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AA May Furlough 410 Flight Attendants In April  
User currently offlineWhataboutme From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5745 times:

I see AA may furlough flight attendants in April. I think the number 410 is kind of a weird number. Probably 410 TWA f/as'. Anyways Good Luck AA Furlough f/a's.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090226/..._bi_ge/american_airlines_furloughs

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7232 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5736 times:

I always wonder why these types of announcements are isolated, an a/c cannot be despatched for pax service without a full crew, pilots and f/a, there are certainely more f/a than pilots, but are their hours on the job not similar, or do pilots work that much overtime?

I just want to see an airline announce flight crew reductions together, say in this case, 410 f/a's and 50 pilots, sort of keep the crew spirit together.

I also assume some union rules are in order if as the article states, they are looking for junior members, their base salary is probably lower, but benefits for older employee may be higher, all in all, some interesting times at AA, April is not that far away so I do not think the industry is going to change within that time frame to prevent this action.


User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5660 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 1):
I just want to see an airline announce flight crew reductions together, say in this case, 410 f/a's and 50 pilots, sort of keep the crew spirit together.

The problem is pilots are retiring in droves, flight attendants aren't. AA is continuing to recall furloughed pilots, while the attrition rate of flight attendants has significantly slowed in the past six months. The previous few years F/A attrition rates were at all time highs, requiring AA to recall F/As too. That has changed dramatically. The company offered leaves in January in hopes of preventing furloughs, but with the economy as it is, less and less F/As are taking the leaves, and fewer are retiring. Combine that with a shrinking fleet and you've got too many flight attendants.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25423 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

Staffing for an airline is not rocket science at the macro level. Pretty much a simple numbers game of hours to be flow and voila you have the expected population.

Basically what has happened is that AA has sat very heavy with FA staffing this winter based on the assumption that there would be an upswing with summer flying -- which is not happening.
Hence now decision to not carry the overage on payroll any longer leading to the furlough.

For the pilots while not furloughs, AA has decided to stop planned recalls after April as well leaving about 1800 still on the street waiting.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5430 times:

There was an article in the Chicago Tribune, I believe in late December, about a high number of captains retiring earlier than planned, so they could lock in the stock price as a part of their retirement package.

User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1878 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5401 times:

I'm curious about the seniority range of the 410 FAs potentially to be furloughed. If I'm not mistaken AA hasn't had a new hire group of FAs for more than 8 years? Some of these 410 likely have in excess to 10 years in at AA and have probabaly been furloughed before?

User currently offlineSkygypsy From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5378 times:

Management at AA needs to get serious about an early out for flight attendants like Delta has offered. There is great stagnation among the ranks--we need new, fresh blood (a new uniform woundn't hurt either!). We are becoming a geriatric force--in a couple of years, there won't be anyone employed as a flight attendant in their 20's. Basically a generation has been wiped out of our work force.

I feel sorry for the younger generation that may have grown up wanting to become a flight attendant. (It has changed drastically in the last few years, but it is still a desirable job, otherwise people wouldn't hold on for so long..........) Because of circumstances and events, their dreams were never even a possibility. And it seems as though those of us at the bottom of the ranks are only here to serve the higher ranks and make their life better and give them a sense of security. Though there is no one "junior" anymore--those at the bottom have around 10 years experience, and those at the very bottom are TWA--even more experience. And also in a couple of years, the whole flight attendant group will be maxed out on the pay scale.

Don't get me wrong--I still like what I do and feel very fortunate to still have a job after all that has happened in our industry in the last few years.......and with the economy now. But I have to ask myself, is this it? Is there anything to look forward to? Movement in the system? Getting off reserve? (Ha! NEVER!!!) Holding a desirable vacation, a desirable line, Christmas with my family? Will it EVER be my turn?


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5274 times:
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Quoting Skygypsy (Reply 6):
Though there is no one "junior" anymore--those at the bottom have around 10 years experience, and those at the very bottom are TWA--even more experience. And also in a couple of years, the whole flight attendant group will be maxed out on the pay scale.

I believe that most of the ex-TWA F/As have been furloughed already. You are correct when you say that there are no more junior F/A's at AA. The F/A's that only have between 10-12 years seniority with AA need to remain cautious. And of course the many AA F/A's that have over 20 years seniority have nothing to worry about.

Quoting Skygypsy (Reply 6):
Getting off reserve? (Ha! NEVER!!!) Holding a desirable vacation, a desirable line, Christmas with my family? Will it EVER be my turn?

I know, its getting harder and harder to hold trips, and everyone seems to be flying high-time. Many domestic F/A's here at MIA recently switched over to international because domestic is very senior at the moment. However, we all know that the aviation industry tends to be cyclical and before you know it, some F/A's will be recalled when the economy improves.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5235 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
I believe that most of the ex-TWA F/As have been furloughed already.

I sat next to and had a nice chat with an ex-TW AA F/A in January this year when she was commuting home to CVG on a DL flight and she told me she had been furloughed twice and was just recalled in 2008 again.....sadly, she was once again expecting to be furloughed some time in 2009 due to her "juniority". Despite this, she still appeared to have a fantastic attitude, and even though she wasn't working then, I gave her three AApplause certificates by the end of the flight!


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
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Quoting Panamair (Reply 8):
I sat next to and had a nice chat with an ex-TW AA F/A in January this year when she was commuting home to CVG on a DL flight and she told me she had been furloughed twice and was just recalled in 2008 again.....sadly, she was once again expecting to be furloughed some time in 2009 due to her "juniority". Despite this, she still appeared to have a fantastic attitude,

I also know a really nice ex-TWA F/A who was based at DCA and commuted home to MIA, and her in-flight service was amazing! She was also very cheerful and professional even though she was furloughed before. However, she opted for an early retirement last January.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3650 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

How much does that suck to be a nAAtive F/A and get furloughed after working 10 years? I'm sure they never imagined they'd have this type of job (in)security at 10 years.

Or even worse, to be a 30 year ex-TW vet and get perpetually stuck on reserve flying crap routes after having flown the premier international routes for TW. I personally know a few "senior" ex-TW F/As, those that had the means and the seniority retired and retained their benefits before their furlough ran out - or recalled.



PHX based
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4922 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 1):
I just want to see an airline announce flight crew reductions together, say in this case, 410 f/a's and 50 pilots, sort of keep the crew spirit together.

So you think 50 pilots should be furloughed for no other reason than crew spirit? Exactly how will that increase crew spirit? Any furlough period dot will drag down crew spirit. I don't think any of the UAL F/A's or pilots that are getting furloughed have any additional spirit despite being furloughed together.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4759 times:



Quoting Skygypsy (Reply 6):
And it seems as though those of us at the bottom of the ranks are only here to serve the higher ranks and make their life better and give them a sense of security.

Think of it from the passenger's perspective...

Many very often report they get better service on RJs and with newer FAs because they are still happy to be working and haven't become jaded and cynical. When pax fly on the most desirable routes, they get the most haggered senior crew who has come to see all customers and the airline as merely a way to serve THEM, their lifestyle, their retirement, etc...

How about flight attendants get the best assignments based on performance instead of seniority?

Cairo


User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4578 times:



Quoting Cairo (Reply 12):
Think of it from the passenger's perspective...

Many very often report they get better service on RJs and with newer FAs because they are still happy to be working and haven't become jaded and cynical. When pax fly on the most desirable routes, they get the most haggered senior crew who has come to see all customers and the airline as merely a way to serve THEM, their lifestyle, their retirement, etc...

How about flight attendants get the best assignments based on performance instead of seniority?

This is exactly how it needs to be done. I've NEVER had a bad RJ F/A, while i've had a few bad senior F/As who look like they'd been around since the days of the DC-3. I'm not saying that there is anything bad with senior F/As, and I'm not saying that every RJ F/A is great, but F/A layoffs and promotions should be based on job performance, not when the F/A was hired. There is also a safety concern with senior F/As, can 70 year old F/As still open heavy doors in emergency mode? Can they still defend the flight deck? Can they help carry passengers out of a crashed airplane? Can they life 50ILB window exits? F/As love to brag about safety (For good reason of course, they deserve so much respect for what they go through) but I doubt some of them would be able to perform in an emergency.

If airlines cared about the service there F/As offered, and actually did something about it when they received complaint letters from customers, like give the F/As warning or downgrade them if they received to many complaints, or fired them, it would feed out a lot of the bad F/As and allow the good ones to keep their jobs. Some of the bad F/As love to use safety as an excuse to be lazy. I understand the role F/As play in cabin safety and truly respect them for that, and I understand that, that is the primary reason they are there. If F/As weren't required by the FAA I'm sure they would have been axed from most domestic flights. But they also have a customer service role when their safety skills aren't needed. Those that announce that there primarily here for your safety and do the absolute minimum service wise, most likely aren't going to start caring about you if the plane looses both engines and makes a water landing. We all have bad days, but its not an excuse to stop doing our jobs. If things are going so badly that you aren't able to do your job you need to call in sick. We know your pay has been cut, we know your hours are long, but you still show up for work and are expected to do your job. If its so bad either work with your union or management to fix it or quit. Don't take it out on the passengers.

Now to all the good F/As, thank you so much for what you do. You put your lives on the line for us, maybe not everyday, but anytime there's a problem your there for us. So, as cheesy as this sounds, from the bottom of my heart, thankyou!



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1878 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

The point is we are only required for your safety- as far as customer service is concerned we are constantly at the brunt of our management's greed and cuts, we are left to be the object of passenger aggrevation, and you wonder why we want you to shut up and stop complaining? You would think that with the widely publicized class differences, and more or less restraint on the middle class, the average airline passenger would complain that upper management needs to take the cuts and not them.


Additionally why should FAs be help accountable because ignorant passengers who don't know how to listen decide to become offended and contact customer relations because THEY are unable to turn their cell phone off after being asked seven times, or because they think for some reason we should serve you sixteen drinks on a two hour flight. People are absolutely terrible these days on airplanes, rude, and annoying to have to be around.

For those of you passengers that are considerate and use mannors, thank you very much its always a pleasure to have you in the sky, and believe me your flight attendants really appreciate it- often in the galley we recognize you "Hey 17D was a real nice guy I'm going to go check on him, see if he needs something else." With that positive attitude we will ensure your needs are met more appropriately than the absolutely rude and classless people typically flying around you.

As far as comment cards are concerned and performance related trip placement, what a joke! And being fired- well the smart airlines have something called a union for that- hopefully our brothers and sisters at the new Delta will look forward with open minds to union representation- in today's airline enviornment its a neccesity!


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25423 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 12):
How about flight attendants get the best assignments based on performance instead of seniority?

   Excellent idea, however one that sadly will not see day light in a unionized American industry

Many of the worlds top service organizations and airlines recognize this and hold their employees accountable to provide exemplary service. Just as with how the sales rep at Nordstrom’s success is dependent on their customer service and people skills so is the FA's at many such carriers. Additionally unlike the US, FA's are not hired in perpetuity, and cant lounge about as seniority increases but are employed on clear 2, 3 or 5 year contracts which the company may or may not renew or have clear maximum career life spans of 10-20 years.

Additionally employees daily performance is measured based on everything from grooming standards, to customer input, to peer review, and are not subject to the cumbersome, and near impossible contractual shackles labor agreements create around disciplinary process which basically serve as a big brick wall shielding employees from their actions, or inactions in many casses.

Maybe one day, US airlines will get on the band wagon and understand that seniority based systems tend to deliver ever diminishing returns in service, instead of being able to hire young, enthused folks that want to be there, and are happy to perform to the highest levels of customer service. But in reality, I figure US airline service levels will continue to decline as our foreign peers continue to excel.

p.s.-I suppose an appropriate comment I recently heard was based customer feedback about United's new international premium product. Customers would never know they were on UA if not having to experience the typical FA. People love the seats and IFE, but the soft service touches bring one back to reality of being on just another UA flight.

[Edited 2009-02-27 19:34:07]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4266 times:



Quoting Flyboy80 (Reply 14):
The point is we are only required for your safety- as far as customer service is concerned we are constantly at the brunt of our management's greed and cuts, we are left to be the object of passenger aggrevation, and you wonder why we want you to shut up and stop complaining?

Last time I checked, you still had service responsibilities and outside the rare case of an emergency your required to perform them. I don't want to sound mean but F/As love to use safety as an excuse to be lazy. I know its an extremely hard job, one I definitely would never be able to do, but putting up with crap from passengers is part of the customer service side of the F/A job. Does it make it ok that passengers are extremely rude? No, but it should be expected in any job where you have to deal with customers. The F/A career has changed dramatically over the years, if you find your unable to do the job properly or don't like the job then quit. As mean as this sounds they're plenty of people out there willing to do your job for less pay and more hours. For the record, I don't treat F/As as airborne waiters, I say please, thankyou, and always greet them when I get on and off the plane. I have an enormous amount of respect for the good F/As out there.

But of course airlines won't change and adopt the non-union method many foreign airlines use and their F/As have a consistent record for providing quality service. Maybe the US airlines will wake up and realize whats required to get good, consistent, customer service out of their F/As. Until that happens airlines only have themselves to blame for their bad customer service records.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineSkygypsy From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3970 times:

Like I said in a previous post, American needs new blood. It isn't healthy for any company airline or not to go so long without hiring. I wish they would scrap the seniority system--or figure a way for the good F/A's to sort of jump ahead, based on merit.

I wish there was a way to mix the crews on a regular basis, so each and every flight had a balance of new vs experienced, young vs old. I think when you have an all senior crew, many times these people have been working with each other for years--and are aware of their work habits and personalities, so you compensate for their laziness, attitude, etc.--which isn't a good thing. And the younger crews don't always do what they're supposed to either, and they can also lack professionalism.


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3778 times:



Quoting Skygypsy (Reply 17):
Like I said in a previous post, American needs new blood. It isn't healthy for any company airline or not to go so long without hiring. I wish they would scrap the seniority system--or figure a way for the good F/A's to sort of jump ahead, based on merit.

I wish there was a way to mix the crews on a regular basis, so each and every flight had a balance of new vs experienced, young vs old. I think when you have an all senior crew, many times these people have been working with each other for years--and are aware of their work habits and personalities, so you compensate for their laziness, attitude, etc.--which isn't a good thing. And the younger crews don't always do what they're supposed to either, and they can also lack professionalism.

The problem with a merit based system is it is damn near impossible to implement in an operation on the scale of a major international airline. It might work at a small carrier (and I mean really small). The other issue to combat on the merit scale is the inherant tendencies and biases of those who judge. I have seen the merit system hard at work in a few places and the results are not always for the best either. All it takes is one lousy manager that advances anyone who is a kiss ass yesman regardless of ability and the merit system is out the window and unfair.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3768 times:
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Quoting DualQual (Reply 18):
The problem with a merit based system is it is damn near impossible to implement in an operation on the scale of a major international airline.

Not to mention that many of AA's F/As joined AA from AirCal, Eastern Airlines, Reno Air, etc. With the TWA F/A's leaving, AA's most "junior" F/As will have at least 10 years with the company.


User currently offlineTothestars From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3685 times:

Look for the customer satisfaction levels to go down again at American Airlines. The former TW f/a's had been back for a relativly short time and were still happy to be flying and it showed. Now with the most junior nAAtive f/a on the very bottom again it's not going to be pretty.


TWA-Airline To the Stars
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2363 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3645 times:



Quoting Tothestars (Reply 20):
Look for the customer satisfaction levels to go down again at American Airlines. The former TW f/a's had been back for a relativly short time and were still happy to be flying and it showed. Now with the most junior nAAtive f/a on the very bottom again it's not going to be pretty.

Very bold statement. If there are no more TW Crews left in the system, how do you know that the most junior AA Crews are working the flight? In fact, right now there are mixed junior/TW Crews flying around the system. How would you know? And do you fly enough to know the difference?

Pretty much just your biased opinion. And I will tell you that The TW Crews that are still around are the ones that are caring, and not bitter.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineTothestars From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3600 times:



Quoting AA767400 (Reply 21):
Pretty much just your biased opinion. And I will tell you that The TW Crews that are still around are the ones that are caring, and not bitter.

I know this, and I also know that customer service satisfaction has gone up in LGA, BOS, and ORD, and any other base that the TWA people were recalled to. I think it stands to reason that it's going to go down again once they're kicked to the curb again.



TWA-Airline To the Stars
User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Yeah, I agree. American carriers need to adopt the system lot

Quoting DualQual (Reply 18):
The problem with a merit based system is it is damn near impossible to implement in an operation on the scale of a major international airline.

How do airlines like SQ, QR, Kingfisher, MH, CP, and AS do it? They're all relatively large airlines, yet have extremely high customer service ratings.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25423 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3302 times:

Final numbers are out following those willing to take voluntary leaves -- 323 furloughs eff 4/1


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 25, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3229 times:



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 23):
How do airlines like SQ, QR, Kingfisher, MH, CP, and AS do it? They're all relatively large airlines, yet have extremely high customer service ratings.

Those airlines don't employ anywhere near the 17,000 flight attendants AA employs, which is down from a high of 23,000 in 2001.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... the unions aren't to blame. It all boils down to the company. AA very rarely enforces anything, unless it's safety related, and that has nothing to do with the union. Furthermore, Southwest has consistently high rankings, yet their F/As are unionized, same as AS. Read below:

Quoting Flyboy80 (Reply 14):
as far as customer service is concerned we are constantly at the brunt of our management's greed and cuts, we are left to be the object of passenger aggrevation

We are, just as the passengers are, at the mercy of management and the endlessly ignorant and short sited decisions they make. Flight attendants have the longest contact in the customer service chain, and believe me, we hear you, and 99% of the time we agree with you. We are at our wits end too, and unfortunately, sometimes the frustration passengers express gets directed right back at them. Appropriate? No. But nonetheless, it's frustration pure and simple. We would like more than ever to offer you a meal, give you a pillow, show you a movie and allow you to chose from several magazines to read. A happy customer is an easier customer, and we all like easy.

Another thought, flight attendants hate saying no just as much as passengers hate hearing it. When it comes to safety and the rules, whether you like them or not, we would much rather have the pax comply then have to intervene. But if they don't comply, we must intervene or we face monetary penalties from the FAA. More and more pax don't comply with the rules... rules F/As have zero input on. Why doesn't AA allow GPS's inflight when nearly every other US airline does? I don't know. But I have to tell you to put it away, and chances are, you won't like me for it. But alas, my job is more important than your satisfaction, and I will only stress, as I do on a daily basis... I agree. 99% of the time we agree, but are powerless to do anything about it. I know pax are frustrated, more than ever, I just wish, more than ever, they'd direct that frustration people, rather than the one who happens to be standing in front of them.

Do you ever wonder how much flight attendant service scores truly rely on the flight attendant themselves? I do, and my guess is very little. Take for example customer satisfaction scores after "More Room Throughout Coach" was implemented. Everything from food quantity and quality to flight attendant friendliness improved even though the only thing that changed was seat pitch. The same trend happens in reverse, take away MRTC and suddenly the food isn't as good and the flight attendants aren't as nice. Now go a step further and take away all the food, and the pillows, and a clean cabin for that matter, and see how the flight attendant service scores are affected. Even if the F/As demeanor was identical, their scores will still suffer as a knock-on effect of the other cuts.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
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