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TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 6  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4287 posts, RR: 83
Posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 59759 times:

Please continue the discussion of the crash of TK flight 1951 shortly before landing at Amsterdam's Schiphol International airport.

TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Above links to previous threads for reference

Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
307 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineRobcol99 From Turkey, joined Jun 2004, 298 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 59873 times:

I've seen a couple of postings about the tone of "hurry" in the pilot's voice. Knowing the dialect, both the languages and a number of Turkish ex-military pilots, I actually would disagree. That's a typical tone that they use.

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 3433 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 59823 times:
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Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 1):
I've seen a couple of postings about the tone of "hurry" in the pilot's voice. Knowing the dialect, both the languages and a number of Turkish ex-military pilots, I actually would disagree. That's a typical tone that they use.

It has been picked up on by the media also, but I would agree with you, their transmissions were nothing out of the ordinary at all.


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17649 posts, RR: 65
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 59787 times:

Quoting Airbuspilot (Reply 217):
First of all, a normally operating Airbus( fly by wire generation) can not be stalled. Its authothrust system will not allow you to loose that much energy. It will order max available power and command a pitch up movement starting a climb immediatly as soon as you come even near to stalll speed, and no matter what the pilots inputs are.

Wouldn't it command a pitch down instead of up if speed was too low and projected engine response not sufficient? Kind of like the famous Mulhouse crash. Since there was not enough power to stay level or climb without causing a stall, that 320 very neatly crashed, wings perfectly level.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4973 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 59663 times:

Quick question (out of ignorance);
if it's true that theey were flying manually for training purposes and the f/o forgot to check the speed .. how is it possible that no one else saw that? There were two other pilots in the cockpit, and they didn't realize they were going too slow? Wouldn't that (speed) also be part of an evaluation?


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineETFokker50 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 59602 times:

Reports in the media are indicating that Olgay Özgür was the copilot flying (as I understand it), and this was a training flight: he was working on type-certification. The article here, http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/1924383/co...estel-maakte-trainingsvlucht.html, indicates there were 3 pilots in the cabin, but isn't dead clear whether he was actually the copilot flying at the time, and isn't very clear about the 3 pilot: I think we will be hearing more about this as the investigation continues.
The investigation is expected BTW to take another 3 days, anybody but the people living in the surrounding area are now banned from the site: people were getting in the way.

User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 59371 times:

It will go in what we call ALPHA FLOOR protection and I guess, when you look into it in detail (which I tried to avoid to avoid confusion) the airplane will pitch down slightly, engage TOGA LOCK on the engines after which you will start climbing!

Regarding who was PF and PNF, that will be speculative untill the black boxes are decoded. which is why everything here are only asumptions....

I know JAR requirements demand raw data approaches to be flown in the sim, and real life exposure is not required in theory, most airlines do make it mandatory during line training to fly at least one approach like this.

Correct me if wrong please...

User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 59319 times:

Of course an AIRBUS can be stalled, it is just an airplane after all.

Which is why I clearly stated that under normal conditions, with all system operative, it will never stall! And certainly not under the same conditions the TK flight experienced!

I am just trying to simplify things a bit here, as not everybody has the technical knowledge of an FBW plane. Many people read these forums, so why over complicate things?

User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 59260 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 4):
Quick question (out of ignorance);
if it's true that theey were flying manually for training purposes and the f/o forgot to check the speed .. how is it possible that no one else saw that? There were two other pilots in the cockpit, and they didn't realize they were going too slow? Wouldn't that (speed) also be part of an evaluation?


It is only one of the many theories here...Please do not consider this as a clear reflection of what happened. Its just that, a mere possibilty!

And yes, it would have been part of an evaluation....if all had ended well that was!

User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1744 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 59078 times:

Quoting Sudden (Reply 230):
I must express that for being a pilot, your comments are being rather ignorant. Why?
Because every time when someone corrects you, you go defensive. I'm not sure what sort of license you have, may it be a PPL or a CPL, but in any case you may want to be a bit more open to what others are stating here as you can learn from it as well.

I hold a CMEL and CSEL with an instrument rating.

I am miffed that Mir insinuated that I am "amateurish" in regards to my knowledge of instrument approaches when I shoot them every week sometimes at night and often close to minimums.

The point I am trying to make is that people forget to set altimeters, correct NAV/COM frequencies, GPS points, etc. etc. all the time. When the aircraft is in a critical phase of flight (especially being 1SM from the threshold on impact), conflicting information to an inexperienced pilot (and sometimes an experienced one) can lead to disaster very quickly. Further, mistakes must be caught very quickly for the above-stated reason.

I was generalizing in my initial posting as not everyone is familiar with how instrument approaches work and the differences between precision/non precision approaches.

If I came off as an asshole I'm sorry. If my vague initial posting confused anyone I am sorry. Technically Mir is right that while "on an ILS" having an incorrect altimeter setting will not make you contact the ground early, but if anything goes wrong, you have literally seconds to make a decision and the work load increases tremendously. When going missed with obstacles in the area having the correct altimeter setting is a big deal.

If I seem defensive its because I have seen and flown with guys who are very non-chalant when it comes to safety. They cut corners saying "this or that doesn't" matter and it is dangerous.

So now that I have said my piece, what exactly did I say that was ignorant?

[Edited 2009-02-27 02:35:59]

It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 58747 times:

Quoting Airbuspilot (Reply 8):

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 4):
Quick question (out of ignorance);
if it's true that theey were flying manually for training purposes and the f/o forgot to check the speed .. how is it possible that no one else saw that? There were two other pilots in the cockpit, and they didn't realize they were going too slow? Wouldn't that (speed) also be part of an evaluation?


It is only one of the many theories here...Please do not consider this as a clear reflection of what happened. Its just that, a mere possibilty!

Well I have the same feelings as yours my dear Airbuspilot ....  Wink

And as usual we have to wait till at least the CVR and FDR are decoded....

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 674 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 57781 times:

Quoting Airbuspilot (Reply 7):
Of course an AIRBUS can be stalled, it is just an airplane after all.

If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what happened to the Air New Zealand bird off the coast of Perpignan, according to the latest report.

Therefore, yes - an Airbus can also be stalled.

User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 56742 times:

True, but I am sure you will agree with me that there is a difference between an A320 doing a testflight, performing low speed manoeuvres probably in some sort of a downgraded state in order to explore the boundaries of the flight envelope and an A320 on final of an approach, fully configured at a normal speed with normal pilots and passengers on board?

In real life, normal situation, the Airbus FBW series will NOT stall when handled within its design boundaries...

User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56593 times:

TALPA, Turkish Airline Pilots Association , is issuing a statement regarding the crash. Here are some highlights:
- The aircraft had 4100 kgs of fuel on board at the time of crash.
- They have interesting snapshots of the airplane which I don't know where they got it.
At 9:26:08 UTC the airplane's speed is 83 kts and the the plane was descending at 4300 ft/min.
At 9:25:53 UTC the airplane's speed is 83 kts and vertical speed is 600 ft/min.

They are speculating that they are focusing their attention on the NW 757 that Turkish was following by two minutes only.

Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineNNomad From Portugal, joined Feb 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56289 times:

Quoting Airbuspilot (Reply 12):
In real life, normal situation, the Airbus FBW series will NOT stall when handled within its design boundaries...

Agree..there's virtually no way you can stall a fully operational Bus with Normal Law being applied, mostly cause thats the point of the system... You kick in harder..system kicks you out even harder.... and he's much more stubborn than all of us together.

In Direct Law..well..enjoy the stall...........


don't expect too much from the world's end
User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56237 times:

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 13):
They are speculating that they are focusing their attention on the NW 757 that Turkish was following by two minutes only.

What is a normal Vref for a B738 with about 140 people onboard? 135kt maybe 140kt.

If the numbers 83kts and 4300ft Rod are true, they where in a stall and I never heard a Waketurbelence can bring you to a loss of at least 50kt IAS and a ROD of 4300ft.

I would focus my speculation on the CRM of the TK crew, has always been an issue especially with their ex fighter pilots.

User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56154 times:

THY says that 4 of the crew are dead: 3 pilot and the steward  Sad

Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2801 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56127 times:

Is looking at the preceeding aircraft going to answer the question why the Turkish 737 did not have the power to make the airfield? Most have heard of the wake from a 757, but usually this incurs a rolling moment and not simply a catastrophic loss of airspeed to a smaller aircraft close behind.

I hope we don't enter la-la land with this investigation, like what happened in BUF.

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 3433 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 55937 times:
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Quoting Bahadir (Reply 13):
They are speculating that they are focusing their attention on the NW 757 that Turkish was following by two minutes only.

Why do you say "only" ?

2 minutes in trail, normally 160kts to 4DME or the OM, gives 6NM separation. Even categorising the B757 as a heavy, there only need be 5 NM for a medium category aircraft following it.


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineNNomad From Portugal, joined Feb 2009, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 55852 times:

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 13):
At 9:26:08 UTC the airplane's speed is 83 kts and the the plane was descending at 4300 ft/min.
At 9:25:53 UTC the airplane's speed is 83 kts and vertical speed is 600 ft/min.

83kts......jezz...thats like a brick falling.. and correct me if im wrong.. but i seriously doubt wake turbulence would make the speed drop to those limits. Besides the bouncing and rolling wouldnt it be more logical to see a normal Vref speed, with a huge descent rate (resulting in control loss)?

If those 83kts are real, i seriously doubt it had anything to do with the 757 ahead.


don't expect too much from the world's end
User currently offlineCiaran From Ireland, joined Aug 2005, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 55357 times:

What are the standard OAP in the training for stalling and recovery in the 737/ A320 type, more so is it all done in the sim? or do pilots get hands on in a safe environment (if there is such a thing).

User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4995 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 55292 times:

Latest ( bulletin #5) from TK says families of the deceased will get 50,000 euros initially and the hospitalized, between 5 to 10,000 euros.

"Türk Hava Yolları tarafından kazada hayatını kaybeden mürettebat ve yolcularımızın yakınlarına ilk etapda 50 bin Avro, hastanede yatarak tedavi görenler için ise 5 bin ila 10 bin Avro ödeme yapılacaktır."

User currently offlineMd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2801 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 55176 times:

Yeah, not even sure there WAS a control loss, as 93% of the people survived a terrain crash.
By sheer luck it could land wings levels, and perhaps it was, but certainly unlikely.

User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 3038 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 54260 times:

Similar to what was announced after the Buffalo crash, anti-gay organisation Westboro Baptist Church has announced it will try to disturb the funerals of the deceased in the Amsterdam crash. The article says that "[Westboro] are convinced that this is God's punishment for the gay-friendly Netherlands".

Assuming the death toll won't rise (let's hope so!), there won't be any funerals in the Netherlands, as none of the deceased are Dutch. Bad luck for Westboro.

The world would be a friendlier place without these people.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/...en_uitvaarten_vliegcrash_verstoren (in Dutch only).

I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 54195 times:

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 13):
At 9:26:08 UTC the airplane's speed is 83 kts and the the plane was descending at 4300 ft/min.
At 9:25:53 UTC the airplane's speed is 83 kts and vertical speed is 600 ft/min.

If this is correct, they where flying a grand piano...

Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
25 Acabgd : Oh, absolutely I fully agree you cannot stall an Airbus "just like that" and that the Perpignan crash was a demanding test flight. As for TK, if the
26 DingDong : Unbelieveable. All I can say is that mental illness takes many forms.
27 Trystero : I had to double check this. It's true. I thought you were joking, but this people really exist. I have no words for this.
28 Post contains links Cmoltay : It is not only the funerals in the Netherlands that they will disturb, they'll also distrub the funerals of Islamic Turks because "God Hates The Godl
29 Mir : That error should be caught by cross-checking the identifier between the chart and the readout on the PFD. Automatic missed approach. If you were on
30 EMA747 : Man these guys should be shoved into a jet engine at takeoff thrust.
31 Ciaran : Mir In follow up question, not to over simplyfy this particular tragic scenario although the coroally being that the forces of nature are in the end q
32 PlanesNTrains : Interesting, but I am still trying to figure out why you have gone to the trouble of extoling this when it seemed to have nothing to do with the orig
33 Vikkyvik : Yes, it ought to command a pitch down. There's often talk of "stall speeds", and what often gets lost is that wings stall at an AOA. That AOA doesn't
34 Trystero : AOA meaning? Sorry not to familiar with some acronym's..
35 FatmirJusufi : Angle of Attack I think.
36 FatmirJusufi : I just saw a BBC documentary about them. Shame about their actions. Where are they supposed to picket Turkish funerals?
37 TK787 : From Turkish Aviation workers union's (Hava-Is) leader; One of the FA's, the only male FA on this flight; Ulvi Murat Eskin lost his life, another FA,
38 Burner71 : I'm sticking to my pilot error theory. Maybe some form of distraction in the cockpit allowed them to get too far behind the power curve and they enter
39 Vikkyvik : Sorry, yes, AOA = Angle of Attack. It's the angle between the freestream airflow and the relative airflow over the wings. It's distinct from the pitc
40 Md80fanatic : 83 knots is about 45 knots below the power curve. I am not so quick to blame these pilots, I actually think they were personally responsible for savin
41 UAL777 : I agree with you on all counts, but as I am sure you well know human error comprises a significant amount of aircraft accidents. I appreciate the apo
42 Spitfire : Any idea from where does the TALPA get those figures ? ACARS maybe.....not yet from the FDR readings I think...
43 Airbuspilot : Dave, I am very sorry but if you would have bothered to read the whole discussion of the day you would know why we entered the discussion, how it was
44 EMA747 : On the 737 is there any kind of warning if you are that much below the normal approach speed? I mean 83 knots is way off what it should have been [gue
45 Winterapfel : The crisis team has given a "wrap up" press conference Major topic: all persons on board (including the 9 death) have been identified.
46 Mcdu : I want to reiterate that it is not one action or inaction that causes the accident. In the AA BDL altimeter case there was more than one reason for t
47 757GB : That would be a waste of a perfectly good engine...
48 Sudden : A video made with a cellphone from one of the pax was on TV here in Holland about an hour ago. It was made just after impact and before he/she had mad
49 Mir : It's very difficult to simulate what happens when you land an airplane on soft ground, so I don't believe they can train for it. That said, I wouldn'
50 NCB : The unexperienced F/O was co-piloting as part of his line training. This makes the theory of an incapacitated captain and failure by the greenie to re
51 Post contains links Draigonair : footage taken inside and around the plane just few minutes after impact http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/...57/Allereerste_beelden_na_de_crash Nick
52 BlueShamu330s : On what grounds? I'd love to know. Again, as I and others have said before, there are as yet no heroes or villains. There is no objective evidence ye
53 Post contains links Mcdu : http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINLR36546820090227?rpc=44 Interesting that the TK Pilots Association would publish something like this. P
54 PlanesNTrains : With all due respect, Airbuspilot, I have read every single post in all six threads. Thank you for your apology, though. If I did indeed miss the pos
55 Dstefanc : " target=_blank>http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/...crash Quite disturbing watching this and at the same time I am amazed how calm most of the peo
56 KL577 : The chairman of the Dutch transportation safety board was on the news show "Nova" this night: The recorder readings are back with the investigation te
57 Draigonair : Seems its not available anymore..
58 OA260 : Yes really is. I didnt expect to see video footage like this.
59 FatmirJusufi : It's unique footage. You can clearly see damages and impact results. Thanks for sharing. Fatmir
60 Swissy : I am with you on that..... I still have the picture of the Kalitta 747 cockpit photos in mind, they more or less walked away..... after ditching in a
61 BlueShamu330s : That speaks volumes. Arrogance often precedes a fall. I'd hate to fly with you. Obviously? You have absolutely no proof of that. Whilst others, some
62 B707forever : They've been around a long time. These are the crazy people who picked Mathew Shephard's funeral, the young gay man that was brutally murdered and le
63 Starlionblue : That's almost 22 m/s. If that was ground impact speed, my guess is that it was survivable (as evidenced) but painful. First of all, good luck to them
64 EMA747 : Good idea. Toast them like a marsh mallow!
65 LTAC03R : ok everyone, once and for all lets do away with the altimeter error speculation... 1) Anyone flying the 737NG would know that it'll MAKE you set the l
66 F4f3a : Just thought id say theres a lot of rubbish coming out in the news. esp in the english newspapers. referring to the engines stalling and problems with
67 Metroliner : I see a lot of "of course"s and "most likely"s in these 6 threads. We won't know for a long time, if at all, even whether there are any of those. What
68 EMA747 : So the general gist on here seems to be that the airspeed got to be so low that is was unrecoverable. The question seems to be why it got that way. Ev
69 Metroliner : I agree. It's pretty common, in aviation accidents, to see a combination of factors at play that compounds a situation until it is beyond recovering.
70 Post contains links SPL : New link, with the footage from inside: two versions, slighty different. http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/...Eerste_beelden_van_net_na_de_crash htt
71 Upcfordcruiser : Not a surprise, this group has been very active here in America disturbing the funerals of American soldiers. They came down to my area to disrupt a
72 Md80fanatic : Please quit giving WBC press in this thread, unless they were on this flight. Remember, the only bad publicity is NO publicity.
73 FlyLKU : The condition of the wreckage appears to support a very low ground speed although 83 knots sounds unbelievable. The final reports on this one and BUF
74 Dc863 : If the plane hit wingtip vortices from another aircraft it would most likely roll not lose airspeed and pancake.
75 Post contains links Sankaps : Seattle Post Intelligencer has several new details at http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/401772_boeingcrash28.html . Amongst the info: All 4 Boein
76 Gorgos : Sankaps, I´ve been hearing various 'news' from Turkey regarding the airline crash in Holland. It all started with the minister reporting there were n
77 Aerofede : Probably you mean 2 minutes, since the required distance separation fro a Medium category aircraft (like the 737 series) behind a B757 or an Heavy is
78 Starlionblue : Classic grandstanding politician.
79 Virgin744 : Its incredibly disconcerting to hear these statements coming from the pilots' association and government officials so prematurely when the investigati
80 Max777geek : I saw something worse, with my very own eyes during a cockpit ride on a 747-200 : we were behind at a very safe distance following another 747 (I was
81 Airvan00 : But that doesn't look to be relevant in this case. The passengers have not reported violent manoeuvrers and as people have been pointing out for days
82 Severnaya : Ehm, that is not true for sure, as i saw within 5 minutes after the crash the medical cars speeding out of Schiphol to the crash site which was known
83 Gorgos : Sounds a lot more reasonable, as it takes only 40 min to drive to the german border.
84 Airvan00 : Also the controllers in the TWR pushing the big red button in the tower would have summoned the emergency services. I daresay that button would have
85 Post contains links Spitfire : Have a look here guys, very interesting figures and simulation : http://www.openatc.com/THY1951/ I remind you that altitudes are based on 1013.2 or 29
86 F4f3a : to answer metroliner. There maybe no roll associated with flap assym. Because when the flap system detects assym or scew it stops the flaps traveling
87 KL577 : Indeed this is complete nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 40 minutes after the crash, television stations had already arrived and started transm
88 Max777geek : any aviation expert witnessing would be useful to confirm if there were 2 or 4 nautical miles in beetween the 2 ac, until now we did read of 2. (wher
89 Starlionblue : Just for the record, I didn't say that.
90 Airbuseric : I didn't read completely all the 6 parts on this topic yet, but still are thinking about the following; I still remember the FR crashlanding on 10 Nov
91 Alessandro : So have they started to remove the wreckage from the area or are they going to build tents of it to continue to investigate?
92 Max777geek : Holy, my quoting fault. I did copied the wrong quoted text and it came under your name (it depends on which post you press "quote selected text" I di
93 Airbuseric : No not yet. Reported by officials that the wreckage might be removed somewhere next week, when all investigations are finished on the spot.
94 AirbusA370 : I'm surprised that the overhead panel could come loose and hit the pilots. There are extremely strict requirements for crash safety of stuff located o
95 BlueShamu330s : I think there is an element of confusion here, caused by misreporting in the media. From what we know, there was 5 NM between the previous landing 75
96 Post contains links Fkruiver : First video after crash.... http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/...Eerste_beelden_van_net_na_de_crash
97 Flood : It seems the quote in the SeattlePi article may have been taken out of context. I understood the 40 minutes was in reference to gaining access to the
98 Petertenthije : I think 4 minutes is a more reasonable guess! 40 minutes in the TV crews where already reporting having counted 33 ambulances. In total 60+ ambulance
99 Deaphen : Yes, having seen the scene myself, 40 mins is definitely rubbish! As it is that area is hustling and bustling with airport activity. Whether its emer
100 Mbg : Can anybody provide us with concrete evidence that an emergency was declared? I am not suggestiıng that it actually took 40 mins for the emergency c
101 Deaphen : MBG: From the ATC tapes, it is clear that the controllers knew of the problem (probably not of the severity) but the moment they said "we have a big
102 Max777geek : As long as I did read, the cockpit crew is been killed by something in front coming over them (or them going harder on it). By looking at the picture
103 Mbg : I meant to say "was there an emergency declared by TK1951 that would cause the emergency vehicles to be standing by at the beginning of the runway".
104 Yendig : I have a theory which I thought I'd share. No doubt at all about the aircraft entering a stall. As to why, how about a normal approach suddenly being
105 Airbuseric : TK1951 did not declare emergency. It was transferred to 118.27 tower frequency and was even Cleared to Land, and this was read back by TK crew. Sudde
106 Post contains links and images Winterapfel : Someone has made some graphs, based in these data airdisaster_forum I've inserted them here: Could somebody explain these graphs? - It seems the airc
107 PW100 : Flood is correct. The 40 minutes reference has been taken out of context. It indeed took rescue workers 40 minutes to gain access to the cockpit due
108 Acabgd : This would have to be such a major error that it seems, well not impossible, but improbable. Normal approach speed at that point would probably be ar
109 PW100 : No emergency was declared by the cockpit crew; it is not on public ATC tapes. Now that may be because of the fact that the live streams are coming of
110 Petertenthije : First call to the emergency services was made at 10:31:33. Note that this was the call made to the external services. Schiphol´s own fire department
111 Vfw614 : I am sure it has been mentioned somewhere explicity - was the aircraft in clouds until it entered the stall? I suppose those nuts will be mainly peste
112 Winterapfel : isn't it true that we're still missing a time slot here in which an emergency could have been declared? If I understand correctly we have - the TK pl
113 LTBEWR : It seems from the above data and its simulation graphics, the approach seems to be ok until just after the final turn. The a/c seems to align itself
114 Vfw614 : Well, it looks as if the Turkish media have begun looking for a non-Turkish scapegoat. I have seen quotes in the German media from Turkish media with
115 Logos : Let me see if I have this straight. You won't accept those who won't accept? You wish to impose your values on them? Does that not seem a tad hypocri
116 PW100 : I am not sure if all ATC communication was captured by the live stream recording. But I am quite positive that if the crew had declared an emergency
117 Max777geek : As you can see from the second chart, the horizontal situation shows that the ac was already below the glide slope, slightly after 9.24.30. At the sa
118 Post contains links Severnaya : Polderbaan is due to reopen on sunday evening according to the mayor of Haarlemmermeer. http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/1925051/om...hol-zijn-bang-voor-veil
119 Gonzalo : I agree with you on that. Are you talking about the AA bound to Cali ? That one crashed for a NAV error, the PIC enter a wrong navaid, an the aircraf
120 Post contains links CityhopperNL : Past few days I've been reading all posts in all parts of the discussion here about this terrible accident, and today I couldn't resist the temptation
121 Mir : If the glideslope warning goes off, the first instinct should be to pitch up to get back on the glideslope. This should be accompanied by increasing
122 Kaitak : There's an interesting - albeit rather disturbing - issue being raised in PPRUNE, to the effect that the Dutch state prosecutor's office is demanding
123 Airbuseric : As I said before, no emergency was declared by TK1951. TK1951 succesfully transferred from ATC approach to ATC Tower (118.27). The order to change fr
124 Vfw614 : One of the things I have been wondering about is why this mayor plays such a prominent role in the media. Apparently the aircraft crashed at his plac
125 Airbuseric : The leader of the crash investigation, Mr. P. Van Vollenhoven, have said that nobody else then his team will see the conclusions from the recovery of
126 Airbuseric : The airport is under responsibility of the local government of the Haarlemmermeer, therefore the mayor of Haarlemmermeer is playing his role, and he
127 Max777geek : You don't gain height by pulling up, you gain height by *speeding* up. Increasing speed is necessary to gain height. When you have powerlift, you can
128 Spitfire : That's right... so when we see an altitude of 1625 ft, the a/c was level at the correct intercepting altitude for the ILS 18R, which is 2000 ft QNH (
129 Mir : Normally you are correct - pitch for airspeed and power for altitude. It works the other way on an ILS though - pitch for altitude and power for airs
130 757GB : Thanks for the insightful post CityhopperNL. I'm glad you decide to join. Welcome aboard (I joined a short time ago myself after years of reading). T
131 NCB : Emergency would be declared on the frequency you are talking to ATC on and if not able to reach, 121.50. In this case it would have been Tower. Unfor
132 Gorgos : Yes, its one thing to have sympathy and compassion for the fate of those poor pilots, it is another thing to rule out any sort of unintentional pilot
133 EMA747 : I assume from all that I have read on here that there is no way to enter the cockpit of the 737 from the outside other than through the cockpit door?
134 Post contains links and images ZANL188 : There is an escape window on both sides of the cockpit. IMHO from pix I have seen the mechanism for the windows was probably disrupted sufficiently t
135 Reality : No doubt there are big cultural differences between countries and your point is well taken, though the people of Turkey may not agree with your chara
136 Airbuseric : As I said twice before, yes, TK 1951 made it on 118.27 frequency (tower). Yes, TK1951 got 'cleared to land' and this was read back by the crew. You p
137 Post contains links NCB : I must agree with this analysis. I want to add something: the whitness said that the engines started shaking. This is likely because the aircraft was
138 Winterapfel : Hi Airbuseric, Thanks for including the source of your statement. I had missed that the first time. Just to be sure (on can not be sure enough will a
139 Spitfire : The weather conditions didn't required a Cat III approach. We have a Cat I weather, so the ILS can be flown manualy, no auto throttle and even raw da
140 Airbuseric : No problems with the aircraft, their flying situation, or crewmembers have been reported as far is known to the public at this moment. The readback o
141 NCB : METAR EHAM 250925Z 20010KT 4500 BR SCT007 BKN008 OVC010 04/03 A cloud base at 800ft AGL is indeed CAT I weather, but who knows maybe they were doing
142 Severnaya : That was not at the airport, he announced the re-opening as a sidenote. Keypoint of today's gathering was that the people living nearby the polderbaa
143 Spitfire : Sorry NCB but the answer is clearly No , as for any cat III approaches there must be a lot of different actions taken on the ground in order to minim
144 Post contains links OA260 : The Turkish Airlines Boeing 737-800 that crashed in Amsterdam killing nine people had been repaired for a malfunction two days before. The airline has
145 Metroliner : Hi Gonzalo, yes, I was thinking of this particular incident but also another, one where the issue of sabotage came into play with regard to the pitot
146 NCB : Note I mentionned line training of the F/O not equipment testing as you seem to have misunderstood. Sure, they could have been training CAT I as well
147 Spitfire : I totaly agree with you NCB, that's why we have to wait till more reliable informations are available. And I thought about something else concerning
148 Viscount724 : Why should this be different from what frequently happens following serious motor vehicle accidents, where charges are often laid before the investig
149 EMA747 : What does CFIT mean?
150 SXI899 : Avherald has updated their article on this accident saying the Dutch Safety Board has reported that the CVR and DFDR have been read out already, and t
151 By188b : CFIT = controlled flight into terrain
152 TheSonntag : Controlled Flight into Terrain. That is a common term for accidents where the flight crew made a mistake by crashing the aircrafft into terrain witho
153 EMA747 : I have heard of Controlled Fligh into Terrain but not the term CFIT so thanks for enlightening me guys.
154 Sudden : It's also possible to hear on the post-crash ATC tape that no aircraft were to be pushed/taxi or whatever just a few minutes after TK1951 went down.
155 Gonzalo : Hi !! Mmmm i'm sorry but you lost me.... There's no "pitot static system"....could be a static port or a pitot tube, two different things. Now, regar
156 Part147 : Really!!! If you click the image tab in google and type in "pitot static system" you'll find hundreds of pictures showing this very system! It IS cal
157 CityhopperNL : Just to clear things up; some things have happened here that could cause some confusion in the rest of the world. First of all, there has been a kind
158 Md80fanatic : Well, a wings-level descent into field short of threshold sort of implies an engine(s) issue doesn't it? The odds of three pilots accidently allowing
159 Mir : You seem to be convinced that the results of the accident report are going to be incorrect. What information do you have that the investigators don't
160 Md80fanatic : None Mir, just a hunch based on past experience. We should always be suspicious of anyone claiming expertise in any field. Aviation is not a mystery s
161 Metroliner : This is the one I was thinking of. Suggestions of sabotage came about after the subsequent investigation. Many things - see my above post for some ex
162 Oldtimer : No it doesn't, if you read through the whole threads, other instances of crews getting behind the power curve have been mentioned. I am not ruling it
163 Post contains links Viscount724 : Not sure if anyone has mentioned this previously, but one possible scenario that came to mind (however unlikely it may be) was a deranged or suicidal
164 Metroliner : It does seem a little unlikely, given the flight phase. If I were ever to commit suicide in a plane, I'd get it going fast, high, and then make groun
165 Md80fanatic : 40 knots behind? c'mon Alarms and lights flashing everywhere long before 100 knots is reached.....and three people missed that? I have too much faith
166 LTAC03R : whoaaa buddy... and exactly what do you know about Turkish pilots and their attitudes? You fly for a Turkish carrier?? Or have ever been in the cockp
167 Metroliner : What alarms/lights? It is conceivable that it happened so suddenly, all they would have felt was the stick shaker, heard and seen the stall warning a
168 Dc863 : Turkish pilots are as good as another other professional flight crew. In this case something mechanical or software related caught the crew off guard
169 Cmoltay : My dear friend, One Turkish film director, Nuri Bilge Ceylan, while receiving the best film award in Cannes spoke the following words: "I'm receiving
170 DingDong : Please -- we are all friends here with a common purpose: love of aviation. No need for the stereotyping against unrelated people (or countries) other
171 Md80fanatic : Suddenly? 15 seconds of 83 knots reported before impact? That's not very sudden to me. Don't need to see the horizon, only the airfield....which will
172 Dc863 : When you're suddenly trying to figure out what's going on, 15 seconds seems like a nanosecond. Put yourself in their shoes.
173 Metroliner : We don't know how much of the airfield they could see. And, were they indeed stalling, the airfield would be sinking/have sunk out of view - agreed, c
174 Starlionblue : My point (muddled to be sure) is that there are plenty of groups promoting hatred. I have no problem accepting their right to think this way. In fact
175 Acabgd : Well if nothing else, there is the "Glideslope", as well as "Sinkrate" aural warnings - maybe it came too late, but it would certainly make me at lea
176 Metroliner : Dobro vece, Acabgd - this was the hypothesis I reached. There are indications that the throttles were advanced - possibly too late. Totally agree - t
177 Md80fanatic : Agreed with almost everything...except the above. How do we know the above is true....really know? You have to trust an expert. Dangerous place to be
178 Metroliner : I'm just allowing myself a little faith in human nature, I guess
179 Md80fanatic : Sounds good, enough of this for now. We still know nothing more than we did an hour ago. When the officials speak, we can return to this point, if nec
180 Metroliner : No need to apologise - you made me think. It's a very stimulating discussion. I hope to return to it another time. Now it's almost 1am here, so I bid
181 Md80fanatic : If I were in their shoes (with several thousand hours + military), I'd be instinctual with regard to saving a underspeed airliner. What is there to t
182 NCB : I can give you one: October 4th 1992, Amsterdam. A EL AL B742F departing EHAM crashed into a multiple-story building after an unstable engine 3 broke
183 Post contains links JoeCanuck : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401 Well, not really. It's because most air accidents have been discovered to have a cause othe
184 Md80fanatic : Back before Sully, the Ethiopian 767 ditch video was not so widely known. It was then that you could ask someone if they remember seeing the video. If
185 Post contains links Vikkyvik : Don't want to get completely sidetracked here, but in this example, 2 pilots allow a plane to get well below glideslope and crash short of the runway
186 JoeCanuck : My litmus test of a conspiracy is; what's in it for the conspirators? With the Ethiopian accident, I can't see why it would be in anybody's interest
187 Kiwiandrew : Not really. If they had been seated randomly throughout the aircraft then I would have called it coincidence , but since they were sitting in busines
188 Md80fanatic : Joe, I hear ya loud and clear. I wasn't looking for conspiracy but noticed that the only thing that had previously caught my eye in that famous video,
189 Md80fanatic : Kiwi, what if the intention was for all to die, including the targets? Not saying this, as I don't believe conspiracy always revolves around injuring
190 Deaphen : You know what i find really strange is, the way the aircraft came in contact with the ground. From all the pictures i took the day of the crash, and a
191 Acabgd : It never was the left wing. When the left wing dug into water the airliner started rolling and it was the right wing that flew in the air and can be
192 Md80fanatic : No need to get edgy, I wasn't trying to propogate any theory, just describing a notable event related to aviation....in contrast to the El Al example
193 Dc863 : Blades intact mean the engines were not operating.
194 EMA747 : Nitin your points are interesing. If the plane had contacted the ground when it was not level maybe only one side of the horizontal stab hit the groun
195 Md80fanatic : Thank you so much for posting this about the engines, I had the same observation and was severely punished at another forum for saying so. So the bla
196 LTBEWR : As to the 'pilots as god' concept, what about the deadlist air crash ever not from terror acts that some claim was in part due to the arrogance of a D
197 Md80fanatic : Is a loss of thrust considered a loss of control, as in CFIT? I mean, if there is no choice but to fly into terrain, is it still considered CFIT? Norm
198 Sbkom : Hi, I have been an avid reader of this site for a number of years, and finally I have decided to join! This accident is particularly interesting and p
199 Comorin : Welcome aboard! Excellent first post If you add to it that the engines were not spinning, I'd bet your scenario comes closest to what we will hear fr
200 727forever : They would have been better off to have sucked up the gear and belly landed it. The mains digging into that soft mud is what caused the cockpit to sl
201 Dc863 : No. CFIT only applies to an accident where the crew unknowingly hits terrain.
202 JCS17 : With TALPA coming out and exclaiming it was wake turbulence, I'm afraid we're going to have an EgyptAir 990 situation if the crash was caused by anyth
203 Sbkom : I agree with you. By making this kind of flaming and accusing statements they destroy their credibility. Bringing a point is one thing, blaming and f
204 Max777geek : If that was definitely an engine failure, that sounds reasonable that they tried to make it to the field, not having time at all to raise the landing
205 LTAC03R : TALPA and TK have no formal connection FYI. TALPA is an NGO for pilots of all airlines in Turkey. As a TK crew member I am utterly appalled by the ca
206 Cmoltay : What's more they have not even put anything about their wake vortex theory on their website, other than the famous picture though the site already in
207 LAXintl : Yes its indeed important to note that TALPA is not connected to THY, and is not the collective bargaining unit for its pilots. TALPA is more akin to a
208 Mir : Not on one of the engines. It was pretty beat up. CFIT, by definition, is not a loss of control. The airplane is functioning normally, and is flown i
209 Post contains links Sbkom : Dear Can, Indeed, they don't have that claim in their website, but the press in Europe and Turkey are full of flaming remarks from Savas Sen (Secreta
210 NCB : I can give you a theory : The forward section is the most vulnerable part of the aircraft in a crash with high vertical force components as the nose
211 Cmoltay : The words were mine, not Laxintl's, just for the sake of records. I completely agree with you, I was trying to mean that they have implied wake turbu
212 Sbkom : I selected your words, addressed the message to your name, pressed the "selected text quoted" and replied to you, but somehow it took Laxintl's name.
213 CityhopperNL : No this is not true. Please check my post 159 as to why they might have posted it. Actually the AVHerald is saying "First evidence suggests" and you
214 Petertenthije : People will hear what they expect to hear (cognitive dissonance). With that in mind, is it possible that the noise of the tail hitting the ground was
215 Deaphen : Could it be possible that only 1 engine was working? Or let me put it this way, power was erroneously or because of a problem, only one engine spoole
216 Ciaran : Quoting Kaitek: "There's an interesting - albeit rather disturbing - issue being raised in PPRUNE, to the effect that the Dutch state prosecutor's off
217 CityhopperNL : Yes Peter, I am completely aware of various illusions that pilots may experience and I would figure that untrained pax are even more likely to report
218 Post contains links and images Deaphen : Hmmmm im not expert, but to the untrained eye, it seems that even the second engine is not all THAT bad... i would assume all the blades to be messed
219 Winterapfel : Give the fact the the engine "casing" (the part that's around the fan disk) is still in place and still circular (not damaged, or turned into an egg s
220 Deaphen : Yes i suppose that is possible too, i would assume that the casing/outer part of the engine is designed to be very strong, so that is a strong possib
221 Post contains images Spitfire : Here to compare the shape of the fan blades ....
222 Acabgd : I'd say it's not interesting at all to discuss random conspiracy theories and that this forum is not the place to do it. Thank you.
223 EZEIZA : Could it be that they lost the engines but then regained power too little too late, right before hitting the ground?
224 Exsr : Thank you. It had to be said.
225 EMA747 : On the engine in the first pic it looks like there is mud splatter on the leading edge of the fan blades that disipates to the inner edge. This would
226 Spitfire : Yes of course, N1 (Fan) will be turning, except if there is a severe damage, like broken shaft or blocked compressor/ turbine for instance. The gear
227 PW100 : Don't think the main caused the forward rotation resulting in the cockpit to slam down. Given the short length of the main gear assembly, and the lon
228 XT6Wagon : its fairly clear that the plane hit with the tail first, we agree on that. What happens then though is the plane converted alot of energy into rotati
229 F9Animal : Please let me know if they plan to come out to Washington State.
230 727forever : Never said that the mains hit first. Mostly I agree with what you said. Tail hit first, but the second thing to hit was main gear which dug in and pu
231 CityhopperNL : I think this is a good analysis. But I also think that when stalling a plane onto a surface, the landing gear comes in very handy to absorb the first
232 Iberiadc852 : As someone with really minumum cockpit knowledge, the fact that the aircraft seemed to be losing too much speed gradually makes me think it worked lik
233 Vfw614 : From the data, it appears that the aircraft was out of clouds for more than a minute. Assuming that something could have been done about the loss of s
234 727forever : We know that the surface winds were at 10 knots, but I am wondering what the winds were aloft. There is usually a drop off in wind velocity in the 20
235 Mir : Very unlikely. Speedbrakes should not be used while on approach - if you need them, you're unstabilized in the first place and need to go around. Pil
236 Deaphen : Will we ever get the report? I mean, is there any chance we will get to know the results of the readings from the FDR's? Just very curious now. Regard
237 Sbkom : One of the pax sitting on the left side even mentioned about seeing smoke coming out from the left engine during final, and said the engine broke off
238 Max777geek : Definitely not. airbrakes can be used at a certain extension in flight to reduce airspeed, that would increase dramatically the descent ratio, but I
239 Haggis79 : you're best off by just ignoring him... he seems to be incapable of contributing to a thread without bringing up any conspiracy theories... just read
240 Post contains links Whaley : I don't remember if this eye witness from the outside was already mentioned: In an article in Dutch at http://www.nieuwsbladgeldermalsen.nl...n-ziet-c
241 Post contains links Viscount724 : The TK crash reminded me of the British Midland 737-400 crash in 1989 where one engine developed major problems but the crew mis-identified the bad e
242 CityhopperNL : Yes you are quite right, it must have happened less than a minute before scheduled touchdown, because where the plane crashed it only had half a minu
243 EMA747 : Interesting, but nobody else has mentioned the plane hitting a tree (not that I have read anyway). It sort of reminds me of it too. I live close to E
244 Starlionblue : I dunno. This could just be standard procedure. By law they may have to "demand" access in order to check all the bureaucratic boxes. I would think t
245 Post contains links Virgin744 : http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=37469 According to the TALPA (Turkish Pilots Association) they explain that the plane did not crash du
246 RichM : Is this always the case? In 2006 when I flew to Ibiza on a Thomsonfly 757-200 (G-BYAN) the speed brakes were used while on final approach.
247 Mir : That's a possible scenario, and it would point to a failure of TK's training and CRM programs. An engine failure in an airliner is not a time-critica
248 Theredbaron : I am just an armchair aviation enthusiast but after reading over a 1000 posts on this terrible accident I have a theory so here it goes: The 737 was a
249 Mir : Depends on what you define as final approach. My comment was based on final approach being defined as after intercepting the glideslope. You can be g
250 727forever : This all depends on the airplane and company. The company that I flew the 727 for prohibitted speed brake use anytime any flaps were extended. The co
251 Md80fanatic : How can both pilots be distracted at once? One is looking at instruments and the other out of the windscreen. At best one might be distracted for a br
252 Md80fanatic : The DFDR and CVR must be in absolutely mint condition, and the necessary download could/should have been possible in very short order (like same day).
253 Mir : People ask that question a lot. And yet it keeps happening. Then maybe you have some insight you'd like to share on that. Because as far as I can tel
254 Zeke : Lots of possibilities, a unknown failure like what caused the 737 rudders to have hard overs, inadvertent thrust reverser deployment etc, so many pos
255 Md80fanatic : Proof? Do you have first hand proof? I wonder what got under Steve Chelander's skin so bad that he resigned one week into the Buffalo accident? He wa
256 Md80fanatic : Windshear? Huh? Maybe God sneezed and this plane got too close to the downdraft? Since we're throwing darts with eye's closed......why not?
257 Theredbaron : Md80 Fanatic I used to like flying for almost 20 years since I got my first propeller trip on a DC6, then I flew 5 years completely terrified, why? I
258 Dc863 : I take it you've never read too many NTSB accident reports. Pilots can be distracted by many things. It happened so many times when there used to be
259 Mir : A brief visit to the NTSB site should answer that question. Off the top of my head, I can give you two major accidents that were the result of pilot
260 KL577 : In other news: The Polderbaan (01L-18R) has reopened for traffic. The wreckage will not be removed before Tuesday, as technical investigations require
261 Alias1024 : It can happen a lot more easily than you would imagine. Just a few weeks ago I was inbound to SFO from the south on the Quiet Bridge visual. I was pi
262 Post contains links Part147 : It seems this paper is reporting that ATC is mainly at fault, since it didn't use 5 miles separation between aircraft, resulting in windshear and, I p
263 76er : On the Dutch pilot forum "Airwork" it is stated (by an anonymous air traffic controller?) that radar plots show a separation of 5.6 NM. Alledgedly, th
264 Max777geek : in flight ? that would have been making the plane coming down even faster the empire state building elevator, and not just as pointed, at -1500 fpm d
265 Vfw614 : Wonder what goes through the head of pilots on approach to the Polderbaan when passing overhead the wreckage (and passengers if the wreckage is off c
266 Max777geek : Landing on the same rwy, I wouldn't say so. Maybe traffic from the other rwys, but I guess everything is been covered also concerning for this reason
267 Post contains links DeC : Very realistic cgi depiction of what went wrong with the plane, i.e the actual crash based on the investigation findings so far and eye-witness accoun
268 Deaphen : True, but whats strange is, which this animation has not picked up, was why both the engines are to the right side of the fuselage. One about 200 met
269 Nitepilot79 : I have seen the term "incapacitation" used to describe a possible factor in the crash. I assume this in reference to physical and/or mental incapacita
270 Max777geek : different bounces, possibly different pylon damages upon ground contact ?[Edited 2009-03-02 04:30:53]
271 Draigonair : It can all happen, the PNF just quickly looking at, for example, the taxi route and the PF fixated on the g/s leaving the speed un-monitored. Trust m
272 Post contains links Khobar : GPWS - "Pull up. Woop woop. Pull up." Pilot - "Shut up! Shut up!" sound of impact. end of tape. There is a video of a C130 fitted with rockets that s
273 Sbkom : This is not what went wrong, this is how the pilots managed the crisis. This is exactly how I imagined when I tried to describe it earlier. If this i
274 LTBEWR : One possibility I want to put out there, was there a major electrical fault, short or a circuit breaker going out and kicking back in? What I am think
275 Viscount724 : Also UA173 in 1978, the DC-8-61 that ran out of fuel while holding near PDX to investigate a landing gear warning, luckily with only 10 fatalities of
276 Zeke : Where did you get 1500 fpm from ? Above 1500 mpm (approx 4 920 fpm) was mentioned, but I think it is too early to know that until the initial report
277 Post contains images OV735 : If you take a look at the map, after a turn to the left by 20-30 degrees, there would have been much more room for the crash landing, and no need to
278 Sbkom : It is pure speculation at this point. It is impossible for us to see the real terrain on the Google map, but the accident pictures show trees planted
279 Gonzalo : You're correct. A simple lamp distracted the crew ( was a gear locked indicator, although the gear was in position )...and an almost brand new wide b
280 Dc863 : Yes. Also I never insinuated that the Turkish pilots didn't do everything possible to avoid disaster. I was addressing MD80s assertion that pilots ca
281 Iberiadc852 : Although an accident is generally a concatenation of causes, an explanation is most probable as less concatenations of odds you need to justify it. A
282 Ptrjong : I don't see why they would have preferred to do that. Anyway, the fields north of A200 have lots of ditches. A low approach, an engine failure, shutt
283 Na : This is also on yahoo now. And the, again premature, reaction from Turkey: The pilots made no mistake. Wait and see.
284 Bralo20 : The 40 minutes is most likely not true although Fire & EMS were dispatched to a wrong location at first. Correct, but AFAIK they were dispatched to a
285 Post contains links Draigonair : Interesting photo taken from the cockpit. Taken short final RWY 18R you can see TK1951 lying on the ground. http://lh5.ggpht.com/__SfybfHbfMo/Sa...AAA
286 Severnaya : That photo indicates that the plane was on the centerline.
287 LHRSpotter : Sbkom, I also think that your theory about the crew stalling to crashland in the soft field AND to avoid the busy A9 motorway is quite plausible, esp
288 Litz : Are those the horiz. stabilizers sitting in the field a goodly distance from the rear of the plane? You can see the tail canted off to the side from
289 EMA747 : " target=_blank>http://lh5.ggpht.com/__SfybfHbfMo/Sa...ash02 I assume the big white coloured tent and the brown road that the truck is driving on to
290 Petertenthije : Yes they are. Yes both the road and the tent where added after the crash.
291 Deaphen : Yes, that is a temporary enclosure. But look at the difference in height, assuming that the aircraft the picture was taken from was also inbound 18R.
292 EMA747 : From looking at the picture again I would say the tail section split off from the main body about were the horizontal stab did and that is why there i
293 DRAIGONAIR : yeh i think that too. The plane, where the photo was taken from, is indeed on approach 18R and looks normal as i seem to see 2 red 2 white from the P
294 Sbkom : Yes, I made a typo, sorry! I tried to edit it afterward but was unable. 117 kts is taken from the speed published just before the A200.[Edited 2009-0
295 Post contains links PW100 : Today at 14.00 CET, the Dutch Safety Board investigating this accident will publish their initial findings. http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/index.p...itn
296 NCB : This is a correct analysis. Whatever happened was so sudden and unexpected that it didn't give the pilots time to react, let alone execute a more com
297 Deaphen : one silly question, will the report be in dutch or english or both? Cant wait to hear the results. Hmmm and where will the finding be posted or will i
298 PW100 : The report will definitively be published in English as well. I don't have link, but the press conference will be live on several Dutch TV channels. R
299 Post contains links Hotje : Flightglobal already posted some info prior to the press conference: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/un...urkish-airlines-crash-evidenc.html
300 Gorgos : ^^^ Is it normal that the engines are in "retard" mode in that fase of approach?
301 N14AZ : Thanks very much for the link. Doesn't sound too good for the crew - if these are the first results.
302 TristarSteve : No, probably because of the Left RadAlt false reading.
303 Wolbo : These unconfirmed reports have also been broadcasted on Dutch TV. If true it shows how unwise it was for TALPA to try to lay the blaim elsewhere witho
304 Draigonair : Woo thats not good at all. If the throttle are in retard mode and you want to give power and then you let go of the throttles, if i understand correct
305 Lexer : Can somebody explain exactly what the "retard mode" is? Many thanks. L.
306 Post contains links Gorgos : This bit of info helped me: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6186447/description.html
307 Post contains links HB-IWC : Please continue the discussion here: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 7 This thread is now archived.
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