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TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4  
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 41548 times:

This is part 4 of the discussion pertaining to the fatal crash of Turkish Airlines flight TK1951 at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport on Wednesday morning local time.

Please continue the discussion here. The previous installments may be found here:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

198 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 41511 times:

Hi everyone, too bad to read about another crash with fatalities, seems to be not a good time for the airlines right now...


I just came from work and i am too tired to read all threads about the crash, i just read the 2nd half of thread 3.

Here are 17 quite good pictures of the crash, don't know if they were posted already (News in German):
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/artic...ecksmaschine-zu-wenig-Kerosin.html


But nevertheless the pics are a good start for thread 4 and show all the damage to the aircraft...


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 41252 times:

Passport-style pictures of the cockpit crew:.

http://static.rp-online.de/layout/fo...Plane_Crash_IST10449a5821e216e.jpg

As far as the cabin crew is concerned - I suppose they were severly injured as passengers are quoted that no cabin crew was coordinating the emergency evacuation after the impact.

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:17:49]

User currently offlineAirxliban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4512 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 41056 times:

I would just like to add my condolences those that have already been mentioned - for the families and friends of the deceased. Deepest sympathies to them as well as to our TK colleagues on this forum.


PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 40990 times:



Quoting Admford (Reply 193):
Is it possible that an autopilot can mistake the location of the runway and think it begins earlier? If so, that could in part explain the plane coming in lower and slower than most other aircraft normally do for that runway.

It is possible (though highly unlikely) for the FMC to be inaccurate. But the aircraft was on an ILS approach, using ground-based naviagation aids (and the autopilot was following those), so assuming that the navaids were correct, they would have taken the airplane all the way to the runway. And no other aircraft reported problems with the navaid signal.

Quoting Spitfire (Reply 198):
Hey guys, do you know that there are FUEL GAUGES in the cockpit, and that those instruments are looked at during the flight ?????????????

Do we know that they were accurate? Sure they're supposed to be looked at during the flight, but do we know that they were looked at during the flight? There are a lot of unknowns here, and they will all be investigated in due time.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSpeedmarque From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 40811 times:

It's just dawned on me that it looks like the damage above the flight deck is due to the nose gear strut!

Now that was a hard landing if true.


User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 940 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 40766 times:

The worst way to start a day  
RIP for all the victims...

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:50:09]

User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3238 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40488 times:

This is very tragic indeed. My condolences to all who lost loved ones in this crash and to everybody at Turkish Airlines. May those who lost their lives rest in peace.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40408 times:

As a pilot in command I won't surely never look at my fuel gauges during a 3 hours flight. Never crosscheck those figures with the one I have on the 'flight planning papers', and of course never calculate the extra fuel I have on board just before the approach phase... just to know how much holding time I have before going to diversion ....


Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40398 times:

So anyone else thinks it can be a severe birdstrike, are they any birds in the area?
Sounds more likely than fuelstarvation?


User currently offlineWhaley From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40343 times:

According to the witness who had entered the plane just after the crash, two survivors complained about bad back problems, which also indicates a very hard 'landing'.

User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40354 times:

http://www.nrc.nl/redactie/foto/vliegtuigongeluk/soundslider.swf

Pic 3 shows the position of the horizontal stabilisers relative to the plane. Pic 10 shows a large crack in the empennage from where the leading edge of the hor stabs would have been, up to the beginning of the tail fin. Violent impact tail down seems extremely likely, as already noted. The tailfin could easily have detached with the hor stabs, not that it would have made any difference.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineDraigonair From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 708 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40219 times:

I live North of the airport and well there is not a unusual activity of large amounts of birds...Any idea what planes landed before?? Wake turbulence may play a role?

Nick



cheers
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1871 posts, RR: 41
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40223 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

There are birds in the area yes, I might add there can be quite a lot.. But lets wait for the results (it can be a long wait)


Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3587 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 40220 times:

Why don't we all wait whether the flight recorder will confirm fuel starvation or not...

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26974 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39925 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 2):
Passport-style pictures of the cockpit crew:.

Tragic , RIP  tombstone 

At least there was no fire and hopefully this will aid the investigators to try work out what happened.


User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39828 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 14):
Why don't we all wait whether the flight recorder will confirm fuel starvation or not...

That's a very good idea (one of the best I've read here today !)

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:38:34]


Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineFlanders From Belgium, joined Oct 2008, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39816 times:

My prayers go to the victims and their families.

This is one weird crash...


User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 940 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39751 times:

http://www.airporthaber.com/v3/readnews.php?newid=11457

According to this site, the aircraft was loaded around 9,6 tones of fuel at IST. Also it is told that on IST-AMS route usually the planes are loaded between 7-9 tones of fuel.


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1871 posts, RR: 41
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39740 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 18):

Because that is HIS opinion (not nessecarily mine)

News here is reporting that both engines were "shut down prior to landing"
There isnt a SPOT of evidence to support that statement! What is wrong with the media!



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineCmoltay From Turkey, joined Jun 2007, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39745 times:

"One survivor has told on the Turkish evening news that he saw black smoke out from one of the engines and the engine departed the plane and flew forward..."  Confused

Realising this is a most unreliable account and may have happened after the plane hit the ground or could purely be the imagination of the witness, I want to ask, if what he has told is true, would an engine flying forward point to an airborne reverser deployment? Would that be possible?

Regards,


User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39455 times:



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 22):
One survivor has told on the Turkish evening news that he saw black smoke out from one of the engines and the engine departed the plane and flew forward..."

still, if an engine left the wing...no problems...doesn't explain the low speed state...the horizontal stab is about 150-200 meters back from the fuselage, looks like a very very slow speed drop/impact...
the flaps are at 40, which suggests the approach was indeed dual engine...as all other checklists require flaps 15 on single engine



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39287 times:

Quote:
You are assuming all the fuel was loaded as indicated. It has happened in the past where a mistake was made and too little fuel was loaded.

If fuel was the issue, that wasn't dropping down like it did. It was giving problem before of it.

And if it was beginning there to have fuel problem, Im not sure that it would make to the airport,
but that wasn't going to come down like it did.

I can assume it's been a series of concurrent causes, not just one. The airplane stalled, lost trust, and came down nose up, too close to the rwy treshold (and possibly obstacles) and too low - as already said - for some corrective actions to be taken effectively.

This doesn't sound at all as a fuel issue to me... (I mean fuel presence or qty, not fuel starvation/contamination/icing/etc) An expert pilot can tell if the autopilot was still engaged at the time, at a power loss it would have been trying to pull up instead of .. can't say the english term, anyway "push down" to gain airspeed. Anyhow if they stalled - speed was too low. Maybe too low above flight idle ? Im sure this will come out very soon.

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:47:39]

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 39292 times:



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 18):
Do you see anywhere in my posts, where i claim to be a spokesman for my airline? no...you don't so why even bother say something really really pointless?

I think that the point that he's trying to make is that although it's true that you've never CLAIMED to be an official spokesperson for your airline, your comments might be PERCEIVED by some as "official" since you work for the airline, even though they're just your personal opinions and/or beliefs. Many companies (and I certainly can't say with respect to yours) have policies concerning employee comments on such matters, and some of them can be rather Draconian with respect to infractions to whatever company policy is in place.

Check six!  Wink


User currently offlineWhaley From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 42463 times:

Dutch press conference:
confirmed that all victims including crew and passengers are taken out of the aircraft
there will be no official confirmation of victims' identities yet.
still talking about 9 deaths although on twitter I read of a tenth who died at the AMC hospital.


25 OA260 : Hmm I guess its not impossible . ----------------- New conference in AMS now. Tomorrow they will be able to give more details of nationalities etc..
26 N83SF : My condolences to those affected by this crash. Seeing as this is an American made airplane, does anybody know if the NTSB is going to be assisting in
27 CrimsonNL : Press conference: Over 750 people were working on the crash. All people have been removed from the AC. Edit: I see Whaley beat me to it with the news.
28 Cmoltay : I was meaning to ask if this could be one of the by-results of a certain failure which put the aircraft in the state it was. Just to get some idea ab
29 Pilotaydin : well then, so much for aviation enthusiast website...if people on here were truely fans of aviation, we wouldn't even bother talk about this crap...
30 OA260 : Media asked was this a test flight with the 3rd pilot. The police said they cant comment on that .
31 Alessandro : OK, dare to guess what kind, seagulls, swane or goose? Do they flock onto farmland to look for food like worms?
32 Post contains links OPNLguy : Yes, they will. SOP... NTSB ADVISORY ************************************************************ National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC
33 AndrewUber : It is bizarre how the winglets are both chopped in half. Unless this is due to severe downward force on impact (which I would have thought would break
34 CrimsonNL : there are a lot of birds, Im no expert but did spent some time with the AMS Bird control. There are a lot of small birds as well, Ducks, Blackbirds,
35 OPNLguy : I'm sorry if that's your reaction (and it's obviously your choice or not), but Anet's "officiality" or not, what you're dealing with here is REALITY
36 Ikramerica : I don't disagree at all. I was merely commenting on the claim that because the flight was not delayed, there had to be enough fuel and that there hav
37 DeltaWings : another one of these "plunging short of runway" accidents, just a couple of weeks ofter the Colgan Air incident...weired
38 Jcf5002 : Not sure if it's been discussed yet, but does anyone have any idea why both winglet tips snapped off at a similar location? The g-forces of impact wer
39 Robcol99 : With regards to fuel starvation, At least we heard three survivors say the same thing on various Turkish TV this afternoon. They were in final approac
40 Pilotaydin : point taken...BUT....I make the points that everyone else makes on here...and if a journalist wants to manipulate that...he'd have to find a damn det
41 Gorgos : Hey Pilotaydin, Great to have you on this site and reading your interesting posts. Keep up the good work! J
42 BMI727 : I have no data to the contrary, but I should remind everyone that non-aviation eyewitnesses are not always reliable. Where did this come from. I am n
43 Post contains links OA260 : Richard Quest now reporting on CNN. He is giving www.twitter.com a plug and telling people what things and quotes have been posted on there. Also to d
44 OPNLguy : Hope so!
45 Alessandro : Yes, I agree, fuelstarvation seem unlikely, my first guess would be birdstrike, second guess would be accidental autoreverse like the Lauda Air one.
46 Robcol99 : Again, they are the survivors of the crash, not just eyewitnesses. There was a discussion here about fuel starvation, but numerous people saying that
47 Post contains links Gorgos : Click to play, interesting aerial video. One can see the large area with debris. http://www.nos.nl/nosjournaal/artike...9_crash_schiphol_luchtbeelden.
48 Pilotaydin : That's right they're in the landing config sir
49 Post contains links and images PW100 : Note the location of the horizontal stabelizer . . . Click here for footage. Regards, PW100
50 4holer : Great. Point taken. Here's your cookie. Can you kindly quit needling him now?
51 SeeTheWorld : You've made your point. Now give it a rest! While it's always a good idea to "cover your ass," Pilotaydin is clearly an adult and is much more aware
52 United787 : First off, my prayers to all of the victims and their families. In reading the entire discussion in regards to Pilotaydin, it seems to me that most of
53 Matheus : I'm sorry to, but let me especulate too. Maybe an error on the load or on the load sheet made the crew to calculate a slower approach speed that was s
54 Commander_Rabb : Pilotaydin, no harm intended. Again its a tragic day. Just looking out for what is right. Condolences. It cannot be an easy day at your airline.
55 Gokmengs : First of all my condolences to anyone affected by this accident. This is sad really, TK has been on an amazing positive news roll. I hope they can ide
56 Alessandro : Yes, and Boeing and the engine manufacturer (GE I think?).
57 Robffm2 : Please don't leave this discussion. I think your comments here are very interesting and are certainly giving a lot of insight. As long as you don't c
58 Gorgos : If its so horrible to read Pilotaydin´s statements, one can always limit himself to CNN and read their reports about A380´s blowing up midair today
59 Post contains links Alessandro : Yes, it´s possible, has happen once before AFAIK with a Boeing 767, http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19910526-0
60 Post contains links L4DashTrash : Wow that had to have been a hell of an impact, I know you have noticed the seats, but look through the windows the internal cabin paneling appears to
61 OA260 : Very true . I agree I hope Pilotaydin does not leave the thread ------------------- Richard Quest asked Kieran Daly if he gave him a ticket on TK to
62 Commander_Rabb : Imagine that!!! LOL (Shudders at the thought)
63 Pilotaydin : How do we know that's really Quest with that user name ?
64 Admford : Thrust reversers would cause the plane to pitch down, not up, due to their placement and quick loss of speed. Also since the plane crashed belly down
65 Cmoltay : " target=_blank>http://aviation-safety.net/database/...526-0 But in that case the airborne deployment of the reverser does not cause the engine to se
66 Alessandro : Admford, but if one engine would go full autoreverse and be torn off the wing while the airplane still was flying like Lauda Air?
67 United787 : I noticed this as well! Do we know what elevation they were at when things went wrong and the plane "fell"?
68 Alessandro : You quoted the wrong user, since it only happen once AFAIK on a different airframe Boeing 767 (same engine configuration at least) how do we know tha
69 Post contains images PW100 : Crash location: Crashplaats = crash location. Note that label [A9] is incorrectly placed. A9 highway is between crash location and runway. I believe i
70 Admford : Airspeed would be key. The Lauda Air was just after take off and at full power. While the 737-800 would be travelling at a relatively low speed and a
71 OPNLguy : Sorry, but I bailed out of this aspect of the thread back in reply #48. Dead issue AFAIC...
72 Viscount724 : The engine maker, CFM International, is a 50-50 joint venture of GE in the U.S. and Snecma in France. CFM56 engines are assembled in both the U.S. an
73 AustrianZRH : The arrow starts at the displaced threshold. Maybe it's just that difference. Or are you basing the distance on that map as well?
74 PW100 : Both. The treshold displacement is around 500m.
75 GlobeEx : Picture 10 surely is evidence to me that this engine wasn't running anymore on impact as only the lower blades are proper damaged. GlobeEx
76 Semsem : Alessandro yes there are birds in the area. About 20 years ago I was on a KLM 747 taking off for New York. After a few minutes we hit birds and had to
77 Cmoltay : Sorry about the wrong quote... The accident investigation report seems to be clear about the issue, but you're right, that report is based on a const
78 Logos : Thanks, you answered my question from earlier. Cheers, Dave in Orlando
79 OA260 : Thanks for the good map its very clear.
80 Tmcn : Reminds me somewhat of the BA772 that crashed at LHR in 2007. Any news yet on the results of the investigation for that one?
81 BOACVC10 : I am sure there will be a.netters who have the engineering skills to come up with logical explanations in the next few days, and I would welcome some
82 Reality : Why not let Pilotaydin decide what to do himself? Why is this your business. It is up to Pilotaydin.
83 Robcol99 : So since the distance of the aircarft to the threshold is around 1,5 km. It was in the last 20-25 seconds of the flight. They were supposed to be arou
84 Cmoltay : Imagine this: The aircraft sinking, tail down, continuing its forward motion; the tail strikes the wet ground, as forward motion continues it gets bu
85 Post contains links NCB : Thanks for your inputs Pilotaydin, don't be bothered by the children who also have the right to post on this website. I rather hope that you will get
86 Globeex : Well sometime I even wish that the media would look a bit more on this site and don't take their "aviation experts" which usually think about an airp
87 OA260 : CNN say the third Pilot was a trainee apprentice observing. They just played the last words of the pilots also on ATC.
88 Sbworcs : Can't add anything new but just find it so sad that in such a short timespan we are all here offering condolences that have lost loved ones to a crash
89 GlobeEx : Somehow I can't edit my post, so sorry for that: relating to my post above. You have to keep in mind, that the gear was down, breaking the aircraft fa
90 OPNLguy : Sorry, but I bailed out of this aspect of the thread back in reply #48. Dead issue AFAIC...
91 Aleksandar : First of all, why you wouldn't have the right to post your opinion and also to defend your airline? I see nothing wrong in that. In fact, youare one
92 DingDong : I'm not familiar with AMS ops, but what STAR would you typically be flying for an 18R arrival?
93 Gorgos : Eyewitness reports in Dutch suggest the tail went down/nose up violently and then the opposite nose down. They also mentioned the airplane was unusua
94 Bahadir : can anyone report who landed before the unfortunate aircraft? it starts to feel like a wake turbulance issue. at least we can rule that one out if we
95 Post contains links EMA747 : From the pics here http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202 it looks like at least the port side engine came off without too much damage at all to the pyl
96 Post contains links Khobar : This photo appears to show one of the gear in the background with some other wreckage: http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/Photos/Alb...VCqlakTpHa4KKPpT0VL8sNi
97 Cmoltay : Ugur Cebeci mentioned a 777 on the news... Regards,
98 Tom_eddf : How can a non-T-Tail aircraft like a 737 encounter a deep stall?
99 ULMFlyer : Negative. Reverser deployed 15:01 into the flight. Maybe you're thinking of JJ 402 PT-MRK @ CGH. PilotAydin, I'm sorry for your loss. I do really app
100 Emrecan : Totally agreed !
101 MSYtristar : I'm not sure what the effects of wake turbulence would be on larger airplanes like a 738, but a couple of previous crashes involving corporate jets wh
102 Alessandro : Bahadir, it was a B757 whom landed before the B738.
103 Aleksandar : Somebody said that emergency was declared prior to landing of ill-fated place and that emergency vehicles were waiting for the plane. Does anybody kno
104 Alessandro : Heard that after Lauda they have implemented 3 extra locking devices on all Boeing jetplanes to avoid a repeat.
105 Bahadir : everything sounded normal on the tapes i listened to
106 Tlynch : From the first picture in reply 54 the horizontal stabilizer is about 60 meter's ,196ft behind the aircraft with debris in between. Would this indicat
107 Aleksandar : Hmm, so it is just a rumor...again.
108 Post contains links PW100 : At no stage an emergency was declared. So no, no emergency. Here are some of the audio tapes from www.liveATC.net: Approach: http://archive-server.li
109 Baguy : Interesting, Although from the numerous articles and opinions I have read, this seems unlikely. Anyhow, My deepest sympathy to everyone involved. Saf
110 FatmirJusufi : It's so sad to hear the last words of TK pilot. RIP
111 OA260 : Indeed very sad .
112 NCB : T-tail doesn't have much to do with deep stalling. You can deep stall anything. Deep stall refers to the fact that you are dropping almost vertically
113 Cumulus : Unless Engine Failure after full flap extension.
114 Acabgd : What is obvious in the US of A doesn't have to apply to the whole world. It is not as if TK might be held liable for something Pilotaydin says. At le
115 9V-SPJ : It would be interesting to see if the crew was using autoland during this landing. 9V-SPJ
116 Qualitydr : I believe you've hit the key point here, RJ. In the USA your sentence is a pretty good description of how many (all too many!) journalists approach t
117 Irelayer : Very tragic indeed. RIP to the victims. -IR
118 Baguy : Sorry, post i made earlier was out of date by the time i posted it. BAguy
119 Post contains links NQYGuy : I've uploaded some of the ATC found in the news reports. Very sad indeed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6s6dV7N75g[Edited 2009-02-25 14:15:19]
120 Post contains links Boeing747_600 : While you can technically deep-stall anything, a T-tail has a LOT to do with the ability to recover from a deep stall. A deep stall results in the do
121 PanHAM : Not only the location, but also that it obviously flipped over after detaching. I just want to make a remark on the rescue equipment they have at Sch
122 Derik737 : " target=_blank>http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202 In the 10th picture, the Flight Data Recorder is sitting on the ground still in it's overhead ce
123 OA260 : BBC reports that the post 9/11 cockpit doors made it hard for the rescue workers to get into the cockpit. The marks on the top of A/C over the cockpit
124 Icareflies : Boeing is saying that 4 employees were on board of the plane. No more info for now.
125 Post contains links OA260 : Four Americans on Crashed Plane in Amsterdam That Killed Nine There were four American citizens on the flight, according to the State Department. The
126 Post contains links Climb1 : Hmm. Looking at this image that doesnt look like an axe. But time will tell. http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/crashschiphol2.jpg
127 Hiflyer : Believe that the puncture behind the cockpit could be galley structure forced up from below thru the top of the skin....that and the breaking of the
128 RichM : " target=_blank>http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202 The link doesn't appear to work.
129 OA260 : I saw video footage earlier of a fireman with an axe hitting that part. Maybe it was like that already and I dont know why the fireman was hitting at
130 SuseJ772 : Sounds like windshear to me. Funny. That is what the BA 777 pax said as well. Windshear would be number one, then your list only down one position.
131 PW100 : That was part of the leassons learned on the previous crash at Schiphol Airport in 1994 [KLM cityhopper SAAB 340], which also crashed in muddy farmla
132 GAIsweetGAI : Reminds me of the A310 incident - was it at ORY? IIRC it stalled on approach, with the A/T engaged. (From memory, so correct me if I'm wrong. Hopeful
133 NCB : T-tail or not it wouldn't make any difference on a deep stall on final approach. Either way, you won't recover. The shadowing effect on T-tails impai
134 F9Animal : I am shocked that the pilots did not survive this. The damage to the flight deck does not appear to be fatal looking. Of course, I am obviously no cra
135 PW100 : Highly unlikely as there was no severe weahter whatsoever in the vicinity of the airport. Weather was very calm. Regards, PW100
136 Post contains links Hywel : I wonder if for some reason the auto throttle had been disengaged and the crew did not notice. The speed reduces and the crew did not notice, stall wa
137 UltimateDelta : That is a good question. I've read about cases where people suffer not-very-hard impacts to the chest and still died just from the shock. I guess the
138 PW100 : Take a good look at the underside and the front underside of the front fuselage. A lot of trauma to the airplane. It appears that the cockpit floor c
139 Post contains links OA260 : Statements on casualties in Turkish Airlines crash create controversy Contradictory statements made by officials after a Boeing 747-800 type passenger
140 RichM : Wouldn't it take forever for an axe to penetrate the body of the aircraft?
141 Post contains links Hiflyer : http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202 shows the external damage to the cockpit area pretty clearly. It is possible that they may also show some interna
142 Aleksandar : Hmm, now I see it. Someone mentioned some German media and emergency landing, but it is possible that they made wrong conclusion after listening to th
143 Starlionblue : The unmistakable speech pattern. "Thiss iw Wichawd Qwwessst wepowting."
144 Post contains links OA260 : Not sure. I just saw it earlier on CNN and it caught my attention as I wondered why he was doing it. Some more pics here :: http://www.reuters.com/ne
145 Skippy777 : Message from the Dutch NTSB in de Telegraaf De voorzitter van de Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid zei in het tv-programma NOVA dat de vliegers van het t
146 B747forever : Knowing the he lost his life makes it really sad. May he and all the other victims rest in peace[Edited 2009-02-25 15:27:40]
147 Post contains links and images Deaphen : Hi guys, I just got back after visiting the crash and have lots of pics, here are a few, to clear things up...its easier if we have our own photo pool
148 B747forever : Wow, great pics. Do you have more pics of the winglets? Seems really weird that both of them broke.
149 PW100 : One of the pax on board the plane was just live on TV on a local late night show. He claims that immediately before the impact the engines spooled up,
150 LTAC03R : It's been a very sad day at TK, especially among members of the 737 fleet. Any lives lost surely mean intolerable pain for people dedicated to a profe
151 PW100 : I understood things incorrectly. At least 5 hospitals were in full emergency mode. A spokesman of one hospital [not the largest one] said that his ho
152 PW100 : Very sad indeed
153 Sunx737 : Very sad day in Turkey....May they rest in peace...
154 757GB : Only speculation on my part, but could they have been hit by debris? I haven't taken the time to take a look at the debris pattern (not enough time,
155 Boeing747_600 : That's not necessarily true. Non T-tails have demonstrated better stall recovery over the flight envelope from T/O to cruise to approach. Again, all
156 Starlionblue : Nitpick here. This is not angle of attack. You are talking of angle of the fuselage to ground. Angle of attack has to do with airflow over the wings.
157 Deaphen : Though I forgot to mention in my earlier post, the Dutch emergency services were absolutely excellent. Its amazing how this small country manages to b
158 Prebennorholm : Where is the left side engine? I haven't read all 1000+ posts in all four threads, but probably most of them. We have seen many pictures from the cras
159 Deaphen : I had posted pics of both engines in reply 152. One is more battered and the other one's blades are almost intact! Nitin
160 Post contains links B747forever : Here is a pic of both: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...c_&prev_id=1489224&next_id=1488993
161 Pilotaydin : Then let's forbid on A.net from now on, for ANYONE to dare and post what they think happened, from now on let's make it a boo hoo thread...everyone s
162 Midcon385 : Geez guys, give Pilotaydin a break. He's just lost some colleagues, maybe even friends. Have some compassion. And let the guy talk if he wants to talk
163 Pilotaydin : you know what pisses me off..... this thread is about the plane crash.. but for some reason, some of you higher people...if i may call it that, seem t
164 SXDFC : RIP to all of those who perished on this truly sad day in aviation as well as Turkish Aviation as well. As far as the comments towards Pilotaydin, giv
165 Pilotaydin : why?!?!?!?!? NON of us here are going to write or publish the REAL cause or report when it comes out... let's never guess the score of a soccer game
166 Jetplaner : CTV Regina news tonight reported it as a "jumbo jet" crash. The rest of the story was accurate, but if they call a 737 a jumbo jet, then I wonder what
167 LAXintl : Personally I feel we cant discount the possibility the plane was hit by falling space debris No seriously guys, lets not pick on Pilotaydin. Each one
168 Post contains links OV735 : After reading most of the posts on the 4 threads, I can only think of two speculative theories. Theory #1 Fuel starvation - A mistake at fuel loading
169 Threepoint : I believe these are very useful theories, because they outline what [i]may]/i]have happened. Ruling out causes such as fuel starvation, as I have men
170 Pilotaydin : yes it would, but the center tanks would be dry and the fuel would be in the wing tanks...and they didn't seem to comprimised to me....and also, the
171 Pilotaydin : do you enjoy implying things? when are you going to stop judging peoples' ideas just because you don't agree, that doesn't make your ideology a bette
172 Pilotaydin : some people are interested in why the a/c went down others just want to feel better by playing with words and waiting for the big I told you so moment
173 Prebennorholm : Yes, the best and most informative pics from the site. Thanks! I noticed that 20 seconds after posting my questions. Also thanks to B747forever for p
174 Pilotaydin : The Captain was very experienced, I have flown with him, he was a wonderful person and a great instructor... I respect anyone that thinks it was fuel
175 Crownvic : Pilotaydin, dont take it personal everyone here is an expert speculator and a wannabe investigator...It was a sad day for you and youyr airline....
176 ULMFlyer : I haven't seen this posted before, so despite my efforts to read all posts in all threads, I might have missed it. There's info out there that someone
177 Kl911 : I hate to be negative, but does anyone remember the Fedex MD11, where one crewmember attacked the flightcrew with an axe or hamer in order to let the
178 Pilotaydin : And that's why this forum exists...i mean we're here to discuss it, if we were here to just read it, then we'd go on some AP website and read it... I
179 Virgin744 : PilotAydin, Basin sag olsun! Its very noble of you to add your insight at a difficult time like this without getting too personal and hopefully air tr
180 Pilotaydin : The news here is that the pilot in the jumpseat was the F/O acting as safety officer, and the F/O in line training was in the right seat... this is c
181 Kl911 : PilotAydin, There won¨t be more info anyway tonight. try to rest and sleep instead of nitpicking at eachother here. Lets save this thread to the cras
182 Pilotaydin : good idea...let's do that. We'll let CNN do the work tonight and we can speculate tomorrow
183 OV735 : Point taken, as I said, I'm not sure if foaming the wings would even be considered in these conditions when the risk of ignition is that low. The tra
184 Scooter01 : Reading in another forum about this terrible accident, I find this post: "TK pilot on airliners.net claims the plane took off with 12.2 tons of fuel
185 Threepoint : Good eyes Scooter01. There have been fair warnings about the risks of public blogging by airline company staff. Don't let emotions jeopardize careers
186 EMA747 : In the pics in reply 152 one engine is pretty much undamaged as far as fan blades but the other is all battered up and covered in mud. If you look clo
187 SuseJ772 : Isn't that the point of windshear? It just shows up out of the blue in seemingly "good" conditions.
188 Pilotaydin : IT IS ON EVERY TURKISH NEWSPAPER WEBSITE AAAAAAAAND on TURKISH AVIATION FORUMS....... IT's PUBLIC and in the PRESS and the friggin Airline Pilot Asso
189 Deaphen : The black boxes will be investigated very soon... so everyone should just hold their horses... no point bikering over speculation.
190 Kl911 : Not Allah? Anyway, let them.... concentrate on this disaster and on your self. ok? KL911
191 B747forever : Will be very very interesting to hear about it when the investigation is done.
192 Aleksandar : and mine, too Not being an expert, I heard a comparison with Air Transat flight that suffered fuel starvation as well as with Air Canada's case that
193 Aleksandar : I suppose it is the same
194 Atlturbine : Couldn't agree more sir! To those of you who do not like speculation about aviation tragedies....you should avoid any television, newspapers & this s
195 Patches : From all the Video and pics that I have seen from the crash site.I'm quite impresseed with the Dutch EMS system. It looks like they did one hell of a
196 Pihero : Late for barging in. Anet has become very strange, these days. Either you people share (?) the same love for aviation - I mean real aviation not flite
197 Starlionblue : And the pilots didn't check the fuel state once during the flight? And the instruments didn't warn them? Seems a bit unlikely. There are instruments
198 Post contains links WILCO737 : Discussion maybe continued here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4331144/
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