Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Pan Am Was 1st , Virgin You Are 2nd  
User currently offlineBeeweel15 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1753 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16031 times:

I was looking at the Virgin page on FACEBOOK and I came across information on Sir. Richards 8 day trip around the world which will coincide with the launch of the airline V Australia.

As I read I came across this statement :

The 8-day mission will also coincide with the inaugural flight of V Australia – Virgin’s new airline launching on 27th February. The airline will fly between Sydney and LA, and for the first time will allow passengers to fly around the world on the same airline carrier.

For the full page here is the link :

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/inbox/readupdates.php?id=6757437678

Sorry to disappoint you folks at VS but PAN AM did it first. PA-001 and PA-002 went around the world with two 747's, one heading east the other heading west. The routing was as follows

PA-001 - read right
PA-002 - read left

LAX-HNL-NRT-HKG-BKK-DEL-KHI/THR-BEY-IST-FRA-LHR-JFK

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 867 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15947 times:

Air New Zealand also allow you to already fly around the world on the same carrier

LHR-HKG-AKL-LAX-LHR


User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15942 times:

UA also did it at one point in the late 1990s and NZ currently does it.

User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15902 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Beeweel15 (Thread starter):
LAX-HNL-NRT-HKG-BKK-DEL-KHI/THR-BEY-IST-FRA-LHR-JFK

Remember this very well.Was in Beirut when the first human moon landing happened.We did have to wait for the Pan Am flight to arrive so we can see the landing on TV



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15900 times:

United and Pan Am also offered RTW service in the past.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15830 times:

SRB (or one of his minions) lie and the press not challenge him? Nah, this NEVER happens.  Wink

And V Australia is NOT the same carrier as VS, at least not officially. And of course, VX is completely independent, too. We all know that...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15816 times:

Virgin seems to be overlooking Air New Zealand. They fly around the world AKL-LAX-LHR-HKG-AKL. SQ also fly around the world if you overlook the gap between JFK and EWR. And even without those two, there have been quite a few other airlines in the past that flew around the world other than Pan Am. Those that come to mind include BOAC, TWA, Japan Air Lines, Qantas and Air France. I may have missed one or two. I'm not counting airlines that operated the Polar route between Europe and Japan via ANC, as well as via points in Asia, in the days before nonstop Europe-Japan service became feasible.

Quoting Beeweel15 (Thread starter):
Sorry to disappoint you folks at VS but PAN AM did it first. PA-001 and PA-002 went around the world with two 747's, one heading east the other heading west. The routing was as follows

PA-001 - read right
PA-002 - read left

LAX-HNL-NRT-HKG-BKK-DEL-KHI/THR-BEY-IST-FRA-LHR-JFK

Actually, as your routing above indicates, Pan Am for many years didn't fly all the way around the world as they had no traffic rights on US domestic routes (except Hawaii/Alaska/Puerto Rico) so there was a gap between the US east and west coasts. When they started direct service LAX/SFO-LHR in the late 1950s it became possible to fly all the way around the world on Pan Am.


User currently offlineJcavinato From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15707 times:

SQ does it with only EWR-JFK as a missing link.

User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15607 times:



Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 4):
United and Pan Am also offered RTW service in the past.

As well as TWA.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15509 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

actually , as far as I am aware ( other than when QF operated the 'Fiesta route' which I am surprised no one has so far mentioned ) all the offerings prior to NZ offered a service more accurately described as " around half the world " or "around the Northern Hemisphere" rather than around the world , there are , after all , two hemispheres !

Now I realise that some people will say , "so what if they only did one hemisphere, the services crossed every line of meridian " and that is true , but then the same could be said of someone who flew a circle around the North ( or for that matter South ) Pole at a radius of , say , 5 km , but I dont think most people would give such a flight status as 'around the world'



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15492 times:

What a big fib.

He will use a number of different airlines that happen to have the Virgin name in them, but all totally different. The only airline you can fly round the world with and be on the same carrier is of course NZ.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15347 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
actually , as far as I am aware ( other than when QF operated the 'Fiesta route' which I am surprised no one has so far mentioned ) all the offerings prior to NZ offered a service more accurately described as " around half the world " or "around the Northern Hemisphere" rather than around the world , there are , after all , two hemispheres !

The "Fiesta Route" wasn't QF's only around-the-world route. They also operated SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR (the "Southern Cross" route) for quite a few years, combined with the "Kangaroo Route" LHR-SYD via Asia (and of course vice versa in the other direction).The inaugural service to LHR via the USA was in January 1958 using the L1049 Super Constellation until replaced by the 707-138 in September 1959.

I think the "Southern Cross" route to LHR was dropped about the time the 747 replaced the 707 on Transpacific services. QF had (and probably still has) 5th freedom rights on USA-LHR sectors, i.e. HNL-LHR, SFO-LHR, JFK-LHR, but only stopover rights for QF international passengers on the domestic cabotage legs HNL-SFO-JFK.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15348 times:



Quoting LHR380 (Reply 10):
He will use a number of different airlines that happen to have the Virgin name in them, but all totally different.

He only needs 2. VS and VA. But V Australia is not the same carrier as Virgin Atlantic.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15333 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I went around the world - northern and southern hemispheres - on BOAC.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15309 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
The "Fiesta Route" wasn't QF's only around-the-world route.

thanks Viscount , I always forget about the "Southern Cross Route" , I guess it just wasnt as romantic and daft as the "Fiesta route" so that one always sticks in my mind more



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15273 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
SRB (or one of his minions) lie and the press not challenge him? Nah, this NEVER happens.

I would be leaning towards most of the reporters are too young to remember any of it and then don't research facts to see it is currently being done elsewhere.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15228 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
I went around the world - northern and southern hemispheres - on BOAC.

dammit , I always forget about that one as well .

One more round the world including both hemispheres , now that I think of it , didnt UT finally start flying CDG-LAX shortly before they were swallowed by AF ? that was the final gap in their ability to offer a single carrier RTW itinerary , IIRC



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15213 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 16):
One more round the world including both hemispheres , now that I think of it , didnt UT finally start flying CDG-LAX shortly before they were swallowed by AF ?

I flew UTA from Tahiti via Fiji to Noumea. That flight had come from Paris and, after Noumea, was going back to Paris (via SIN perhaps?).

So - yes. RTW.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15214 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
The "Fiesta Route" wasn't QF's only around-the-world route.

thanks Viscount , I always forget about the "Southern Cross Route" , I guess it just wasnt as romantic and daft as the "Fiesta route" so that one always sticks in my mind more

Another fairly unusual around-the-world routing meeting your definition of crossing the Equator was AF for a few years sometime in the late 1960s or early 70s. They operated 707s a couple of times a week on a Paris-Cayenne-Manaus-Lima-Papeete routing. AF also operated Papeete-Tokyo-Paris then.


User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1352 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15216 times:



Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 7):
SQ does it with only EWR-JFK as a missing link.

That doesn't count, in my opinion. EWR-SIN is OVER the world, not around it. Big difference, it you map it out on a globe.


As for Virgin, they're playing a trick with language. "For the first time," as in, "for the first time ON VIRGIN."

Still, they ought to be called out for it.


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15186 times:



Quoting Aviateur (Reply 19):
Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 7):
SQ does it with only EWR-JFK as a missing link.

That doesn't count, in my opinion. EWR-SIN is OVER the world, not around it. Big difference, it you map it out on a globe.

It's probably debatable, but from SIN to EWR, I believe they normally use the traditional transpacific routing, overflying Japan, Alaska and Canada, to benefit from usual tailwinds. From EWR to SIN they're more likely to use the Polar route heading almost due north and near the North Pole and down across Russia and China, which I would agree isn't really around-the-world. However, they also sometimes operate the EWR-SIN nonstop flight on a transatlantic routing crossing Europe and Asia, again probably to benefit from winds. When they do that you could probably consider the SIN-EWR (over Japan/Alaska/Canada) and EWR-SIN (over Europe) as within the more usual RTW definition (and of course when combined with their JFK-FRA-SIN service).


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15143 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Another fairly unusual around-the-world routing meeting your definition of crossing the Equator was AF for a few years sometime in the late 1960s or early 70s. They operated 707s a couple of times a week on a Paris-Cayenne-Manaus-Lima-Papeete routing. AF also operated Papeete-Tokyo-Paris then.

Viscount !! You are a source of absolutely fascinating information - I thought that I had heard of most of the wierd and wonderful Pacific routes over the years but this is an absolute gem , and I never had any idea of its existence .... I was about to ask where you dig these pearls up from , but then I looked at your profile ( damnit , we need a smiley for "I take my hat off to you , sir ! )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1352 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15099 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
It's probably debatable, but from SIN to EWR, I believe they normally use the traditional transpacific routing, overflying Japan, Alaska and Canada, to benefit from usual tailwinds. From EWR to SIN they're more likely to use the Polar route heading almost due north and near the North Pole and down across Russia and China, which I would agree isn't really around-the-world. However, they also sometimes operate the EWR-SIN nonstop flight on a transatlantic routing crossing Europe and Asia, again probably to benefit from winds.

I presume that you're right. But you see my point... Nowadays, with so many ultra long-haul flights operating, it's hard to get a sense of what "around-the-world" really means.


Thanks for the reply, and like Kiwiandrew I was very impressed by your knowledge of the old Air France R-T-W voyage.


Patrick



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14978 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 21):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Another fairly unusual around-the-world routing meeting your definition of crossing the Equator was AF for a few years sometime in the late 1960s or early 70s. They operated 707s a couple of times a week on a Paris-Cayenne-Manaus-Lima-Papeete routing. AF also operated Papeete-Tokyo-Paris then.

I thought that I had heard of most of the wierd and wonderful Pacific routes over the years but this is an absolute gem , and I never had any idea of its existence ....

Found the effective date of AF's LIM-PPT-Tokyo (HND then) route. It was April 1973 (twice a week 707). I don't think LIM-PPT lasted very long, but while it existed you could combine AF's routes to LIM with various stops in South America (also CCS/BOG/UIO), with LIM-PPT-HND, and HND-Paris, all on AF. AF of course also operated Paris-LAX-PPT then which could also be combined with the route via Tokyo in the other direction. At some point AF also dropped Tokyo-PPT which ended their RTW service.


User currently offlineAviators99 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14713 times:

Doesn't NWA do this too?

SEA-AMS-BOM-SEA?

Edited to remove NRT...

[Edited 2009-02-23 20:43:56]

25 Kiwiandrew : are you sure ? I dont remember ever hearing of them operating SEA-BOM - I thought the service went through AMS in both directions - werent they using
26 Aviators99 : I'm talking about now! A330s.
27 Aviators99 : You're right. Their route map shows it as non-stop, but if you click on the link, it does indeed go back to AMS.
28 Malaysia : Did UTA ever fly around the world? I thought they were the only Trans-Pacific Carrier for France that went east bound from Paris to the US.
29 Kiwiandrew : I believe that for a short while during towards the end of their independent existence , not long before they disappeared into AF , they did operate
30 Ikramerica : That is epidemic in journalism. Especially when they WANT to believe what they are being told. Journalists only challenge what contradicts their own
31 Mariner : I flew on them, as noted in #17, across the Pacific. I was in First and the lunch was one of the best meals I've ever had on an airline. mariner
32 Aviators99 : A bunch of people have mentioned journalism, reporters, and lack of fact-checking. But has any news outlet or reporter picked this up? I haven't seen
33 Babybus : Someone from his planning dept probably had to tell him that before the news briefing. I'm not sure I'd want to fly right around the world using just
34 Kiwiandrew : a valid point , but regardless of the fact that this is all based on a single blatantly incorrect video on facebook it has been a really fun thread ,
35 Mandala499 : Well, the SIN-EWR route goes around the world anyways... eastbound! LOL!
36 F27friend : Don't forget that QF operated SYD-NAN-HNL-ACA-BDA-LHR as well. The 2 QF 707s used to cross at JFK. BA (BA591/592) did it with VC-10s MEL-SYD-NAN-HNL-L
37 BrianDromey : I think it usually routes via the pacific as opposed to over the pole due to tailwinds. I have found that if you hand a journalist a ready-written st
38 Post contains links Vhqpa : Actually QF was flying RTW over 50 years ago. Source I also believe this was the first RTW flight on the one carrier. not sure when the likes of PA an
39 LondonCity : Agreed. Also the point with VS' claims is that, in the UK at least, this airline is not offering any sort of a special RTW tariff unlike NZ and, in t
40 PA515 : The QF 'Fiesta Route' was initially SYD-AKL-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-BDA-LHR twice weekly but one of AKL stops was later dropped, so SYD-PPT-ACA-MEX etc. PA515
41 BCAL : I would not take too much notice of what the Bearded One says in his blog; he exaggerates enough in public! If he said "for the first time in a while
42 CYasutomo : When did TWA ever fly around the world? I thought they had never flown trans-Pacific.
43 Post contains links FoxBravo : The routing varies depending on the time of year, and sometimes they use the polar route, but most of the time during the northern winter SQ21/22 is
44 LondonCity : I guess the reader got confused with the RTW fare which TWA used to market from the late 1970s in conjunction with SQ. The idea was that TWA would be
45 Tothestars : By 1969, TWA had surpassed Pan American World Airways as the dominant Atlantic carrier, and in the Transpacific Route Case of 1969, TWA received autho
46 Aviators99 : Slip through to where? No journalist put this in any paper (as far as I can see)--online or offline.
47 BMI727 : There are differences in his airlines. Of course some of this is due to government red tape. I remember seeing a report here in St. Louis when VX cou
48 Isitsafenow : Yep....I remember that. Pan AM for a few years, had a flight that started at JFK and ended up at SFO...or was it LAX? . Let me clarify, it went east
49 Andz : If I recall correctly, going back many many years, every Sunday morning a VC-10 would roar over my house leaving JNB for... Colombo? then to Hong Kon
50 LondonCity : As far as I remember, in the late 1960s there was a BOAC VC-10 which flew from LHR to LAX then on to AKL or SYD with, I think, a stopver in HNL. As f
51 Post contains links BCAL : Have a look at this BOAC route map from the 1970s and you will see there were then several options of flying round the world with the same airline BO
52 Bohica : Back in the early 1970's. I flew on it when I was a child in 1972. The routing went something like this: LAX-JFK-ORY-FCO-ATH-TLV-BOM-BKK-HKG-GUM-HNL-
53 Post contains links N702ML : TWA began around-the-world service on August 1, 1969. From TWA's April 30, 1972 timetable: http://www.departedflights.com/TW043072.html The service w
54 Mariner : Correct? Yes. Chastise? Never. The critical part of the route was trans-Pacific. I left Auckland on a BOAC 707 which flew via NAN and HNL to SFO. At
55 Amciver : I am planning to go RTW later this year with NZ from LHR on a holiday / mileage run with a few nights each in HKG, Auckland and LAX. Can't decide whi
56 Mariner : I'd work backwards. I'd base it on where you want your last stop to be, your "souvenir" stop - HKG for the Asian goodies or LAX for the life-style. I
57 666Wizard : When I was about 10 I had a wonderful Pan Am map booklet that a friends father gave me that showed all of Pan Am's worldwide routes on it; the maps we
58 Jetdeltamsy : I would imagine the article means it will be a "first" for Virgin. TWA also had ATW service back in the 60's......one daily in each direction. not su
59 Kiwiandrew : one possible help to choosing your direction : what are your sleeping patterns like on a/c ? if you go westbound you get two decent length nights ( A
60 Post contains links and images AF Cabin Crew : Ia Orana All ! UTA indeed operated a round the world service. The journey would be on 3 different flight numbers but same carrier. First flight would
61 DavidByrne : Almost, but not quite. It was originally once weekly SYD-NAN-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-BDA-LHR, and then a second weekly was added SYD-AKL-PPT-ACA-MEX, termina
62 Floridaflyboy : Regardless, NW does not fly BOM-SEA, even has a direct flight let alone a non-stop.
63 F27friend : Yes, you are correct.
64 Amciver : i can always sleep on planes but I would like to be awake crossing the international date line as not done a trans pacific before
65 Kiwiandrew : dont worry about that , you will be jolted awake by the bump as you cross it seriously though , in either direction you will go likely cross it in th
66 Asqx : Northwest flight 33. BOM-AMS-SEA. Flight 34 does the reverse. A bit of an odd routing for sure, but it is actually shorter (by a mere 9km) than a rou
67 PA515 : That sounds right. Tried to edit but the 30 mins was up. Around the world on Pan Am was also possible via South America. In June 1971 Daily 707 on PA
68 Post contains links LondonCity : In an earlier posting I mentioned that VS' new RTW routing wouldn't be good value because passengers would have to purchase a collection of one-way ti
69 N702ML : 666Wizard..... You know....I think I actually have the booklet you are talking about. It is about the size of a piece of legal paper.....It is about
70 Viscount724 : I also have one of those. I think my copy dates from the mid-1960s.
71 Viscount724 : Jet lag seems to affect most people less on westbound flights.
72 Viscount724 : TWA's Pacific service would have lasted longer if they'd had rights to serve Japan. Without Japan, there wasn't enough traffic in those days, and TW'
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Was The Last Pan Am Flight You Were On? posted Mon Dec 8 2003 00:10:45 by L1011Lover
What Was Pan Am Clipper Class? posted Sun Jul 6 2008 12:45:32 by SXDFC
How Big Was Pan Am? posted Thu May 3 2007 22:24:54 by Tonytifao
I Bet I Am Having A Better Morning Than You Are! posted Wed Mar 28 2007 17:20:03 by Skaggs
What Was Pan Am II's Strategy? posted Wed May 17 2006 00:10:59 by Kkfla737
Virgin Atlantic: Britains Own Pan Am posted Thu Apr 13 2006 23:08:12 by Ba757gla
Was There Another Pan Am? posted Tue Feb 21 2006 02:52:25 by Phuebner
At It's Peak. How Big Was Pan Am? posted Mon Dec 5 2005 02:30:42 by Aileron11
Was Pan Am Into Railroads? posted Mon Nov 14 2005 04:35:50 by AEroc
Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living posted Sun Oct 30 2005 01:04:08 by Xms3200