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Delta Technicians Remain Non-Union  
User currently offlineFFLyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6784 times:

With this announcement, what will be next for unions on the New Delta property? Are the Flight Attendants and Customer Service/Rampers of NWA next to be decertified or will they be successful at gaining unionization of the non-union Delta folks??

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Delta-...ans-to-Remain-prnews-14480619.html

122 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlanefxr From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6761 times:

It is all about numbers, and quite frankly NW technician's numbered less than 1000. A very small percentage of the merged airline. I think it will be very close with the flight attendants and customer service agents, however in the end I don't think they will be unionized either. Just my opinion.

User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1865 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6696 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Planefxr (Reply 1):
It is all about numbers, and quite frankly NW technician's numbered less than 1000. A very small percentage of the merged airline. I think it will be very close with the flight attendants and customer service agents, however in the end I don't think they will be unionized either. Just my opinion.

The same applies to the rest of the airline. Delta staff is above NWA on almost every department



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6619 times:

It is highly doubtful that rampers and customer service personnel could mobilize enough votes to bring a union to DL. The longer they draw out the process of trying to bring in a union, they lose compensation they could have under DL's pay plans.

The only real discussion is going to be about the FAs and it is doubtful they will succeed given that a huge number of DL FAs who voted for a union in the past did so because of a fear of DL being acquired. Given that there is no threat to DL FAs except from the AFA, it is doubtful they will support a union. Those who think NW FAs will continue to support AFA might look at how many FAs DL has hired and acquired from other airlines and many of those are the most anti-union at DL. They recognize the value of not having unions taking money yet being unable to do much when tough times come in the industry.


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6531 times:

This isn't too much of a surprise. NWA didn't have all that many mechanics, and a lot of them weren't too high on AMFA.

Quoting FFLyerWorld (Thread starter):
Are the Flight Attendants and Customer Service/Rampers of NWA next to be decertified or will they be successful at gaining unionization of the non-union Delta folks??

FAs probably won't make it, and I wouldn't count on the CSA election being successful from a union standpoint. However, from all I gather, the ramp has at least a fighting chance to go union.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1081 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6493 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

AMFA was NOT much of a union and that is being generous. They became representatives of the mechanics and cleaners by making promises that were out of this world. In 2005, AMFA led the mechanics and cleaners down a suicidal road and struck Northwest Airlines, which was totally committed and prepared to the breaking of AMFA.
I retired in April, 2005 as a Lead Technician, Crew Chief. The last 18 months I was with Northwest, I had very little work for me and my crew as the company was farming out as much work as it could in preparation for a strike with AMFA. NWA also had aircraft parked in the desert to use for training of replacement workers. I believe that NWA was also planning its bankruptcy after the strike at the same time. I retired at 62 with 37 years of service to avoid the oncoming disaster that I thought was on the way.  old 


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2088 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

Great news indeed. Now I hope that the F/A's and ACS folks do the same.

User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6321 times:

My 2 cents...

1. Above wing ACS will go non-union.
2. Flight Attendants will go union
3. Below wing ACS will go union.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The only real discussion is going to be about the FAs and it is doubtful they will succeed given that a huge number of DL FAs who voted for a union in the past did so because of a fear of DL being acquired. Given that there is no threat to DL FAs except from the AFA, it is doubtful they will support a union. Those who think NW FAs will continue to support AFA might look at how many FAs DL has hired and acquired from other airlines and many of those are the most anti-union at DL. They recognize the value of not having unions taking money yet being unable to do much when tough times come in the industry.

Contrary to your belief many flight attendants at Delta did not vote in 2008 because management led them to believe that without a union Delta could do better in seniority integration compared to the union date of hire policy, we now know that was a lie so this could motivate more to vote this time around. Also keep in mind that over 800 retired from Delta in 2008 including 450 from the predominantly anti-union ATL base.
NW f/a's will not make the mistake to go non-union, they know exacly what the Richard Anderson regime is capable of...they witnessed it first hand.

I also believe the ramp guys will vote in the IAM. Just look at the comparison of how many stations NW ramp has compared to DL ramp. I believe its something like 12 for Delta and 40 nofr Northwest. This is due to the contractual language the NW rampers have, the NW ramp will receive over 80% support from their side, those on the DL side should be wise enough to vote for a legally binding contract and prevent any further outsourcing.


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6293 times:



Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 6):
Now I hope that the F/A's and ACS folks do the same.

And why is that? What is it with the union dislike down at DL?

Quoting OOer (Reply 7):
Just look at the comparison of how many stations NW ramp has compared to DL ramp.

This has been a big selling point for the IAM. Without representation, DL can do whatever they please. If they say "don't bother to come in tomorrow, you're being outsourced," that's it. No recourse. You're gone. At least with a union, you have some binding language that the union can hold the company to. NWA tried sweeping outsourcing on the CSAO side before, and the union was able to preserve at least the jobs in the cities that still have mainline employees. I'm not the biggest fan of the IAM; there are many things I think they could do better, but paying dues and having a job is better than no dues and no job with the economy in the state it is.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6206 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 8):
This has been a big selling point for the IAM. Without representation, DL can do whatever they please. If they say "don't bother to come in tomorrow, you're being outsourced," that's it. No recourse. You're gone. At least with a union, you have some binding language that the union can hold the company to. NWA tried sweeping outsourcing on the CSAO side before, and the union was able to preserve at least the jobs in the cities that still have mainline employees. I'm not the biggest fan of the IAM; there are many things I think they could do better, but paying dues and having a job is better than no dues and no job with the economy in the state it is.

Im not agreeing or diaagreeing with a union or not, But I do wanna say......DL's ramp has been this way forever......the IAM has failed tons of times, so im not sure why they would be anymore votes on the DL side then anytime before. The reason you said abouve (like i said) isn't new. Shouldn't draw out to many more votes.
IMHO AFA has the best shot. IAM has little to no chance.



yep.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6168 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
However, from all I gather, the ramp has at least a fighting chance to go union.

Don't see it. I'm a strong believer that anything is possible so I will agree that they have a "fighting chance" just on the matter but anything beyond that, I don't know.

They tried to unionize the ramp some time back in 2006-2007 I believe and it was a faliure, just as the many times before. I saw the many union posters and flyers all over the break rooms and everyone I talked to didn't really seem to care.

Quoting OOer (Reply 7):
3. Below wing ACS will go union.

Again, I don't know about that one.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
DL's ramp has been this way forever......the IAM has failed tons of times, so im not sure why they would be anymore votes on the DL side then anytime before.

 checkmark 



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6082 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
the IAM has failed tons of times, so im not sure why they would be anymore votes on the DL side then anytime before.

Well, old DL's not running the show anymore. There's a whole lot of people from NWA at the top now, many of which have a goodly amount have experience dealing with labor. If I was at DL, I'd see that as some sort of motivation for voting pro-union. In addition, they weren't voting with the NWA ramp before, which has the most comparable amount of employees on either side of any work group. However, I can see why the DL folks don't think they need a union. There's nothing more to cut there. DL has got it pared down to hubs and cities where you couldn't really make an argument that it makes sense to outsource. But for those of us in the size cities DL has eliminated before, bringing in the union is important. I know DL has said they plan to keep inhouse ramp in cities where NWA has people and DL doesn't, but there's nothing really to hold them to actually doing that.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineRivervisual From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

NW has more ramp stations but DL has more ramp employees. a lot of folks at NW dont care much for the IAM, especially with the latest dues increase. many of the NW stations have very few employees on the ramp.

so, unless the IAM can convince fairly large numbers of DL rampers that they can offer something better than what they have now it will be tough for them to avoid decertification.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6063 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 11):


Well, old DL's not running the show anymore. There's a whole lot of people from NWA at the top now, many of which have a goodly amount have experience dealing with labor. If I was at DL, I'd see that as some sort of motivation for voting pro-union. In addition, they weren't voting with the NWA ramp before, which has the most comparable amount of employees on either side of any work group. However, I can see why the DL folks don't think they need a union. There's nothing more to cut there. DL has got it pared down to hubs and cities where you couldn't really make an argument that it makes sense to outsource. But for those of us in the size cities DL has eliminated before, bringing in the union is important. I know DL has said they plan to keep inhouse ramp in cities where NWA has people and DL doesn't, but there's nothing really to hold them to actually doing that.

I mean i'm not saying they should or shouldn't go I'm just saying why (IMO) they wont. I do see what your saying though.

Quoting OOer (Reply 7):
1. Above wing ACS will go non-union.
2. Flight Attendants will go union
3. Below wing ACS will go union.

BTW...........can they do that? Half of ACS goes one way the other half goes the other?



yep.
User currently offlineDl1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6006 times:



Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 5):
AMFA was NOT much of a union and that is being generous. They became representatives of the mechanics and cleaners by making promises that were out of this world. In 2005, AMFA led the mechanics and cleaners down a suicidal road and struck Northwest Airlines, which was totally committed and prepared to the breaking of AMFA.
I retired in April, 2005 as a Lead Technician, Crew Chief. The last 18 months I was with Northwest, I had very little work for me and my crew as the company was farming out as much work as it could in preparation for a strike with AMFA. NWA also had aircraft parked in the desert to use for training of replacement workers. I believe that NWA was also planning its bankruptcy after the strike at the same time. I retired at 62 with 37 years of service to avoid the oncoming disaster that I thought was on the way.

Not really a surprise. I'd guess that AMFA was just as happy to get rid of nwa/dl as nwa/dl was to get rid of AMFA. How many scabs are there at nwa and most of the dl AMT's aren't interested in a union. They will sit around and complain about how dl is mis-treating them but they will just take it. I don't miss the complainers at all.

Anyway, congrats to you for 37 years of service and enjoy the retirement!


User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3385 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5985 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
so im not sure why they would be anymore votes on the DL side then anytime before. T

Maybe people over there are finally getting sick of the autocracy? Also, in the past, many at DL figured there was no chance since they knew they'd never outnumber ATL. This go around, there is A LOT of enthusiasm, as people know that when combined with NW's numbers, they actually have a chance.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 11):
know DL has said they plan to keep inhouse ramp in cities where NWA has people and DL doesn't, but there's nothing really to hold them to actually doing that.

"It is our intent."

"We'll look into that."

Actually, Anderson mentioned that after the vote, he'd look at the ramp staffing in each city on a station by station basis.

Quoting Rivervisual (Reply 12):
a lot of folks at NW dont care much for the IAM, especially with the latest dues increase. many of the NW stations have very few employees on the ramp.

Who's "a lot of folks?" Some people may not be 100% for the IAM, but are 100% for retaining representation.

What difference does the size of the station compliment make?

Quoting Rivervisual (Reply 12):
so, unless the IAM can convince fairly large numbers of DL rampers that they can offer something better than what they have now it will be tough for them to avoid decertification.

Seems like they're making inroads; why else would the A cards keep streaming in?

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
BTW...........can they do that? Half of ACS goes one way the other half goes the other?

Yes they can. It all depends on the class and craft determination made by the NMB. Remember, the ramp and CSA's at NW are already under 2 separate CBA's.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineRivervisual From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5943 times:



Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
Who's "a lot of folks?" Some people may not be 100% for the IAM, but are 100% for retaining representation.

What difference does the size of the station compliment make?

a lot of folks is a lot of folks - i dont have a specific number but based on what has been going around there are a significant number of people at NW who do not want the IAM anymore. I'm sure there are many DL rampers who do want a union this time around. I am just saying that there are enough DL rampers who will vote no when added to the NW rampers who dont want the IAM (which means they will vote NO) that any union vote will be close.

as far as the station size I was simply stating that just because NW has more ramp stations it does not mean that they have more rampers.

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
Seems like they're making inroads; why else would the A cards keep streaming in?

A cards dont mean everything ... people sign A cards but when it comes time to vote they dont always vote Union Yes.

Just my opinion .....


User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5938 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 8):
Without representation, DL can do whatever they please. If they say "don't bother to come in tomorrow, you're being outsourced," that's it. No recourse. You're gone.

That is exactly true in a non-union work environment. Without union representation, Delta could say, "We don't like anyone with brown eyes. Brown eyes are not consistent with Delta's image standards. Therefore, any non-union employee with brown eyes is terminated immediately." In an "employment at will" state like mine, that would be perfectly legal. I would have no legal recourse whatsoever.

Here is another example of a perfectly legal action on a company's part. In 30 states in the United States (Georgia being one of them), it is perfectly legal for a company to fire an employee solely on the basis of that employee's sexual orientation. A gay person could have 30 years with the company and be a model employee. If he or she had a homophobic boss, the gay employee could be fired on the spot simply for being gay. That employee would have no legal recourse whatsoever.

There is a lot of value in having union representation.


User currently offlineBinmonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5917 times:



Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
Seems like they're making inroads; why else would the A cards keep streaming in?

The IAM should have enough cards in their back pocket to file for 30% to call for a vote.

Since cards only allow a vote to be conducted, and people will just sign a card, then not vote.
I am not sure about the value of collecting more cards. Anyway if the IAM wants to file with NMB, they could file today.

Call for the vote, I'm ready either way, just want to move foward.


User currently offlineSYfan100 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5909 times:

What is Deltas benefit package like for the non union workers right now?
Is it just about the same as what Northwest union workers are gettting right now?
For those concerned about your union dues going up. Do not be afraid to speak up and ask where that money is going too. You have a right to get a clear cut answer.
If you do not like the clear cut answer you get then you can get the leadership out.
A union only gets better because of its members with in it.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5869 times:



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 17):

no disrespect but can we keep post like this out of this thread? If people do this then we end up in a union vs non-union pissing match. We all know by now why or why not to have a union so lets not make this 1001 thread on why to or why not to have a union.

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
Yes they can. It all depends on the class and craft determination made by the NMB. Remember, the ramp and CSA's at NW are already under 2 separate CBA's.

I wasn't sure if they are all one or its half and half.

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
Maybe people over there are finally getting sick of the autocracy?

maybe not likely but maube.

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
Also, in the past, many at DL figured there was no chance since they knew they'd never outnumber ATL.

plus LAX,JFK,LGA,MCO,CVG,SLC........all of these places more than likely feel safe. I'm not saying it wont happen *could careless* but i don't see it happening. IMHO the IAM will get a no then a few months later "Delta Air Lines replacings most below wing staions with DGS". Hope not but ill bet this is how things go down. best of luck NWAESC and KingAir(and the rest of the DL/NW ramp that i don't know are ramp)  Wink

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
This go around, there is A LOT of enthusiasm, as people know that when combined with NW's numbers, they actually have a chance.

we'll see. Read above on what i think will happen



yep.
User currently offlineOcracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5853 times:



Quoting OOer (Reply 7):
Contrary to your belief many flight attendants at Delta did not vote in 2008 because management led them to believe that without a union Delta could do better in seniority integration compared to the union date of hire policy, we now know that was a lie so this could motivate more to vote this time around.

Help me out...I'm somewhat confused over this comment. I though that it was a group of DL FAs that sat down and decided how the senority intergration would work. Not DL managemnt. So how did DL management lie if the FAs did the figuring out?

Quoting OOer (Reply 7):
Also keep in mind that over 800 retired from Delta in 2008 including 450 from the predominantly anti-union ATL base.

These 450 from the predominantly anti-union ATL based were not replaced by 450 new flight attendants in the very same anti-union ATL base?

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 8):
Without representation, DL can do whatever they please. If they say "don't bother to come in tomorrow, you're being outsourced," that's it. No recourse. You're gone. At least with a union, you have some binding language that the union can hold the company to



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 17):
That is exactly true in a non-union work environment. Without union representation, Delta could say, "We don't like anyone with brown eyes. Brown eyes are not consistent with Delta's image standards. Therefore, any non-union employee with brown eyes is terminated immediately."

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know too much about the IAM side vs. the DL side, but these two statements about having a contract will keep you from being immediately terminated seem to be false. I look at what happened to IAM 143 members over at Alaska Airlines in SEA back in 2005. They had a contract, and were told to go home one day, because they no longer had a job. Now some 4 years later, as far as I can tell, they still don't have a job, with the IAM only winning some "Alaska, you were wrong in firing them" court decision. Has anyone from IAM 143 gotten their jobs back? How much did their contract help them out in putting food on their table these past 4 years? If the IAM does win this case (I assume it will be dragged out in the courts for many years), are the Alaska Airline ramp members in SEA expecting back pay?
Honest questions here. I really would like some insight into this, not some pro-union or anti-union rah-ha-haa feedback. Thanks.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5839 times:



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 17):

Here is another example of a perfectly legal action on a company's part. In 30 states in the United States (Georgia being one of them), it is perfectly legal for a company to fire an employee solely on the basis of that employee's sexual orientation. A gay person could have 30 years with the company and be a model employee. If he or she had a homophobic boss, the gay employee could be fired on the spot simply for being gay. That employee would have no legal recourse whatsoever.

Thats great...if you work for a company other than Delta. Delta has a policy of non-discrimination based on sexual orientation and has had it for at least 15 years. I've never heard one legitimate example in that time of someone being fired because they were gay. Delta a valuable partner to gay organizations in the major markets it serves and is well respected on a national level, achieving a near perfect score on the Human Rights Campaign's National Equality Index.

In fact, you will find gay people all the way up to the highest levels of the company.

So why again is a union necessary for this protection?


User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5841 times:



Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 19):
What is Deltas benefit package like for the non union workers right now?
Is it just about the same as what Northwest union workers are gettting right now?

From what I've seen, it's not even close. NW employees have much better benefits.


User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5826 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 8):
What is it with the union dislike down at DL?

What is it with the fearmongering up at IAM?

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 11):
If I was at DL, I'd see that as some sort of motivation for voting pro-union

You're not and we don't.

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 15):
This go around, there is A LOT of enthusiasm, as people know that when combined with NW's numbers, they actually have a chance.

Sorry, but in all actuality, they really don't.

Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 17):
There is a lot of value in having union representation.

If you're an unproductive sloth, maybe. Far more often than not, I've seen a NW bird waiting to be marshalled in, when the crew should already be in place waiting for it to arrive. They know they don't have to hurry because the union will fight for their 'rights'.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
25 KingAir200 : I'm not intimately familiar with the situation over at AS, so I can't comment much on it. All I know is a union offers some protection that you would
26 Ocracoke : I can't answer for RWY04LGA, but waiting in a plane to be parked has happened 4 times to me this past summer in DTW. Twice on Airlink, and twice on N
27 Ocracoke : Oh. Forgot to add: (Edit doesn't want to work.) After seeing the Houston plane off, I walked down to the end of A concourse, got a bite to eat, and sa
28 OOer : In the 2008 AFA election, management kept telling flight attendants to not vote because with the merger they would be able to get them a seniority in
29 Rwy04LGA : Yes and yes. Mind you, this is based on personal observation, not hearsay.
30 Floridaflyboy : Just a point of clarification, Airlink ramp and gate are non-union. Of course, I understand it happens at mainline as well.
31 WorldTraveler : Since there is no data to support your assertion of why people did or did not vote, any reasons you provide are purely speculative. DL did not promis
32 Dalmd88 : I can't add much to the FA, Ramp or CSA union situations, but I saw the AMFA decert a long time ago. The numbers just weren't there for any union amon
33 KingAir200 : I wasn't there, so I don't know. I don't know what was going on there that day. There have been ramp staffing concerns in DTW for the last few years,
34 NWAdeicer : In response to OkraCoke' postings: What you have experienced, not with Airlink but with NW, is called "Real Time Staffing". This brilliant idea was de
35 Fleet Service : Let me ask you something, seeing as you have all the answers. Is it not out of the realm of possibility that the crew assigned to that flight is on a
36 Fleet Service : Hey, maybe it's Northwest airlines [i]policy[i/] that aircraft being moved on the ground have two wing walkers as well as a guide man? Anyone think o
37 Surprise : A couple of points have been brought up in this thread that concern me. First, planes holding out at the gate due to lack of ramp crew to bring them i
38 PagoFlyer : I think we all know that the unions always protect the "incompetent"!
39 Mayor : The two times I can remember the TWU trying to organize the ACS workers at DL, they failed miserably........the most they got was 17% yes votes. Durin
40 DELTA7478 : My 2 cents... 1. Above wing ACS will go non-union. 2. Flight Attendants will go union 3. Below wing ACS will go union. I don't think that's going to
41 NWAESC : There's 30% "automatically" with just us from NW. They'll file when they're confident they'll win. I'd rather wait and have them take longer to do it
42 DELTA7478 : Here's some fun math for you; By paying $46/mo., I save over $100 on medical costs. Tell me why that's bad. WOW, a 100 bucks, Well DL medical plan ha
43 Nwaesc : 0.00 Maybe you're loaded, but $100/mo. is a big deal to me. BTW, the $100.00 ($118, actually) is the difference between what we pay vs. what non-cont
44 Nwarooster : Yes, in almost any state a company can fire an employee for a good reason or a trumped up reason. You will be without a paycheck and job until you or
45 Surprise : Not sure who is correct here because this is what I'm reading, " If the Union decides not to present the grievance at arbitration the Union may, unde
46 DELTA7478 : seen a non union employee fired because he would not help his manager lay bricks at his manager's house. Yes, unions help keep idiots who do Well DL
47 NWAESC : My sentence should have said that arbitration costs were split between the co. & union... I've seen *maybe* 2 or 3 not go to arbitration in the last
48 WorldTraveler : With all due respect, there is no free lunch. The union can't get you something without it costing you somewhere else. The overall statistics say tha
49 DELTA7478 : And it bears reminding that CO and DL have had multiple unionization attempts for some of the same labor groups and the answer has consistently been
50 Dalmd88 : That doesn't hold much water. DL has had a few that would put in that catagory. Trying to fire someone because he's an idiot is mauch harder than it
51 Hatbutton : While I can agree, firing a guy who is an idiot, backed by a shop steward who is equally an idiot is twice as hard.
52 Rwy04LGA : You only need one, figure it out. Did I do that? No, I didn't. You spin it to make it seem that I did. Did I say I had all the answers? Did I say I h
53 Rivervisual : and how much of a pay cut did the IAM "negotiate" in exchange for the $118 a month savings?
54 Post contains links OOer : I never said that management was involved in the process, what I did say is that last year management was running around the lounges and telling peop
55 NWAESC : That's exactly what you did in your post. You equated the guys you've seen late to the gate with everyone on the ramp at NW. It wasn't "give to get."
56 EXAAUADL : My guess is FAs will go union. If DL voted non union 60/40 NW will vote union 95/5. Union will pass.
57 Mayor : Why is anytime other than now, more favorable to the members? Besides, many of the people voting will be NON-members, won't they? "Thats what a union
58 Nwaesc : With all due respect, I don't think it's fair to assume that what happened then will happen this time around, should any of the elections fail. Just
59 Mayor : With all due respect, I was referring to what CAN happen in response to the assertion that all unions do what is best for their members. Even you wou
60 DELTA7478 : My guess is FAs will go union. If DL voted non union 60/40 NW will vote union 95/5. Union will pass. It's going to be interesting wen the actual vote
61 Nwaesc : Got it. Thanks. For some reason, I thought it was BRAC, but had no real idea.
62 Mayor : It may have been BRAC at one time, but at the end, it was the ATE.
63 T5towbar : I've only got one thing to say about all this...... This is not the same DL that most people know and love. You are bringing NW along. Baggage (no pun
64 NWAdeicer : I think the bottom line is, from a NW standpoint. People that work below wing for NW are scared of what is in store for them. When I was in a spoke I
65 SkyguyB727 : You are dead wrong. In an "employment-at-will" state, an employer can terminate any employee at any time with or without reason. As long as the termi
66 Ocracoke : Um.....brown eyes would fall under race protection. I would venture to guess that 99.999% of all people of African or Asian descent would have brown
67 Nwaesc : Without a scope clause, the spokes are most likely toast. They wanted to outsource all but MSP & DTW before, and w/o a collective bargaining agreemen
68 WorldTraveler : I completely agree. And I also know that DL treats its employees as if they would have to defend their case in court. How would DL manage itself and
69 KingAir200 : Exactly. But then we are accused of being paranoid, anti-merger, or anti-Delta. I don't think that most of us are any of those. We simply value our j
70 Bobnwa : I hope you are not under the impression that you speak for the majority of NW workers. If you do think that then you know a different than I do. I do
71 Nwaesc : Quite right. Sad but true. By the way, if this isn't the course they're going to take, when are they going to come out with something saying just tha
72 Nwarooster : Richard is al lawyer and he knows just what he can do and then some.
73 DeltaL1011man : not sure if i would be 100% happy for everyone to know i worked with him. Unless this is another Lorenzo, I pretty sure I wouldn't do anything he did
74 Nwarooster : There are plenty of others that can take their place. Just look at our economy and all the wheeler dealers who helped put it into the tank.
75 Xjramper : I usually don't chime in to union threads, because it generally turns into a pissing match, and at that point, its just a waste of time. But, since th
76 Nwaesc : It's not. We're not. To paraphrase the song, DL management talks a lot, but they're not saying a thing. Regional Handling Services. All OH, CP, & XJ
77 Goaliemn : I find this odd.. I've had many friends who work in a union shop and they say when times are rough, they "work the contract" The company is "working
78 Mayor : I may be wrong about this, but could DL have given pay raises to the NW people that were still under a CBA or would that be illegal?
79 Nwarooster : Yes, Delta could give union workers raises not listed in a contract. It is legal. However, the affected union would cry foul and say they company is
80 Mayor : So, none of the affected members can complain, one way or another, can they? Of course they will, just because they can. DL is in a "damned if you do
81 Nwaesc : As noted above, there is nothing that would preclude them from doing so. Remember, the published pay rates in a CBA are only the minimum rates that s
82 Rwy04LGA : Well put!
83 Gigneil : There is just no chance of it. Um, unions ruin lives, are antithetical to the concept of the free market, and are almost single handedly responsible
84 Post contains links FlyDeltaJets : We used to use a system similar to that but it wasnt automated. It was called the board system. We had a resource coordinator that assigned crews to
85 OOer : Please explain. The way I look at it, 40% of Delta flight attendants voted for representation. That number should be the same for the next election +
86 NWAESC : Quite possibly the most hyperbolic statement I've ever read on this site. What about all the lives whose standards were raised because of unions? Act
87 Nwarooster : Thats what AMFA threw away with the mechanics. Some union. Oh, I mean association.
88 Bobnwa : I hope you are not inferring that if the union says it, it must be true. How many times since the merger was announced have the unions put out false
89 Goaliemn : Bob beat me to it. Both sides are doing some "cherry picking" of things for their own announcements. When I see both sides announce something, I look
90 Nwaesc : From the IAM? None. The bulletin you keep mentioning did not claim 3 to 1 as an "absolute" position of DL management. What it did say is that low lev
91 Bobnwa : I don't believe your explanation is the whole story of what the IAM did. My original comment also has to do with the false seniority issues put out b
92 Mayor : The DL 8.5 hour shifts are 8 paid, unpaid half hour for lunch.
93 Nwaesc : You don't have to; that's why I gave you the link... So you could read it for yourself. Yes. It was verified that DL managers were telling their peop
94 Mayor : Explain to me how 8.0 hours paid is a paycut from 7.5 paid????[Edited 2009-03-04 07:37:29]
95 Nwaesc : Easy. I currently work 7.5, but get paid for 8 (on the clock for 8 total). On an 8.5 shift, I would be on the clock for 8.5, and get paid for 8.
96 Mayor : Ok....I got it....not a "pay cut" per se.
97 Nwaesc : Depends on your perspective... You're correct that the base rate stays the same. However, if you go by actual time working it drops by a lot. Let's u
98 Stratosphere : With all due respect to Rooster with whom I used to work with many moons ago. AMFA got you a better retirement which you are enjoying right now isn't
99 FlyDeltaJets : I work in New York State where comp time is illegal. Overtime must be paid The stuff that is being compared are the most commonly inquired about diff
100 Nwaesc : Not in the way it's offered in our CBA? Leave Makeup isn't strictly used in lieu of overtime, per se. Let me give you a couple of examples: My shift
101 Mayor : I used to do both of these at DL, particularly when SLC was a small station. Many, many chances to take "comp" time in an operation like that. I coul
102 Ocracoke : Comp time has nothing to do with the union or a CBA. Comp time is ruled on a per state basis. Some states allow it, and other states don't. For examp
103 Nwaesc : Clearly. Or option B: Don't start early. As for the weather example, it's in our CBA, and doesn't differentiate between states. It's a different set
104 FlyDeltaJets : I dont punch a clock and didnt since i have been working in Delta. As a matter of fact the only two departments in the company that does is ramp and
105 Nwaesc : I know. 7 days a year, right?
106 FlyDeltaJets : That is correct. It can also be rolled over year after year.
107 Nwarooster : You just might find yourself "punching a clock" or swiping your badge. Change is in the air at the NEW Delta
108 Rwy04LGA : I rue the day I lose RR status. By working only 3 days a week and swapping, every other week I'm usually on a different continent. Although, since we
109 NWAESC : There's plenty of 3 days/week schedules at NW now... On top of that, you can trade shifts all you want if you need a bigger block of time off. There'
110 Mayor : I think the differences in payroll rules can be attributed to this.........until a few years ago, DL's payroll was all done manually, both in station
111 Dl1011 : When I started at dl in the early 90's, we punched a timeclock. After a couple of years, they replaced the timeclock with a signout sheet. After anot
112 Nwaesc : I thought that until recently RR's couldn't trade with anyone? Also, did I read the "new changes" sheet correctly that PT & FT couldn't trade w/each
113 Mayor : Well, actually, that's what I meant.....just a bad choice of words. They kept it simple by NOT allowing it. I also remember, in the 70's, that trades
114 Nwaesc : Got it. Thanks! Some cities still do it that w/o ppwk (like mine, for example).... You just need to put in a slip to have it entered into PACE (our p
115 Mayor : I don't believe we could just take the extra hours. I think it had to be payed back, one way or another....either by paying or working the shift.
116 Dl1011 : I think there were a couple of reasons. 1) DL is non-union. A lot of people were cautious, very cautious, about causing trouble or standing out from
117 Mayor : You guys should have gone over your manager's head and complained about it long before that happened. Go straight to ATL and walk right into the CEO'
118 Rwy04LGA : RRs trade ONLY with other RRs. No payback required. You can establish an arrangement with a co-worker to help each other when needed. No payback requ
119 Nwaesc : That doesn't sound very "flexible." Same here. FWIW, In my city more often than not, people just pick up the shift, and that's that. One person is "h
120 Dl1011 : I wasn't in the Lead group that was being screwed with so I don't know who they talked to inside of Delta. I do know that the Manager could be a SOB
121 Mayor : They should have helped ATL "wise up" sooner than that. Sometimes all it takes is an anonymous letter to the right people. Worked for us in SLC cargo
122 Dl1011 : It worked out in the end. The Manager got the boot and the Leads got a BIG check for back pay. As for calling ATL, I know for a fact that many calls
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