1011man From United States, joined Sep 2005, 5106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 103, posted (8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2367 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 99): The 73G blows for their network. They don't operate any other planes that small, except for DC-9s, and DL alone hasn't operated plane that small in forever.
ummm what is forever? They had the 733s(10......see the 10 73Gs now ) and they had 732s for YEARS. the last 732 has only been gone for 4-5 years. Once the 732s left DL has been sayig they want something to replace them but never got around to it. (same with the 125 787s)
funny how a merger will put stuff like this into a full ground stop.
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The only real DC-9 replacement right now is the CRJ1000 and E190/5. You could make an argument for the MD-88 replacing the DC-9-50s, though, and that might happen a bit.
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