FFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 249 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13080 times:
Read this past week that Delta is STILL pondering and supposedly VERY close to sealing a deal to add 20 plus MD-90's to the fleet. This has been talked about for years now but nothing has ever been confirmed. My question is IF they do complete this deal with Boeing Aircraft Leasing for 3 MD-90s's and the others from a Chinese carrier - will they be replacing MD 88's? or will they pull out RJ's and replace with these or what? Anyone with any "inside" information?
There is more speculation found on this link regarding acquistion of MD 90's
1 STT757: This rumor has been popping up for over a year, with current economic conditions leading to a substantial drop in air travel and the integration of th
2 CompensateMe: It makes sense for DL to continue to ponder acquiring used MD-90, as acquisition costs would be relatively low whereas operating costs would be simila
3 CompensateMe: The MD-88 is too big to be a direct DC-9 replacement. And as NW is integrated into DL, a re-fleeting will occur. Projected capacity needs will dictat
4 Evan767: DL wants these MD-90's, I believe, to be based out of SLC. Using these MD-90's would take away most 738's from SLC that fly short-medium haul routes.
5 C5LOAD: They should bring back the MD-11 'cause it looked good and I liked flying on them.
6 Atlwest1: Hehehe yeah I always thought it looked majestic in the DL livery. To bad the plane couldn't have had a tad more legs to it or it might still be there
7 C5LOAD: It could do soooo many of the trans-atlantic routes that DL wants now that they are expanding it, as well as Asia-US routes and InterAsia routes as w
8 Azjubilee: Jeez... here's a thought... why don't they just use what they just got from NWA? One of the major reasons in merging was for the NWA fleet to compleme
9 C767P: I think it was shortly after Delta officially turned down US Airways Anderson had said the MD-90 has a lower operating cost compared to the 738 for D
10 Cadet57: Why would you want to replace the 73H? It's brand new to the fleet and iirc was purchased for thinner trans-con routes as well as SLC routes (correct
11 DELTA7478: I also think they need to get more 737-700's and 800 to replace the old MD-88's and the 737-900ER to start replacing the older 757-200's. I think the
12 PanAm330: I disagree with yours. You'd have them pass up perfectly good, modern and most of all cheap aircraft to add yet another fleet type? That makes no sen
13 STT757: Replace on trans-con routes, not replace from the fleet. The 737-900 offers a lower CASM than the 737-800s which helps especially in markets where th
14 Seemyseems: Will the MD's still be economically sound? Personally I would go for a more modern option, maybe more B737NG's?
15 BMI727: No. The 73W should only be used where the performance is needed. As such it will remain a relatively small subfleet. Other routes should use the 73H
16 TISTPAA727: Isn't that just because it has more seats? If you can't fill up the seats it won't make sense to move up to the 739. Thinking long-term, you are prob
17 1337Delta764: I actually think the 739ER would be a good aircraft to use on ABQ-ATL in the summer. After all, DL has no trouble filling 757s on the route in the su
18 BMI727: Ordering 739ERs makes sense for most of the American legacy carriers as 757s are transitioned to trans-Atlantic flying.
19 TISTPAA727: Good point. For some reason (must be tired) was thinking the 739s would be to upgrade some MD-88 and 738 routes. As a 752 replacement, yes, that would
20 CompensateMe: The MD-90 is of the same generation as the A320 and B737NG families. I explained the advantages in my earlier replies. Why would DL want to acquire B
21 CompensateMe: There's roughly 40 B757 within DL's fleet that will ever fly across the Atlantic. If DL needed additional domestic lift in the sub-200 passenger-mark
22 DELTA7478: I actually think the 739ER would be a good aircraft to use on ABQ-ATL in the summer. After all, DL has no trouble filling 757s on the route in the su
23 BMI727: I'm not an insider but when did this happen? The last movement in DL's 757 fleet (other than the NW acquisition) was that they got and refurbished th
24 WorldTraveler: The A320 and MD90 have almost identical fuel burn stats both per aircraft and per seat. The 738 is slightly higher but its missions are longer and th
25 Papatango: How about some used 777;s, the SQ birds come to mind?
26 CompensateMe: NW is currently operating 45 B752. Last year, 10 were WFU; they were sold last month. They will not return to NW/DL. -- 22 -5500 series (delivered 19
27 Avconsultant: I think people are failing to realize we are in a major economic crisis driven by a failure of the credit market. DL nor any other airline can obtain
28 STT757: Many of those 757s are going to reach 30 years of service in the not too distant future, almost 30 years of back and forth flying between ATL and Flo
29 Enilria: IMHO Delta is in the worst position in the current economic crisis. They have put all (OK, half) their eggs in the international basket and it is look
30 CompensateMe: I posted the age breakdown above; outside three aircraft, the oldest frames won't be 30 for at least six years. Undoubtedly we'll see a number of 757
31 CompensateMe: I don't know how you came up with that (or many other of your) conclusion, but NW's widebody fleet is only 2/3 the size it was pre-SARS and all of DL
32 DeltaL1011man: pull more RJ out (CR2s) and put more 90s in the SLC hub no. The M90s would be used to replace 738s on short hauls out of SLC (the 738s would move to
33 SLCUT2777: I think if there is an aircraft that is slated for the soonest extinction in the DL fleet it will be the NW DC-9. If DL doesn't expand the MD-90 flee
34 DeltaL1011man: As i read into it its said 3 are coming in march My question is where did BCC get 3 M90s from? not sure I'd say long before any AB but if Delta doesn'
35 UpstateDave: How come everyone is calling for more 737NGs? There are more A320 family in the combined fleet than 737s
36 BMI727: That isn't nearly the only consideration. Plus, with a fleet of over 30 or so, fleet commonality isn't as important. Then there is DL's gentlemen's a
37 SLCUT2777: That would be very nice. If they were to go after more 737s, I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800. I do
38 BMI727: I would say just the opposite. DL would want the improved economics that come with the strectched -800. The -700s are best used on routes that requir
39 MCOAviationFan: This was exactly the reason DL gave for purchasing the -700, namely using the fleet to airports where the -800 had performance issues and the 757 was
40 FFlyerWorld: Some updated information on pilot forum site regarding MD 90's ... If Delta can get these birds at a "steal" - why not add 'em to their exisiting 16 i
41 1337Delta764: I wonder, if DL buys the MD-90s from China Southern or China Eastern, will DL add IFE to them? Unlike DL's MD-90s, the China Southern/Eastern MD-90s a
42 CompensateMe: And you don't think that DL, now the world's largest airline with the world's third largest Airbus fleet, couldn't get as good of a deal -- if not be
43 Mir: The only real DC-9 replacement right now is the CRJ1000 and E190/5. You could make an argument for the MD-88 replacing the DC-9-50s, though, and that
44 Cubsrule: DL would be foolish to base any projections on sub-$60 oil, though. It's not going to stay there forever. Could you maybe cite some numbers? The 739
45 Web: Why is this? I would think the -30s would be more attractive since they fill the gap between the CR9/E75 and the A319. What makes -50s so desirable?
46 3holeflyer: As demand goes up & down, is there any chance that DL will assign DC-9's routes that are not the NW regulars routes? To replace a 319 on a weak route
47 Gsosbee: Interesting discussion on the DC-9's and on a like for like basis the -9 cannot match a newer airplane. However, the -9's are paid for. That is a BIG
48 Mir: But it's the only plus. Right now, with fuel prices where they are, the DC-9s are fine. But should fuel go up again like it did over the summer, the
49 DeltaL1011man: Because Delta can get a fleet of 60 738s by 2015. nope it'll be more 800s if they replace the 90s they will go for the a/c around the smae size. more
50 Cubsrule: Fuel price volatility is exactly why it's nice to have the -9s around, though. Because they're owned, they're an excellent source of variable capacit
51 CompensateMe: The projections were based upon $75. Sorry, but it'd be foolish to build a business model upon any higher amount. The network carrier concept that's
52 Cubsrule: You have to build a business model based on some number. That's why most airlines pay people a lot of money to attempt to forecast oil prices. And yo
53 CompensateMe: Are you arguing with yourself? DL built its forecasts on $75. I'm amused; I work in the industry and know first hand the effects of high oil prices -
54 WESTERN737800: I dont think DL will get too many new 737s or 319/320s in the near future. If they can get the M90s at a decent price they should do it. They could pu
55 AvConsultant: I remember when the MD-90 rumor popped up a year or so ago. One of the rumor to go along with this was they would be based in CVG. Any thoughts where
56 DeltaL1011man: t6hat is due to them opening a DALPA in CVG(or did or was going to) CRJ routes in SLC. One would think if they want to go to SLC they would.
57 MCOAviationFan: The -50 offers a better CASM than the -30 or -40 mainly due to its larger capacity. I agree. The questions are at what yield could you fill the airpl
58 DeltaL1011man: more like 12 months. IIRC thats when DL's options start to pick up again. DL can get 14 737NGs next year. They already have 2 ordered as 800s but the
59 Seemyseems: Does NW have some outstanding A330 orders? If DL want to expand their long haul netowork, they could order more B777's or maybe some B777-300's. But N
60 MCOAviationFan: Stay tuned. You may hear something from DL soon.
61 Cubsrule: Does DL need more 773/744 sized aircraft? Honest question... I don't know that I have a good answer.
62 MCOAviationFan: DL is looking at their WB fleet for future Asian expansion (economic recovery) and fleet replacement (747-400).
63 Cubsrule: Are they going to wait until the pilot fences come down? It seems like getting 773s would make more sense once they don't have to have a DL 777 pilot
64 MCOAviationFan: The pilot fences do not come down until 5 years after SOC is granted so the clock has not begun yet. We'll see what DL does with WB orders soon.
65 Cubsrule: OTOH, there's some lead time between the time at which a decision is made and the time when the aircraft start arriving on property. We're probably l
67 Hjulicher: Has anyone realized that compensateme has stopped contributing? I think given excess capacity in the market currently, it's very unrealistic for any a
68 Cubsrule: I alluded to this previously, but a lot of the answer to that question depends on the stage length we're talking about; the operating cost gap is muc
69 DeltaL1011man: The point of getting more 90s is to cut more CRJ routes out of SLC. they are not looking at them to expand but look to bring more mainline into SLC w
70 Cubsrule: Why? It seems to have worked well to this point. If it didn't, the first 16 738s on property could have replaced the M90s. For whatever reason, DL is
71 DeltaL1011man: Becuase it is costing them to much. but are 763ERs
72 Cubsrule: Why are the two different? The M90 is basically an M88 with different engines. The -3P6s are 763ERs with different engines (though, IIRC, the differe
73 MD-90: Perhaps this is due to the in-house capabilities of Delta TechOps.
74 Alitalia744: Movement on fleet will come within the next few months of the t's and i's get crossed and dotted correctly. It will be a win-win-win for three party's
75 Cubsrule: I think that's at least part of it, though OTOH we've seen another operator with a decent MRO (AA) move toward a much more streamlined fleet over the
76 BMI727: Which wasn't necessarily a good idea. In my opinion, AA made a big mistake in dumping the Reno Air MD-90s and TWA 717s while also dumpimg F100s. This
77 Okie73: just to be clear, there are only fences on the 777 and 747. No fences for any other equipment (except the 787 which isn't here yet and won't be for a
78 Cubsrule: I agree that DL has taken the wiser path, which is why I can't see them disposing of the M90s any time soon.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5 Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5408 times:
Quoting CokePopper (Reply 84): Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 79):
It will be a win-win-win for three party's and a loss for two.
win for Boeing,GE and Embraer? Loss for Airbus? I need help here
It is a little hard to read between the lines when there is only one line
I thought there was a comment on an investor call some time ago that outside of what was ordered DL didn't have plans to take delivery of any new (or new to DL) planes for at least the next few years.
Sectflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 200 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5330 times:
I will not fly on a RJ from PVD to ATL period. BDL is about an extra 15 minutes for me to drive and I do it to avoid the iron maiden! Bring back mainline equipment to PVD please!
Are they going to wait until the pilot fences come down? It seems like getting 773s would make more sense once they don't have to have a DL 777 pilot group and a NW one.
This is what I think about that. DL has always been a TWO engine Airline, in the 70's,80's and 90's we did have 747-200, DC-10's from Wester and L1011's. All of those airplanes have been retyred, I think DL will keep the 747-400 for five or ten years max and replace them with 777-300ERs, is just a matter of time
VictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4946 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73): I was thinking more about this fact, which is true with respect to larger fleet types too, and I wonder whether we're going to start seeing 319s on routes where the 319's range is actually needed. I can't think of any NW routes where the 320 doesn't have the range but the 319 does, but there is certainly some flying ex-ATL and JFK where the 319 might be a better fit than the 738 or the 752.
We've already seen a bit of that - there's now a NW 319 on LAX-TPA.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73): Of course, as has been discussed above, the runway performance of the 319 might also be helpful at SLC
I've always thought that the M90 would make a lot of sense at MSP, given its central location. The edges of the North American continent - BOS, MIA, CUN, SAN, LAX, SFO, YVR - are all within the M90's range from MSP. We could see M90's replace some 319 at MSP, with those 319 moving to SLC and/or being used to replace 738's or 752's on transcon flying from LAX, JFK, and ATL.
FFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 249 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4834 times:
It's obvious from looking at a few schedule changes upcoming in April - that Delta is wasting NO time in moving aircraft around to best suite their operational needs. Take a look at NWA.com beginnin April 01 2009 between FLL and LGA. Who would have ever thought that we would see this on NWA operated A319 equipment with no Delta mainline?
Stay tuned for more VERY interesting changes! By the way anyone take notice that ATL - FCO is going to an NWA A 330-300 in Apirl versus original announcement for June I believe? Where is the B747-400 that gets in from NRT in May going to be flying after arrival in ATL ? Wonder is they will use this for domestic to DTW or MSP for repositioning or what?? Makes no sense to sit in ATL for nearly 24 hours.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5565 posts, RR: 3 Reply 88, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4535 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 86): I thought there was a comment on an investor call some time ago that outside of what was ordered DL didn't have plans to take delivery of any new (or new to DL) planes for at least the next few years.
no large ordered but DL will take 8 77Ls 3 73Gs 2 73H at least.
I'm sure of these two. look for atleast 2 more 777s ordered. 2010 slots. 777-232LRs.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 89): I wouldn't count on it. But I trust him
Plus its no fun to just tell everyone. Better to make people wait and drop little hints.
My guesses are: Boeing China Southern and China Eastern. lossers Airbus and Rolls
Even though IMHO Boeing is the only one that can really be hurt. AB would love more orders but i don't see them couting on anything where Boeing is counting on 737/787/777
Pbiflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 182 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4418 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 91): Stay tuned for more VERY interesting changes!
How is this for interesting. Look at PBI - BDL in May. Normally one DL M88 flight per day, but in May there is a flight added in the evening using NW 319 equipement. The DL flight and NW flights both show in the schedule portion of Delta.com, but you can only reserve the DL flight. NWA.com has to be used to book the evening flight using NW metal.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5565 posts, RR: 3 Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4384 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 91): Wonder is they will use this for domestic to DTW or MSP for repositioning or what?? Makes no sense to sit in ATL for nearly 24 hours.
MCOAviationFan From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 92, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4073 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 91): Where is the B747-400 that gets in from NRT in May going to be flying after arrival in ATL ?
There will probably be something else. The 744 is scheduled to arrive ATL at 1445 from NRT. The HNL departure is scheduled for 1015. 19 hrs. is a long time to have an aircraft sitting somewhere, although it happens in S. America every day.
On the reverse routing, the 744 arrives from HNL at 0535 and departs for NRT at 1420.
The NRT 744 does not begin until May 4 so for April the 744 arrives ATL from HNL at 0535 and leaves back to HNL at 1015 which is a somewhat reasonable ground time.
Interesting though, that the ATL-NRT 744 was originally announced to begin on June 1 is now moved up to May 4. The ATL-FCO and ATL-LGW A333 also now start April 1. I believe these were also originally announced to begin in June.
Dalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2008 posts, RR: 13 Reply 93, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3831 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96):
Quoting Planefxr (Reply 92):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 77):
The M90 is basically an M88 with different engines.
There are more dissimilarities than just engines.
...and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
The dissim with the MD90 is way more than the 763-3P6ER. The MD90 has a completly different electrical system. It doesn't use a CSD/Gen mounted on the engine. It has this funky variable speed system that is actually in the bag bin tunnels. There also is a different APU. It isn't used in any other DL aircraft. It also is a different type rating for pilots than the MD88 so there are crew issues.
In short we have been told either we get more or they go away.
Slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 538 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3752 times:
How fuel efficient are the MD-90s?
I cant imagine DL wanting more aircraft but it could make sense if they can loose some less fuel efficient aircraft. How does it compare to the MD-88, and CRJ in fuel economy per passenger?
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5565 posts, RR: 3 Reply 95, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3717 times:
Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 98): In short we have been told either we get more or they go away.
about the same as the A320s.....the 90s are a good plane the problem DL has with them is the lack of transcon range.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96): and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
yes they dont have the same config as the 323ERs but other than that they are about the same. Same crews which is they big deal. DL wouldn't have gotten them if they where like the 90s are to the 88s.
Just like the exTWA and ATA 75s are have things that are not the same as the DL birds but if they where as off as the 90 is to the 88 then DL wouldn't have gotten them.
Planefxr From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 418 posts, RR: 0 Reply 96, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3516 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96): ...and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
The differences on 767 fleet are minor in most cases and do not include major systems such as generator systems, primary flight controls, interphone/communications, autothrottles and entertainment systems just to mention a few differences that are present on the MD-88/90. The whole thought process that MD-90's are just MD-88's is just not true. Hence management's stance on 16 frames is just to expensive to operate, if they were just a bunch of 88's this would not matter. DL is going to add 3 from Hello Air Lines fairly soon and 16 more from China at a later date. The price is too good to turn down, all for the cost of about 2 brand new 737-800's plus the cost of some mods.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5565 posts, RR: 3 Reply 97, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3516 times:
Quoting Planefxr (Reply 101): Hence management's stance on 16 frames is just to expensive to operate, if they were just a bunch of 88's this would not matter. DL is going to add 3 from Hello Air Lines fairly soon and 16 more from China at a later date. The price is too good to turn down, all for the cost of about 2 brand new 737-800's plus the cost of some mods.
This is what I have been told. I heard When TechOps went to China to look at them they are in ok shape and wouldn't take much down time and money to make them almost the same as the DL M90s. Will DL lease the birds from BCC or buy them?
Sorry, above my pay grade, but I have heard a dollar purchase figure.
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 102): I heard When TechOps went to China to look at them they are in ok shape and wouldn't take much down time and money to make them almost the same as the DL M90s.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 13906 posts, RR: 88 Reply 99, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3279 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15): No. The 73W should only be used where the performance is needed. As such it will remain a relatively small subfleet. Other routes should use the 73H as it has a lower CASM.
The 73G is the code for a 737-700. The 73W and 738 are the appropriate codes for the 737-800.
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37): That would be very nice. If they were to go after more 737s, I'd say they'll go more after the smaller 700 rather than the larger trans-con 800.
The 73G blows for their network. They don't operate any other planes that small, except for DC-9s, and DL alone hasn't operated plane that small in forever.
Plus, they already have TONS of A319s. I could see the 73G going away entirely.
Also, you're all missing the point. The MD-90s will be practically free. Neither the 73G nor more 738s, 739ERs (which they DEF don't need), or A319 or 20s will be.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 13906 posts, RR: 88 Reply 101, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2983 times:
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4922 posts, RR: 27 Reply 102, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2777 times:
The DC-9-50's will be the last of the DC-9's to stay in the fleet. The incremental operating cost of the -50 over the -30/40 is minimal with an additional 15-25 seats. They are also the newer of the -9's. The -9 actually has better operating costs than the A319/A320 on the sub 300 mile routes, and even moreso now that the cost of fuel is down.
DL can't rationalize the 50 seaters as much as they'd like right now due to contracts and leases. They'd love to significantly pare down a lot of 50 seaters but they simply can't right now.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5565 posts, RR: 3 Reply 103, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2753 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 99): The 73G blows for their network. They don't operate any other planes that small, except for DC-9s, and DL alone hasn't operated plane that small in forever.
ummm what is forever? They had the 733s(10......see the 10 73Gs now ) and they had 732s for YEARS. the last 732 has only been gone for 4-5 years. Once the 732s left DL has been sayig they want something to replace them but never got around to it. (same with the 125 787s)
funny how a merger will put stuff like this into a full ground stop.
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From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 249 posts, 
...and the 763-3P6ERs and the rest of the fleet also have more dissimilarities than just engines.
From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 1952 posts, 
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