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TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 5  
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8908 posts, RR: 76
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 44995 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This is Part 5 of the tragic accident of the TK flight.


Please continue the discussion here. The previous installments may be found here:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
232 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 44903 times:

I just noticed something odd in this pic:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...Airlines/Boeing-737-8F2/1489235/L/
My apologies in advance if this was already mentioned in one of the many posts about this incident.

Why is the red strap across the window on door 1R, but the evacuation slide clearly was disarmed? I find it very hard to believe that after the accident but before opening the door, a F/A took time to disarm the door. Surely an untrained pax would not know how to disarm it. Fortunately, with the collapsed gear, the slide was not needed. Otherwise, a disarmed, but otherwise useable door during an emergency evacuation could have resulted in a lot more deaths.


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 44744 times:

I have read dozens of posts on another aviation website where there is a raging debate over whether the crash of TK 1591 was caused due to the much higher than normal number of birds in the AMS area (an area that usually has a larger number of birds in it). Interesting information, to say the least if birdstrikes were indeed the reason for the TK crash. Condolences to the families, coworkers, and friends of those lost in the crash and best wishes for rapid recoveries for those injured.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44577 times:



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 1):
Why is the red strap across the window on door 1R, but the evacuation slide clearly was disarmed?

The slides were not necessarily disarmed prior to opening.

I read earlier in the thread that the cabin crew might have been incapacitated during the impact. If none of the pax was able to open the doors, it is possible that they had to wait until the rescue crew came and opened them from the outside, in which case the slides don't deploy, even if they're armed.

If they really had to wait for the ground crew to open them, it must have been an excrutiating wait... Hopefully they were able to open at least the overwing emergency exits, which don't have slides.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineBOACVC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44589 times:



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 1):
I just noticed something odd in this pic:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...Airlines/Boeing-737-8F2/1489235/L/
My apologies in advance if this was already mentioned in one of the many posts about this incident.

Where is the radome? I have not seen yet a clear picture as to WHERE it is and HOW it came off so cleanly? Did someone remove it to gain access to the bulkhead, or is it designed to pop off? Besides, where is the radar emitter and receiver antenna array ?

BOACVC10



Up, up and Away!
User currently offlineNWA757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44560 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 3):
I read earlier in the thread that the cabin crew might have been incapacitated during the impact. If none of the pax was able to open the doors, it is possible that they had to wait until the rescue crew came and opened them from the outside, in which case the slides don't deploy, even if they're armed.

If they really had to wait for the ground crew to open them, it must have been an excrutiating wait... Hopefully they were able to open at least the overwing emergency exits, which don't have slides.

I'm pretty sure on the 737 series, the door does not disarm from being opened from the outside, the slide pack will fall out, but it will not blow unless the cord is pulled.


User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44450 times:

I wonder what could have caused the rip on the roof, directly over the cockpit?

User currently offlineSnn2003 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44423 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 3):

The 737 doors DO NOT disarm when opened from the outside.

SNN



One way, IAH-RTB please! No return ticket required.
User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3451 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44357 times:



Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 4):
Where is the radome? I have not seen yet a clear picture as to WHERE



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 6):

I wonder what could have caused the rip on the roof, directly over the cockpit?

The radome coming up and off back over the cockpit...taking off a piece of the fuselage on its high speed departure?

Just a thought...



hit it and quit it
User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2158 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44381 times:

The landing gear that entered the cockpit should have moved the rear panel, killing the crew.

This is really sad.

One thing is certain the plane was flying very slow, hence the very short trail of debris and the survivors speak of this terrible slam "landing"

I had a very bad landing in MIA years ago in a AA 737, the landing was very very hard and we landed barely on the tarmac, I was in the last row and I heard BOTH fllight attendants scream. So maybe a windshear with very little rom the spare is the reason.

Why it was so slow and it did not make it to the Tarmac, Ill leave that investigation to experts.
My condolences...

Best Regards TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineKirkseattle From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 44220 times:

My condolences to the families of the passengers, the crew and entire TK family.

Pilotaydin - Thank you for posting. This is a forum to discuss the crash and you've done just that.

Regarding the damage to the cockpit, it seems as though the plane hit with the tail first and then slammed down without much skidding,etc. Think about a tree falling or dropping your arm from the elbow. The force is at the end. Just an observation.

Look forward to the cause so the aviation community can learn, make corrections and continue bringing people, worlds apart, together.

Regards,

-Kirk


User currently offlineEtops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1038 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 44034 times:

The 737 series of a/c do not disarm form the outside since the arming and disarming mechanism is a manual one. You have to literally remove or install the girt bar from or into the brackets in order to disarm or arm the doors .I am also puzzled as to why the slides did not deploy when the doors were opened even from the outside.

User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 43927 times:



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 6):
I wonder what could have caused the rip on the roof, directly over the cockpit?

I can't vouch for the veracity of this information, but I read in another forum that it was caused by a firefighter's axe when he or she was trying to gain access to the cockpit to help the flight crew. Those claiming this is what happened said they saw the scene unfolding on Dutch TV. Apparently, rescue crews were having a hard time gaining access to the cockpit due to the armored door.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 43859 times:



Quoting Snn2003 (Reply 7):
The 737 doors DO NOT disarm when opened from the outside.

On other Boeing aircrafts, opening an armed door from the outside will prevent the slide from blowing, even if it will not physically 'disarm' the door (i.e. the 'arm' 'disarm' lever will stay in position). The mechanism will override it and raise the girt bar.

I don't know about the 737 doors, but I would be really surprised if it didn't have a similar mechanism to prevent the slide from blowing in the face of a rescue crew having to open the door from the outside.

Yesterday's scenario is the exact reason for such a mechanism...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineJbguller From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 43673 times:

Hi all,

First up RIP to those who lost their lives in this tragedy. Condolences to you Pilotaydin and to others involved for losing valued colleagues and friends, and family.

I don't want to speculate, more so I just want to add another possibility to the list. Everyone has been talking about the speed of the aircraft - you can see from the debris trail it was traveling at a slow rate, and the damage to the craft sure does indicate a much heavier-than-normal landing.

I am interested to hear your views around the spoilers. Is it possible that the spoilers, as we have seen in previous accidents, remained accidentally deployed as the aircraft was on approach? I'm guessing the velocity at which the aircraft impacted the ground would have made them flush with the rest of the wing, but as I haven't seen pics involving the wings themselves, could this be a plausible possibility?


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43610 times:



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 6):
I wonder what could have caused the rip on the roof, directly over the cockpit?

Possibly a fireman's axe - trying to gain access to the cockpit?



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43611 times:



Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 13):
I read in another forum that it was caused by a firefighter's axe when he or she was trying to gain access to the cockpit to help the flight crew.

Yes - http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4331268/


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43610 times:

Hi Everybody. After reading almost every post since thread Nº 1, sadly i have to say some of the members here have a wrong idea about the purpose of the forums here in A.net. Some people seems to hate any form of speculation and exchange of ideas...looks like the site has the responsability of release in the next days the final report of the accident and write the recomedations instead the Safety Board of the country where the accident happened. With all the respect you deserve , the whole concept of this forums, is the mutual exchange of information, ideas, speculation, people making questions, other people giving answers to those questions....that's the final purpose of any "Discussion Forum", of any kind, of any site....

I'll think most of us, pilots or not, industry workers or not, even simply aviation enthusiasts, we all already know this : The real causes of any accident, usually take months, even years before a final conclusion, supported by demonstrated facts, Blackboxes reading, and even more, sometimes ( sadly ), with all the technology we have today, a final conclusion is never founded.
Knowing that, why is so tasteless make assumptions ? why somebody can not have a theory of what happened and share with the rest of us ? Again, with all the respect, If you want only demonstrated facts, expect the 12, or 24, or 36 months, and read the Final report of the Safety Board. In the mean time, let us to talk, in a friendly way, in the A.net forums. Thank you.
On a side note, when i heard the first time about the crash, my first thought was for fellow A.netter PilotAydin. It's glad to see he's ok and was not part of the crew who suffered this horrible tragedy. Hope all the victims rest in peace and all the best to the people involved and relatives.

Saludos.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43522 times:



Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 9):
I had a very bad landing in MIA years ago in a AA 737, the landing was very very hard and we landed barely on the tarmac, I was in the last row and I heard BOTH fllight attendants scream. So maybe a windshear with very little rom the spare is the reason.

Even if there was windshear on approach, which there wasn't (AMS was reporting typical February weather... clouds, light rain, light winds), it was nothing that was catastrophic. I don't know why so many people want to bring up the the weather... Christ, it's ridiculous. We aren't talking about DFW in late June with supercell activity rolling in.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineLfutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3305 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43459 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

If someone could tell me what the lower picture is in De Telegraaf (Donderdag editie), it looks like a good picture to post.

Leo



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offlineSuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43340 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 21):
Even if there was windshear on approach, which there wasn't (AMS was reporting typical February weather... clouds, light rain, light winds), it was nothing that was catastrophic. I don't know why so many people want to bring up the the weather... Christ, it's ridiculous. We aren't talking about DFW in late June with supercell activity rolling in.

I could be wrong, but isn't that the difficulty of windshear. It appears out of no where with little signs. It can be clear weather, no wind, no grave situation and then bam...windshear.

I could be wrong but I thought claiming that it was a "clear" day does not necessarily negate windshear theory.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2158 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43141 times:

That is my point, the landing in MIA was a clear sunny day, nothing weird or unusual.

Maybe the 757 that landed before left a long wake, who knows.



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 43974 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 3):
If none of the pax was able to open the doors, it is possible that they had to wait until the rescue crew came and opened them from the outside, in which case the slides don't deploy, even if they're armed.

On the B737, like a DC-9, the girt bar has to be manually locked into the floor bracket to arm the door. If you look at the pic to which I was referring, you can clearly see that the girt bar is in the bracket on the slide pack on the door. If the door was armed, regardless of whether the door was opened from inside or outside, the bar would have been secured to the floor brackets, and the slide would have been pulled out of the housing on the door.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 43098 times:



Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 19):
Hi Everybody. After reading almost every post since thread Nº 1, sadly i have to say some of the members here have a wrong idea about the purpose of the forums here in A.net. Some people seems to hate any form of speculation and exchange of ideas...looks like the site has the responsability of release in the next days the final report of the accident and write the recomedations instead the Safety Board of the country where the accident happened. With all the respect you deserve , the whole concept of this forums, is the mutual exchange of information, ideas, speculation, people making questions, other people giving answers to those questions....that's the final purpose of any "Discussion Forum", of any kind, of any site....

I'll think most of us, pilots or not, industry workers or not, even simply aviation enthusiasts, we all already know this : The real causes of any accident, usually take months, even years before a final conclusion, supported by demonstrated facts, Blackboxes reading, and even more, sometimes ( sadly ), with all the technology we have today, a final conclusion is never founded.
Knowing that, why is so tasteless make assumptions ? why somebody can not have a theory of what happened and share with the rest of us ? Again, with all the respect, If you want only demonstrated facts, expect the 12, or 24, or 36 months, and read the Final report of the Safety Board. In the mean time, let us to talk, in a friendly way, in the A.net forums. Thank you.

Gonzalo, you really hit the nail on the head. This text deserves to go into the Posting Guidelines.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4738 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 42779 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 15):
I don't know about the 737 doors, but I would be really surprised if it didn't have a similar mechanism to prevent the slide from blowing in the face of a rescue crew having to open the door from the outside.

Well, the 737 slides will, repeat WILL deploy if the slide is armed and the door is opened from the outside. That is why an orange flag is put across the window on the inside when the slides are armed. It tells whoever is attempting to open the door not to open because the slide is armed. It's a very serious matter for anyone having anything to do around 737s involving opening any door to the cabin.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
25 UAL777 : I as a pilot find it somewhat tacky and annoying when some people on this board play amateur NTSB investigator whenever an aircraft goes down. This m
26 Av8orwalk : I'm just suggesting here, but do you think the flight attendant realized the forward galley doors' proximity to the ground and knew that slides would
27 Winterapfel : The chairman of the Dutch transportation safety board (pieter van vollenhoven) has released a small amount of information on the pilots and the situat
28 Morvious : First, my condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of the passengers and my thoughts are with the critical wounded. -- At this stage of fli
29 A390 : All I would like to say is WELL DONE to the emergency services. Fantastic job !!!
30 Exsr : I could imagine that the slides have been deployed - but were immediatly removed by rescue workers to have better access to the cabin. On one of the
31 Cmoltay : Passenger accounts published mention exiting through the rear of the fuselage, maybe the doors were never opened during evacuation. Regards,
32 Post contains links Gorgos : Dont kill the messenger. Reconstruction based on eyewitness accounts: http://www.youtube.com/user/blenderpedia
33 FatmirJusufi : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/user/blenderpedia Flight Simulator?
34 Kiwiandrew : Thanks for your input Robert (and indeed to all the other professionals who have offered their insights on this and many other topics ) . I can under
35 Gorgos : No idea, its not mine, but it gives a more graphic view of what other people have described. I'm sure its flawed in many many ways.
36 TheSonntag : I see your point and can understand it, I always get annoyed when non lawyers try to comment on "scandalous" legal decisions, as well. This is a natu
37 Starlionblue : You are correct. Some are ridiculous. Then again "there are no stupid questions". As a subject matter expert you have a great chance to explain why t
38 UAL777 : Understood and I appreciate both your honesty and appreciation of my point of view. In light of that, I will share what I see as a pilot and from my
39 Exsr : What do you mean with that?
40 Severnaya : There will be given press conference at 13:00 CET (12:00 UTC) at Schiphol airport, at least the mayor of Haarlemmermeer will be present.
41 Post contains links Airvan00 : Way back in Part 1 reply 91 _____________________________ EHAM METAR EHAM 251025Z 22011KT 3500 -DZ BR OVC007 05/04 Q1027 TEMPO 2500 Wind from the SW
42 Draigonair : Does anyone know what plane landed before the Turkish went down?
43 Post contains links UAL777 : The firewall that separates the radar dome from the cockpit is bent down and "dug" into the ground. http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...irlines/Bo
44 Severnaya : AFAIK the KL410, an A332 arriving from Almaty
45 Morvious : If I remeber it right, one passenger was interviewed yesterday, saying he left the plane by the exit. Offcourse I could have misunderstood it and tha
46 Draigonair : If an A330 landed before the Turkish and the waketurbulence of that plane was still around, that could have played a role.
47 UAL777 : Field elevation I saw is -11 feet. That means the clouds were at roughly 600-700 feet AGL. The should have been out from under most of the IFR and ha
48 UAL777 : I've hit wake turbulence once and its more like a hard slam, but it could be a possibility. A vibration (or buffet as we call it) is more indicative
49 Kiwiandrew : thanks for your posts . some news reports are crediting the 'soft ground' for having reduced the fire risk and damage , but , if the nose actually 'd
50 Severnaya : Strange by the way that TK does not change the flightnumber of the IST-AMS flight. Today the TK flight IST-AMS arrived here with the same flightnumber
51 Whaley : eye witness who approached the airplane from the outside just after the crash and before emergency services were present, mentioned he entered the pla
52 OA260 : Some said the muddy ground could have helped prevent any sparks from igniting anything that was flamable. I dont doubt that the soft ground helped cu
53 Beagleboys : About the Slides: 1. on a 737 the slide sistem is very simple and manual, when the doors open the slide fall and deploy, you don't have to pull any st
54 Kappel : I was watching a Dutch talkshow "Pauw en Witteman" yesterday where they interviewed a passenger. He said the plane started to wobble from left to rig
55 UAL777 : Yes. Mother Terra is suprisingly strong and sticky. Now the fact that it is not condusive to sparking is good as well. I am sure if the pilots had to
56 OA260 : Yes and its a credit to them that the majority did get out alive.
57 Starlionblue : Some airlines do it, some don't. It is by no means a given. You may be right, but I think conclusively stating "not correct" may be a bit strong. It
58 BlueShamu330s : Firstly, my condolences to everyone affected by yesterday's events. Each time there is an accident, it gives us all a gut-wrenching dose of realism as
59 Kappel : You are right. I should have said "seems to not be correct".
60 Post contains links Al2637 : Don't know if this has already been posted, but some interesting passenger accounts: http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/loca...ounts-of-crash_49988.html?
61 Bennett123 : Two points that catch my attention; On one of the earlier threads there was a photo of the (starboard?) engine. Some of the blades at the bottem of th
62 Starlionblue : The gash was caused by an axe, not impact forces.
63 Post contains links Severnaya : http://www.nos.nl/nosjournaal/artikelen/2009/2/26/260209_cockpit.html According to a pilot who analyzed the atc-tape, the TK pilots talk very fast on
64 Post contains links and images Deaphen : I dont quite agree with that, take a look at this pic i took, you can clearly see a rectangular metal bar kind of thing which has penetrated the skin
65 EZEIZA : Don't take my word for it as I know nothing about this, and I am mainly just reading through these threads, but it looks like the break comes from th
66 NNomad : Indeed.. It clearly shows a puncture through the fuselage caused by a very strong "dry" horizontal impact.. after seeing that image, its scary to ima
67 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : http://www.telegraaf.nl/prive/333945...l_vertelt_over_crash__.html?p=39,1 (Dutch only): Two sisters, apparently known TV personalities: Don't know wha
68 BlueShamu330s : Those could quite conceivably be from cabin fittings or indeed from the flightdeck door frame if, as has been suggested, the floor was so severley co
69 Aviationfreak : Contamination? What destinations did the a/c previous fly to? Sander
70 Severnaya : Some updates: - At least some overhead bin luggage fell on people sitting in the plane. - Press conference at 13:00 CET. (Director of Schiphol, mayor
71 Robcol99 : TC-JGE did IST-TLV-IST on Dec 24th afternoon. Then left for Damascus, Syria for IST-DAM-IST at 23:25 on Dec 24th. Landed back on IST at 5:57 AM on De
72 Severnaya : February....
73 Baw716 : First of all, to Pilotaydin and all the TK family as well as the family and friends of those who were lost and injured today, I want to express my dee
74 BlueShamu330s : That, until anything official is released by the investigators, is one leap of faith too far. We have no objective evidence yet pointing to the cause
75 OzTech : The U shaped bracket is actually the upper mounting bracket for the forward galley and I am pretty sure the smaller one to the left is the same assem
76 JCS17 : In addition to the nose gear and its components probably penetrating the cockpit, there also looked like there could be a minor crush of the instrume
77 Starlionblue : Oops. Wasn't there another gash? I'm confused....
78 757GB : I feel the same way. Rationally I would lash out about them going back and worrying about their belongings. I have to stop and think however that pas
79 Winterapfel : Press conference on Dutch tv, - 9 death confirmed (numbers have not changed) - 65 people still in hospital, 6 still in critical condition - list of na
80 PanHAM : since it is February and not December, the aircrfat flew IST-CPH-IST- LHR-IST- DUS-IST before making its last flight. This was shown in the first thr
81 MCOflyer : Pilotaydin, My condolences to you and your colleagues. NO ONE should speculate what happened unless they are a 737 qualified pilot or a qualified NTSB
82 Aviationfreak : Thanx! That was what I was wanting to know.
83 LTBEWR : The speculation on this and other like sites as well as in the media reflects the natural curisoity of humans who want to know what happened in any ac
84 Robcol99 : I said December by mistake. I meant February. I am pretty sure that the aircraft did IST-DAM-IST prior to IST-AMS last flight. This is even public on
85 Post contains links Severnaya : Nationalities on board known so far: The Netherlands: 53 Turkey: 51 UK: 3 USA: 7 Germany: 1 Thailand: 1 Italy: 1 Finland: 1 Bulgaria: 1 Unknown: 15 4
86 Bennett123 : PanHam Whilst contamination is less likely at CPH/LHR/DUS, it is of course impossible to rule it out at this stage. Is it possible that the cause coul
87 Aljrooney : Quoting UAL777: '3. Power loss through fuel exhaustion or contamination.' Does the B738 share the same fuel pump config as the B772? or even commom pa
88 KL577 : No, that must be the A380 CNN is referring to.
89 Swissy : I guess then the forums would be pretty empty..... it is human nature plain simple.... however I appreciate all comments from the pros. flying the me
90 Post contains links Markdirk : From the photos of both the right and left forward section of the aircraft, it does appear that both 1L and 1R are in the "disarmed" positions. The gi
91 OV735 : I think the exits were only opened by the rescue workers, who disarmed the slides beforehand. As for passengers, who were able to walk, well, there's
92 PanHAM : That is exactly why I said "should".
93 9V-SPJ : No, the fuel pump issue on the 777 is unique to the Trent 800 series on the B777. 737 engines are CFM56-7. 9V-SPJ
94 Bennett123 : So we are in agreement. I was merely pointing out the risk of assuming that the fuel was OK purely because it was loaded at LHR for example, as oppose
95 Post contains links Sniffmom : Since there seems to be a lot of discussion as to how passengers evacuated the plane, I take it that this picture hasn't been posted earlier. It seems
96 Khobar : The NTSB won't even be investigating this crash unless they are asked to, and even then it will be in a supporting role rather than lead. Currently t
97 Post contains links Fkruiver : Pic of the interior after the crash: http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuw..._1445_foto_interieur_vliegtuig.xml
98 Post contains links and images FatmirJusufi : " target=_blank>http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuw...g.xml It's so damaged! Thanks for sharing Fkuiver. Fatmir
99 Climb1 : Interesting picture. This photo, along with the close up image posted earlier in this thread seems to confirm that the metal coming out of the cockpi
100 Draigonair : This the back of the a/c? nick
101 Exsr : I think it´s a view towards the bulkhead in the front.
102 DALCE : I think this picture is made from the overwing exits, looking forward, with the visible wall being the bulkhead. This pics does give a good view of th
103 Sudden : I went out to the site this morning as I live a bike ride away, and it made me very sad to see it all, knowing what happened. It becomes very real and
104 EMA747 : " target=_blank>http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuw...g.xml Wow. What happened to all the overhead bins and the ceiling?
105 BigMac : Maybe they removed them already? Or maybe they fell down (most probably) and needed to be taken out? Maybe they removed them already? Or maybe they fe
106 Post contains links Draigonair : The lights on next to the doors, they are the emergency exit lights? http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=547525 Nick
107 TK787 : More info from TK about the maintenance of the craft: "-C check on Oct.22 2008, A check Feb.19 2009. Since A check the craft flew a total of 52 hrs. -
108 Growly150 : No offense to anyone who has posted, after an event like this, I find it comforting to check back here frequently to see if anything new has cropped u
109 Sydaircargo : that must have been some hard hit on impact that it rips off the overhead compartments with ceiling
110 Bahadir : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/user/blenderpedia I am not going to kill the messenger but I am really disgusted by the simulator pilots who t
111 LHR380 : We of course know that, but the media will pick it up and say it should not have flown if something was broken.
112 SEPilot : Actually, if the BA incident had happened in cruise, considering that the cause almost certainly was ice clogging the fuel inlet, it is highly likely
113 Exsr : Exactly.
114 F9Animal : Nobody will ever figure out why people do some of the things they do. I personally would have been clearing that plane as far as possible just in cas
115 Gokmengs : I'm very saddened to learn that,my good friends brother and his father was on the plane. His brother is going through surgery and in critical conditio
116 N503JB : Just learned from my friend who handling TK flight today TK management instructed all fights operating on 27FEB09, not to distribute newspaper in-flig
117 Post contains links Whaley : Are they in contact with the Dutch authorities and/or relevant embassy? And the airline? Sadly, I would expect the survivors' identities to be known
118 BOACVC10 : This is quite common, I have seen this behavior on IC and BG and most probably other carriers, when I have travelled immediately after a major incide
119 OPNLguy : The airline obviously wants to avoid the situation (as any airline would) of having them reading about the crash as they fly on their own flights. I
120 Post contains links TK787 : At the IST terminal TK has at least one newspaper kiosk and all TK pax can get free newspapers when they show their boarding pass. Most of the papers
121 Theredbaron : I wonder how many g´s the front part of the plane experienced when it slammed the mud after the tail strike, seeing the photograph I see the overhead
122 Beagleboys : Yes, they are covering something that is being said trough all media in the last 2 days... very clever... I was boarding a QF 747 while the TV screen
123 Yellowtail : Does the 738 have stabilizer similarities with the US734 and the UA 732 there we lost some years ago in PA and CO, USA? or is it all new....if so mayb
124 Boeing747_600 : The report clearly rules out fuel contamination. Ice formation due to water naturally present in the fuel is suspected due to the "unsually (but not
125 Tom355uk : As far as I am aware, all of the 737's Rudder PCU Servo problems were solved by Parker Hannifin and Boeing before the FAA cutoff date of November 200
126 Spacecadet : Exactly. Honestly, I think some people here have an inflated sense of what this forum is. We are not part of the investigation, and nobody is going t
127 Post contains links ETFokker50 : Whoelse thinks this is total BS? http://curry.mevio.com/?p=1534 I'm pretty sure I've read/heard several eyewitness reports stating that there was a ke
128 Vikkyvik : Things such as "being a bit inconsiderate" really have no bearing on someone's mind after something like this. It's easy to look in from the outside
129 OA260 : I think that some people would be ''shell shocked ''
130 757GB : Did you read the comments posted below? I mean I know that many of us don't have the knowledge to figure these things out, and I've seen some wild sp
131 Gonzalo : Thank You !!! I'm proud of it !! I understand you, but that's part of the game. In this forum are many, many levels of knowledege. Here are GAv pilot
132 JoeCanuck : Everyone is entitled to their opinion, right? It's up to the moderators to decide what is appropriate content for their forum. Those who disagree are
133 DALCE : Dutch TV Media (SBS 6) are now reporting in their usual 19.00hrs bulletin that 1 injured passenger has died in the hospital. However no official confi
134 Ocracoke : Are you thinking that there was a total and catastrophic mechanical failure of the horizontal stabilizer....as in it just fell off? This reminds me s
135 Burner71 : hmmm kinda just seems that the pilot got low on the approach for whatever reason, then got behind the power curve and stalled the plane. Hitting the t
136 Post contains links BOACVC10 : "Engine Stall" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? BBC "Engine Failure clue in jet crash"
137 OPNLguy : It wasn't a "speed" problem (as in a blocked pitot-static system) but an "engine thrust" problem (as in not using engine A/I which kept an EPR system
138 Post contains links Desediez : Hi to everybody... First i want to express my condolences to all who did not survive this accident and their families. As next i need to express my re
139 Ocracoke : You're probably right. I was just going off memory, and that was a while ago. For some reason, I thought it was because of a false speed indicator th
140 NCB : Though the passengers heard the engines spool up briefly before impact, it doesn't rule out the possibility of a temporary fuel flow disruption. Just
141 Mcdu : Wake induces a rolling motion. Most often a wake event crash results in the aircraft upside down, or striking the ground one wing low. From the wreck
142 TheSonntag : I hate speculating, as I have said before, I prefer to wait for an official report. But if it really were engine problems, it would be the 2nd CFM 56
143 Kl911 : As if in those 2 jobs nobody makes mistakes and they all know everything...
144 Ocracoke : For the record, I didn't write that above quote.
145 FrmrCAPCADET : While I have taken a dim view of passengers carrying luggage out on an evacuation there is this to consider. The tail is broken off, you've helped the
146 Vfw614 : Telling from the pictures, the F/O looked rather seasoned and almost too old to be a F/O. The third guy was indeed rather young, but wasn't he the ju
147 Petertenthije : Incredible! Lawyers fgrom the USA (yes: USA, not Turkey or NL) are already contacting the passengers involved according to NOS nieuws! The vultures su
148 Winterapfel : not 134 but 135 souls on board according to dutch tv (NOS) Nationalities of the deaths are 5 * Turkish 4 * US citizen
149 TK787 : I am a bit confused on this one also, after this many posts. Who was sitting in F/O seat, who was flying the plane? If you mean Murat Sezer being the
150 FatmirJusufi : Where have you looked the pics? Is someone able linking it? Fatmir
151 Post contains links TK787 : Cockpit crew: (use blue arrow "Sonraki", for next pics) http://www.airkule.com/default.asp?page=haber&id=5693 Cabin crew: http://www.airkule.com/defa
152 Post contains links and images Hotje : Hi all, Take a look at these 2 pics View Large View MediumPhoto © Nitin Sarin - AirTeamImages and http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/ANP-925
153 OPNLguy : Roger that, it was more an issue that they thought that they were already at/near max power (versus the 74% they actually and unknowingly were) and w
154 FatmirJusufi : " target=_blank>http://www.airkule.com/default.asp?p...=5694 Thanks for linking.
155 Post contains links PlanesNTrains : AFAIK, the condition of the four Boeing employees is still unknown. KOMO news in Seattle says on their website that 'the passengers and crew came fro
156 Comorin : From looking at the pictures, it would appear that the a/c hooked the tail on the ground, causing it to pivot really hard (transfer to angular momentu
157 UAL777 : That can be from impact. No I don't. Damn, you beat me to it. I agree.
158 B747forever : Are the four US citizen deaths the Boeing employees?
159 Post contains links FatmirJusufi : There was still no official word on the fate of four Seattle-area Boeing employees who were on board the ill-fated flight. Boeing spokesman Jim Proul
160 Whaley : Not known (or made public) yet. There were at least 7 US citizens on board, and when that number was made available, there were still 15 of unknown n
161 Md80fanatic : But what of the other engine? It experienced the exact same impact into a fairly uniform plowed field, why does the fan disc and core look so pristin
162 Oly720man : There's a vertical cut ahead of the 3rd window as well as along the top under the 'S' and 'H' and it looks like the side of the fuselage has been pul
163 Burner71 : yeah but you don't know what angle it hit. Imagine the plane tail very low in a deep stall and a slight left wing down scenario. The ground could disl
164 Kl911 : That could be. Sources say the cockpit crew bodies could only be removed from the aircraft after lifting the plane a bit. That should also be the rea
165 ETFokker50 : Bit of speculation, but there's also a piece of paper with the number 5 there, together with the evidence of a cut/opening... Could that be the locat
166 Post contains links Etops1 : if you look closely at the cockpit window .you can actually see the f/o slumped over the instrument panel. http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/ANP
167 Post contains links Dstefanc : Interesting information posted by CNN. TK's maintenance record being questioned. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe...6/turkish.airline.crash/index.
168 Ditzyboy : The door is CLEARLY in the dis-armed mode. The girt bar is sitting in the bracket on the door. The damage to the bustle would be from impact forces (
169 Sudden : Has any other (Dutch) members been at the site during later part of the day? I was there this morning at around 10 am. Have they maybe started to lift
170 DaBuzzard : " target=_blank>http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe....html Disgruntled union claiming mx deficient.....gonna take that with a grain of salt conside
171 EMA747 : I didn't think it would take the media long to pick up on this relatively normal thing.
172 MilesDependent : I vote we change the forum rules to specifically DISALLOW these types of posts. Whenever there is a crash we get posts like this. I'm not going to go
173 ETFokker50 : According to the News Agencies this morning the investigation will continue through Saturday, and Monday at the earliest, they expect to move the pla
174 LHR380 : If that was the case, we would not be on part 5, and I doubt we would be past part 1. Thats what this site is about, discussing the matter, trying to
175 Mir : But modern airplanes and airports have windshear detection devices. You'd have to think that if there was a shear big enough to crash an airplane lik
176 Sudden : With all respect to you as a person, What qualifies you to make that statement!? I hope you can take it as a grown man, but it isn't because you are
177 OA260 : Too true . About time someone said it.
178 DingDong : I honestly doubt it since the radio altimeter data would have had been used by the FMCS starting at 2500 feet. The RA data is pretty good, and depend
179 Post contains links CARST : Perhaps the reason for that crash is very similar to Birgenair Flight 301, malfunctioning speed indicators and confusion on the flight deck about thes
180 PlanesNTrains : So we're going to have a rule forbidding people from posting something saying people cannot post? So technically, would your post be forbidden??? Bac
181 Post contains links UAL777 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_1572 It has happened before. If they are below glideslope, but have an incorrect altimeter sett
182 Sankaps : It seems to me that the FAs were probably incapacitated due to their locations. Two would have been in the front galley crew seats, and two in the re
183 ETFokker50 : Well, 7 Americans on the plane, 4 American casualties, 4 Boeing employees on the plane. My math says that generally means at least one Boeing employe
184 PlanesNTrains : Yes, but as has been stated, the nationalities of at least 15 passengers remained unconfirmed, at least the last I heard. For all we know, there may
185 ETFokker50 : Ah, yes, major oversight... Considering nothing is known about the other 3, they could well be "unknown nationality" due to difficulties in identifica
186 Severnaya : Updated pax: 60: The Netherlands 51: Turkey 7: USA 4: Iran 3: UK 2: Syria 1: from Bulgaria, Finland, Germany, Italy, Taiwan and Sudan Nationalities of
187 Avek00 : As any major airline's emergency response plan invariably dictates, Turkish Airlines contacted its lawyers -- likely to include its USA-based legal c
188 Cmoltay : Are babies included in the manifest? There was a baby on board the airplane, it is in the list of passengers on TK's website.
189 Severnaya : That's passenger number 135.
190 Petertenthije : Yes, they can at least have the courtesy of waiting for the people to leave hospital. And at least the lawyers from THY did. The lawyers I referred t
191 Cmoltay : There were 134 passengers in the manifest but 135 actually on board. I'm curious to know if the baby is not incl. in the manifest as a rule or if the
192 LH526 : Babys are usualy listed as INF and MUST be in the Paxlist, I suppose lst minute ACM or PAD who is not listed.
193 Post contains links Cmoltay : An eyewitness account of an Amsterdam resident sent to Turkish daily, Hurriyet: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11090641.asp?scr=1
194 Md80fanatic : That is the risk you take when speech is free. As in commerce where "buyer beware" rules.....on an anonymous forum, "reader beware". This process all
195 Post contains links Climb1 : http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...Airlines/Boeing-737-8F2/1489606/L/ Seems like rescue crews were paying a lot of attention to that part of the
196 Avek00 : FWIW, I've long told my next-of-kin to contact my attorney should I be involved in a life-threatening event or accident, as having a dispassionate so
197 Swissy : I still can get my head around what the g forces must have been for everyone on the aircraft.... wish we had a good aerial photo and see how much dist
198 Mir : AAL1572 was on a non-precision approach, where there is no vertical guidance. An improperly set altimeter would make a difference there, since the pi
199 EMA747 : " target=_blank>http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/d...scr=1 In the clip of the ATC in this link it does sound like the pilots are a bit rushed and p
200 Post contains links and images Deaphen : Closest i could get to getting that shot, just left of the frame lie the horizontal stabs... followed by the gear, and then the mangled tail. Regards
201 Kiwiandrew : you seem to be assuming that all Boeing employees are American ,which is not necessarily correct , however ,I would agree that the odds would seem to
202 Post contains links Deaphen : Full passenger list here: http://www.thy.com/DarkSiteEN/passenger_list.aspx
203 B747forever : Already noted:
204 Andaman : The papers in Finland tell that the 'Finnish' passenger is still a mystery, the owner of the passport found on the 737 was in Finland during the cras
205 Stylo777 : " target=_blank>http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe....html actually THY Technic is one of the best (I mean, if you can say this) mx company on the
206 Christopherwoo : With all due respect, You do not have to be an expert to have an opinion. Quite a few years ago one of my friends who works as Cabin crew was sitting
207 Bahadir : Pick a 'famous' crash in German media and then slap it to this one? Do you hear yourself? Explain to me than how the malfunction didn't happen all th
208 TK787 : Here is some info about the insurance policy from TK's website: "Boeing 737-800 type TC-JGE aircraft which was leased from Perge Aviation Ltd and join
209 Patches : Here is a new question or angle on the crash. I understand the 3 pilots were killed, Very very tragic, my heart goes out to their families. The 737 hi
210 Post contains links B747forever : Boeing confirms that 2 of the 4 Boeing employees are among the 9 fatalities of the crash: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2009/q1/090226d_nr.html
211 UAL777 : I'm perfectly aware how an ILS works and I shoot low IFR approaches all the time. The point is when flying an ILS approach you are constantly cross-c
212 Starlionblue : As mentioned above, it's cute that they mention some of the latest maintenance items, but this is a bit like saying that your car veered off the road
213 Scooter01 : Would not the VASI / PAPI lights be a useful guidance in this case? Looking outside of the cockpit when breaking through the clouds never hurts. (edi
214 Airbuspilot : As a pilot/instructor I truly feel obliged to say something here: The Captain involved was an experienced instructor with a good reputation at TK. The
215 JohnKrist : If you look even closer in other images you will see it's paper and other debris, not the F/O.
216 Dc863 : Well if so it wouldn't be the first time that's happened. When I read your thread it reminded me of the engine out training maneuver a Delta DC-8-54
217 Airbuspilot : As a reply to a later post First of all, a normally operating Airbus( fly by wire generation) can not be stalled. Its authothrust system will not allo
218 Exsr : I love the friendly atmosphere in this forum more and more.
219 Mir : Maybe, maybe not. There are so many factors that go into something like that that saying "Had it been Airplane Type X instead of Airplane Type Y, the
220 Vfw614 : Have not thought about that. If indeed loss of speed turns out to be the culprit and the media finds out about this difference between Airbus and Boe
221 Mir : They would. But that assumes that they were out of the clouds when the problem started, which I don't think we know to be the case. It also assumes t
222 BlueShamu330s : Sadly, I am still of the same opinion, 150 posts later. Rgds
223 Airbuspilot : Blueshamu330, we indeed are of the same opinion. Although LOFTS have nothing to do with this. Manually flown approaches are practised during line trai
224 BlueShamu330s : Absolutely. I simply referred to LOFT training to suggest that the principle of letting a scenario run in the Sim., uncorrected (positive learning), m
225 Ual777 : When I fly ANY approach, the DH/MDA, field elevation, sector altitudes, and any obstacles in the area are always in the back of my mind. You should k
226 76er : Although I fully agree with the rest of your post, I'd have to disagree on this part. JAA requires a raw data ILS (No autopilot, no autothrottle, no
227 Post contains links and images Scooter01 : It looks to me they have PAPI. View Large View MediumPhoto © Frans Zwart - DutchOps View Large View MediumPhoto © M. van Dusseldorp Scooter
228 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Please continue the discussion in the following thread TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 6 Thank you
229 Morvious : For your info. Scooter beat me up to it. Crash site visible in the first image.[Edited 2009-02-27 01:28:59]
230 Sudden : I must express that for being a pilot, your comments are being rather ignorant. Why? Because every time when someone corrects you, you go defensive.
231 BAW716 : With all due respect, an Airbus can be stalled. There are a LOT of protections built into the airplane to prevent it from getting on the wrong side o
232 Oly720man : ////////////////////////////////////////////////// We're now on part 6 everyone //////////////////////////////////////////////////
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