Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
CM Looses One Frequency To CCS, VLN In Limbo  
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

CM has lost the temporary right it had to operate one daily PTY-CCS frequency and the VLN flight is in limbo after the Venezuelan government has not extended the temporary permit which allowed CM to operate the flight, the current permit ends March 1st and flights are not bookable from that day forward. CM is trying to resolve the issue but with only 3 days left in February it is highly unlikely anything will happen.

http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/co...009/02/26/hoy/negocios/1706699.asp

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Dealing with Venezuelan authorities has to be a royal pain.
I wonder what they base their decision on granting / denying, extending or not permissons.
I wonder if AeroRepublica will be affected when it comes to their renewal of BOG-CCS and MDE-CCS.
Avianca will be starting its second daily BOG-VLN, that is good for connections to MIA, but little else.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

I don't want to bring politics into this discussion but wasn't Venezuela supposed to teach us Latinoamerianos about "Hermandad Bolivariana" being both Venezuela and Panamá Países Bolivarianos. It's only empty words not really having anything to do with Civil Aviation.

I would guess some Venezuelans are angry foreign airlines (read AA, CM among them) are really cashing on the country's international traffic while the Venezuelan airlines don't.
What a difference when it comes to Cuba and Panamá. Cuba allows CM to fly to HAV 4 times per day and most likely would like to see CM fly to SCU too.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6163 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

There is probably more here that we are seeing guys.

Having been part of the negotiation on new routes i nthe region, I can tell you there is a lot of back door arm twisting, outside the house negotiation and under the table considerations at play.

Surely, when dealing with Hugo this is no different.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3565 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 3):
Having been part of the negotiation on new routes i nthe region, I can tell you there is a lot of back door arm twisting, outside the house negotiation and under the table considerations at play.

It's interesting to note that Venezuela's neighbors Curaçao and Trinidad and Tobago rarely have issues with INAC.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3535 times:



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 1):
I wonder if AeroRepublica will be affected when it comes to their renewal of BOG-CCS and MDE-CCS.

P5 Venezuela flighs are covered by an Andean Countries Open Skies agreement. However that only applies to Colombian airlines not to Panamanian, so if Venezuela chooses to define P5 as Panamanian not Colombian airline, Venezuela could stop those P5 flights.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4):
It's interesting to note that Venezuela's neighbors Curaçao and Trinidad and Tobago rarely have issues with INAC.

In many Venezuelans minds those islands and Guyana are under their sphere of influence and thus might be treated different. My neighbours are kind of my own backyard attitude.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3524 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 5):
In many Venezuelans minds those islands and Guyana are under their sphere of influence and thus might be treated different. My neighbours are kind of my own backyard attitude.

Trinidad and Tobago is no way under Venezuela's "sphere of influence." However, both countries have had a liberal air treaty for years now. For example, Conviasa, Avior, and Rutaca are free to fly into POS from any point in Venezuela. Also, Venezuela and Guyana have bad relations due to an ongoing border dispute that has lasted for decades now.


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3477 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 5):
P5 Venezuela flighs are covered by an Andean Countries Open Skies agreement. However that only applies to Colombian airlines not to Panamanian, so if Venezuela chooses to define P5 as Panamanian not Colombian airline, Venezuela could stop those P5 flights

There may be an Andean pact, but that is not to say that Venezuela won't sleep on an application or find whatever reason not to comply. So AeroRepublica should not breathe easy. They have just started a second BOG-CCS frequency actually (and SBA is supposed to start that route on a shiny MD83 soon)
AV started the route CLO-MDE-CCS (after P5 announced theirs) and AV managed to serve it only for a week before permission was revoked! For weeks AV flew the domestic segments waiting for an approval, but it did not happen.


User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3441 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 5):

In many Venezuelans minds those islands and Guyana are under their sphere of influence and thus might be treated different. My neighbours are kind of my own backyard attitude.

Venezuela has tried to out maneuver T&T and has not been met with smiling faces from the T&T Gov't. Relations between Venezuela and T&T are civil but are certainly not friendly. I understand that there is a sort of mutual respect, but relations have been quite icy. Yet flights have never been affected. I believe it is because POS is quite a lucrative destination for Venezuelan carriers and any attempt to prevent BW from flying to CCS would result in retaliation which would inevitably hurt the very weak Venezuelan carriers more than it would hurt BW. Further, looking to the future, Venezuela definitely sees the benefits of having the POS Gov't at least willing to co-operate seeing as further integration within the Caribbean islands will be centred around T&T.

Apologies for the somewhat political blurb!

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):

Trinidad and Tobago is no way under Venezuela's "sphere of influence." However, both countries have had a liberal air treaty for years now. For example, Conviasa, Avior, and Rutaca are free to fly into POS from any point in Venezuela. Also, Venezuela and Guyana have bad relations due to an ongoing border dispute that has lasted for decades now.

Very true.

Is most of the traffic between Venezuela and Panama connecting to the US or O&D? If it is connecting then a reduction by CM could lead to new opportunities via POS and CUR to North America!

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3434 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 8):
s most of the traffic between Venezuela and Panama connecting to the US or O&D?

I would say about 50/50, Venezuelans, thanks to Huguito have quickly become a large portion of the population in Panama City, it is also a very popular shopping destination because of the Dollar and not needing a visa, which makes it difficult for some to visit the US.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3419 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 8):
Venezuela has tried to out maneuver T&T and has not been met with smiling faces from the T&T Gov't. Relations between Venezuela and T&T are civil but are certainly not friendly. I understand that there is a sort of mutual respect, but relations have been quite icy.

This is true since Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana recently received visits from US/UK ships while Venezuela hosted some of their "friend's ships" in the Caribbean Sea.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 8):
f it is connecting then a reduction by CM could lead to new opportunities via POS and CUR to North America!

POS mostly receives Venezuelan students eager to learn English, those with family ties, and others who come to POS to get some R&R, and to use the ATM machines in POS!


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3347 times:

CM is alternatively offering CM/P5 PTY-MDE and then P5 MDE-CCS and back. The possibility of CM/P5 PTY-BOG and immediately P5 BOG-CCS is also affordable into its website.
The mentioned allocations substitute the demise of the third frequency into the nonstop CM PTY-CCS.
CM PTY-CCS is granting excellent yields for the airline as they commonly deploy their 738s in their current 2x daily flights, which are their best assets of their entire fleet. Their fares usually start at $700.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3329 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 11):
CM PTY-CCS is granting excellent yields for the airline as they commonly deploy their 738s in their current 2x daily flights, which are their best assets of their entire fleet. Their fares usually start at $700.

Caribbean Airlines is also hesitant in increasing frequency on the POS-CCS route as it commands very high-yields. Fares on the route average around 600 USD.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3309 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12):
Caribbean Airlines is also hesitant in increasing frequency on the POS-CCS route as it commands very high-yields. Fares on the route average around 600 USD.

all fares between venezuela - and the northern-southamerican and carribean countrys are high yield...

Looks like the Venezulean government is doing again a great job...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/co...009/02/27/hoy/negocios/1707963.asp

http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/co...009/02/27/hoy/negocios/1707211.asp

Venezuelan government is now saying they have the right to decide who flies to Venezuela and they feel that the flights are not socially justified!

Looks like Huguito is mad and trying to restrict travel outside of Venezuela, he says that the flight is not important because more people go to Panama than those who go to Valencia.

Looks like Panama cant retaliate because these flights are outside of the bilateral so Venezolana is safe.

[Edited 2009-02-27 07:14:10]

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3150 times:



Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
Venezuelan government is now saying they have the right to decide who flies to Venezuela and they feel that the flights are not socially justified!

But don't those flights have immediate connections with CM's HAV flights?
Isn't that reason enough for the Venezuelan government to define as socially justified for the VLN passengers?
 hyper 



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineCivilav From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3080 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 15):
But don't those flights have immediate connections with CM's HAV flights?

That was a great one.... You really made me laugh.

In all honesty, as far as I am told, the INAC will apparently stick to what is stipulated in the current bilateral between both countries, namely, 2 daily frequencies to Caracas and up to 1 daily to Maracaibo.

On some days of the week, Copa serves Maracaibo with a 737-800 too instead of the smaller 700.

Greetings from Cancun


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

From the above press release in Spanish:

“Se ha notado que la mayor afluencia de pasajeros es de Venezuela a Panamá. Si hubiese un equilibrio entre ambos flujos, la ruta tendría una justificación social y turística”.

This argument does not make any sense of logic.
For instance, AA MIA-LIR is essentially catering passengers originated by far mostly at MIA.
Business is essentially dictatorial in this industry; however I don't want to bring political matters in this forum dedicated to aviation.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineJigarciar From Colombia, joined May 2005, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2971 times:



Quoting Summa767 (Reply 7):
There may be an Andean pact, but that is not to say that Venezuela won't sleep on an application or find whatever reason not to comply. So AeroRepublica should not breathe easy. They have just started a second BOG-CCS frequency actually (and SBA is supposed to start that route on a shiny MD83 soon)

Since Venezuela left the Andean Community, the Andean rules are not actually applicable between Colombia and Venezuela. But there is a bilateral agreement signed back in 1991, which is almost an open skies agreement between both countries.

AeroRepública S.A. is a corporation domiciled in Colombia and, thereof, it will not be limited by the bilateral between Panama and Venezuela. If law is respected, AeroRepública can not be treated as Panamanian, even though its major stockholder is Copa.

Indeed, as Civilav stated, it seems that the INAC is strictly applying the bilateral agreement between Panama and Venezuela. But is not nice to see such restrictions between Latinamerican countries, when we must be together and looking forward on trying to remove borders between us.

These are just good news for AV, that will begin its second daily frequency on the BOG-VLN-BOG route on this Monday. Also for the unbeatable BOG-CCS-BOG route.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2856 times:

I would think CM should keep quiet and don't push the extra CCS daily frequency and new VLC service too hard. CM is best to stick to the current bilateral allowing CCS twice daily and MAR daily for the time being.
Maybe in the near future, P5 may offer an evening BOG-VLC morning VLC-BOG to connect with P5/CM/CO flights an afternoon BOG-MAR-BOG and PTY-CUC-PTY to provide international flights to that part of the Colombian-Venezuelan border.

Now I think, if PTY-Venezuela flights have such a huge demand, Would the CCS route be so much worth to CM to even consider one B737-900ER only for twice daily PTY-CCS-PTY?



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Do you think maybe P5 will start BOG-VLN with and add a 5th PTY-BOG?

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2758 times:



Quoting Luisca (Reply 20):
Do you think maybe P5 will start BOG-VLN with and add a 5th PTY-BOG?

The BOG-VLC I think might be in study rightnow at CM headquarters and the VLC R.O.N. alternative may be the most attractive for CM/P5/CO, a 5th CM/P5 BOG-PTY may not be allowed under the Colombia-Panamá bilateral; Not even AV may add extra BOG-PTY.
Again there's this element of how Venezuela's INAC would react to any new P5 applications.
I see more chance of a P5 CUC-PTY-CUC happening 1st.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

The only ones that will benefit from this are P5 and AV. The only ones that will, again, pay the price for stupid decisions, customers, who will have one less option to travel. Just like with AAs CCS-MIA......venezuelans ended up paying the price.....

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):
This argument does not make any sense of logic

Surprised?? This is just an example of decisions being made by Chavez regarding aviation (I got one better for you CCS-DAM......that really makes sense).

Quoting Jigarciar (Reply 18):
But is not nice to see such restrictions between Latinamerican countries, when we must be together and looking forward on trying to remove borders between us.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
Looks like the Venezulean government is doing again a great job...

There you have your so called "socialist revoution" or "bolivarian brotherhood".....yeah right...

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 2):
Cuba allows CM to fly to HAV 4 times per day and most likely would like to see CM fly to SCU too.

Castros know that brings tourism, and with tourism, usd and dollars come along, giving leaving some beneftis to the country and its people......sometimes.

Sorry for letting my polical persona in the forums, but sometimes I just REALLY don't understand this Chavez guy.

Cheers,

777jaah



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Seems like for now CM will continue to operate VLN normally until further notice

http://www.copaair.com/nuestraempres...noticias/noticia.aspx?ID=158〈=en


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2640 times:



Quoting Luisca (Reply 23):
Seems like for now CM will continue to operate VLN normally until further notice

I just want to assume that some high-ranking Chávez government official in Valencia noticed that without CM VLC flight, the journey between VLC and HAV would surely be a tedious one.  twocents 



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
25 AA1818 : Seems like Trinidad's National carrier Caribbean Airlines has been authorized to increase services between CCS and POS from daily to 10x weekly with a
26 Post contains links Luisde8cd : President Torrijos is visiting Venezuela tomorrow March 3rd. Maybe he will try to convince Hugo to let CM restart its 3rd daily? http://www.eluniversa
27 SJOtoLIR : CM is not aiming for larger planes into the profitable segment CCS-PTY and back. As pointing out before, the possibility of connections to Caracas on
28 CayMan : Likely to see a lot of capacity reductions into Venezuela generally first as the annual dollar allowance has been cut by more than half but also as th
29 SJOtoLIR : AA DFW-CCS 1x weekly with 757 is surviving after all. It's hard to explain the permanence of this segment. Regards.
30 2travel2know : It seems AA keeps flying that route once weekly to avoid Venezuela taking back the authority INAC has given AA to fly that route. However, I wonder h
31 SCL767 : I wonder if INAC will ever approve NK's application for FLL-CCS? Maybe if the new US Administration and Venezuela move forward in a positive directio
32 Summa767 : P5 is now operating a second daily BOG-CCS-BOG. The outbound leaves BOG at 8.40pm, and overnigts in CCS to return early morning. Connections through
33 Post contains links Luisde8cd : " target=_blank>http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/03/0...shtml As I predicted, in the joint declaration given by both presidents tonight; they mentione
34 Post contains links 2travel2know : Latest on CM VLN flight from La Prensa, in Spanish. CM will continue selling tickets on their VLN flight until the end of the month. The Venezuelan A
35 Summa767 : AV has also fell foul of Venezuela's INAC: 2 of the 7 weekly frequencies have been revoked, so no even less chance of AV flying a second daily as it h
36 2travel2know : I was thinking if Venezuela complains that the traffic goes from Venezuela to Panamá (and other destinations) but not the other way around, Venezuela
37 Orl777 : Now seems to be that AV Cancel one of their 5 Daily services to Caracas, one morning flight is not showing anymore in the AV website... I don´t know
38 Summa767 : That flight is showing from the 16th March. However, I would not bet on it staying, as I can only imagine that this suspension is also to do with INA
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Aeromexico To CCS In July? -Rumor- posted Thu May 15 2008 17:54:54 by Luisde8cd
One Bag Rule To Be Relaxed In The UK posted Tue Nov 13 2007 23:57:34 by 747438
DL Flights To Multiple Airports In One Metro Area posted Thu Jan 27 2005 07:27:34 by USrampleadSTL
My NW Flight To KIX Isn't In The Timetable! posted Sat Feb 21 2009 08:39:30 by 9W748Capt
AmericanConnection To Eagle Changes In STL. posted Tue Feb 17 2009 18:56:43 by EGLboi
CX Cargo To MIA, IAH In March posted Mon Feb 2 2009 18:27:16 by MAH4546
All Nippon To Take 787's In February 2010 posted Mon Feb 2 2009 08:11:57 by ArabAirX
NW 333 To VCV Now In DL Colors posted Wed Jan 14 2009 19:19:55 by GEG2RAP
CAL 5355 ATL To SEA Stopping In MEM posted Sat Dec 6 2008 07:27:20 by JetJeanes
Delta To Reduce Capacity In 2009 posted Tue Dec 2 2008 05:58:12 by Jamake1