Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
EK Continues Push For Access To Canada  
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13165 times:

Again today EK has made statements that were picked up in at least one newspaper in Canada. This time made by SrVP Andrew Parker.

The gist is the same as recent statements where Emirates wants to increase Toronto to daily and add Calgary and Vancouver at some point. They are touting the same spin off figures of tourism and business. All points previously stated.

The new information is that they state loads out of YYZ are around the 90% level. If that is the case then it makes sense that an A380 would replace the 77W service, since the bilateral doesn't specify the number of seats but rather flights.

They also are talking about a First Class lounge in Toronto and the contruction and economic spin offs of it.

The economic numbers sound rather high to me and would love to know what an independant economist's take would be. But the media push seems to be on high setting.

http://www.thestar.com/article/594534

125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12468 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13119 times:

In the current environment, I would imagine that any potential for growth in traffic should be pursued. As to an "independent economist's take", I'd say that EK's traffic statistics should easily be verifiable, both as numbers and load factors, so if they say 90% loads, I think that's probably accurate.

If EK can bring this kind of growth to YYC or YVR, why should the Canadians deny it, especially with traffic to current destinations on a downward trend (I'm assuming)?

What would be the upside of denying EK access?


User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1813 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13047 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
What would be the upside of denying EK access?

Allowing AC the access to those pax numbers. Thats all i can think of really.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineDabth747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13008 times:

I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

I know EK tends to sort of be on their own as they dont seem to be interested in joining any alliances or even aquiring any other airline....

however they do codeshare a lot, for example with SA, TG to name two from Star Alliance

I believe they also codeshare with CO and a whole bunch of others....


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12980 times:

Bottom line is that Canada sits on restrictive bilaterals with many countries and can be very difficult to cajole to open its markets up further.
Look at the experience of Singapore and Turkey amongst others trying to deal with the Canadians for many years.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12468 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12870 times:



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 2):
Allowing AC the access to those pax numbers. Thats all i can think of really.

Yes, but AC has shown very little interest in the Middle East and/or India. Canada needs to put its interests above those of AC; if it won't fly there and give access to new markets for trade and commerce, then EK (and others) should be allowed to.


User currently offlinePilotRecruit From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12770 times:

This isn't going to be incredibly productive for the thread, but man would I love to see an Emirates bird in YYC!

From what I've seen, a lot of BA's business in Calgary seems to be from people connecting onwards to Asia such as India and Pakistan. Based on this, one would assume that there would be plenty of business for Emirates to tap into, but I would imagine that a daily flight wouldn't be sustainable, at least at first anyways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently the bilateral between Canada and the UAE allows 6 weekly flights and that is split between Emirates and Etihad?



"Whether you think you can or you can't, either way you're right." Henry Ford
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12739 times:



Quoting PilotRecruit (Reply 6):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently the bilateral between Canada and the UAE allows 6 weekly flights and that is split between Emirates and Etihad?

Correct EK flies 3 days and EY flies the other 3. All are to YYZ.

The fees for EK to go to daily to YYZ for the GTAA would be significant. So obviously the management of the airport is very much in favour.

At the same time, if they don't go daily the chances of an A380 being added to the run once there are enough in the fleet are pretty good. And the bragging rights for having the A380 flying to YYZ would be great for the management of the airport.

Either way the YYZ GTAA management wins. The only way they lose is if EK gets angry and drops Canada all together and that is not likely to happen with 90% loads.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4385 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12727 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Canada needs to put its interests above those of AC

Canada is doing exactly that, by maintaining aviation policies that promote a viable Canadian airline industry. Canadian transport officials long ago realized the threat posed by the third-country air carriers - arguably, the Canadians realized the threat even before the Americans did -- and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's and SQ's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12720 times:



Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 3):
I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

The problem is that there isn't much O&D traffic between Canada and the UAE. I'm sure by far the majority of EK traffic is to/from India and other points beyond DXB. Canada has always been reluctant to liberalize access for carriers that depend largely on 6th (and 5th) freedom traffic to make service to/from Canada economic, unless there are some offsetting benefits for Canadian carriers.It's basically the same reason why SQ was never permitted to operate more than 3 flights weekely SIN-ICN-YVR.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Yes, but AC has shown very little interest in the Middle East and/or India.

AC serves TLV and was on the verge of launching YUL-BEY service a few years ago until the Canadian government withdrew their approval for the service, presumably for security-related reasons.

AC has served India on 3 separate occasions in the past but for various reasons it was never profitable (seasonal traffic, little high yield business traffic).


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12689 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Thread starter):
The gist is the same as recent statements where Emirates wants to increase Toronto to daily and add Calgary and Vancouver at some point.

In other news, water is wet.  spit 

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
In the current environment, I would imagine that any potential for growth in traffic should be pursued.

 checkmark 

There are certain markets where if EK were to be allowed more flights, they could instantly increase the cash flow.

Recently Australia and India Bilaterals were expanded. I'm still in shock at quantity of new Australia service. The India Bilateral was a small enough jump that they'll be back at the negotiating table every two or three years as they have for a while.

Canada and Germany stick out as the two nations EK wants to expand flights to. I really doubt they'll be allowed to jump to 21 (or more) flights per week from the current 3 to Canada. With Germany, Berlin and Stuttgart are the two obvious expansion points. But I'm sure EK would like rights to more frequencies to FRA, MUC, and maybe one of the other currently served cities?

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
What would be the upside of denying EK access?

The political thought is to send the traffic to AC. The reality is it will slow Canadian economic growth. Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Bottom line is that Canada sits on restrictive bilaterals with many countries and can be very difficult to cajole to open its markets up further.

 checkmark  Hence why AC never seems to be in the 'shape' to compete with the best run airlines in the world. The downside of protectionism is AC isn't structured to compete in an open skies environment.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12665 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
The reality is it will slow Canadian economic growth. Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

How would it improve Canadian economic growth? There is no shortage of airline capacity between Canada and the UAE. Apart from the existing EK and EY service, virtually all major European carriers, and several U.S. carriers, offer good online connections via their hubs.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
The downside of protectionism is AC isn't structured to compete in an open skies environment.

AC has done very well in one of the largest Open Skies markets in the world -- Canada-USA. They are by far the largest carrier on Canada-US routes. And Canada has recently agreed to Open Skies with the EU and Korea. Other major AC international markets including the UK and Germany are also very close to Open Skies.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12631 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 8):
and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's and SQ's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access.

Wreak havoc  Confused

I call it providing consumer more choice via schedules, fares and service levels.

All the Canadian government to date has done is to prop up Air Canada monopolitic position to the detriment of Canadanian and global consumers. Terrible to see a nations policy built around a single company.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineYVR1968 From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12630 times:

I wonder if these open letters are having any effect at all.

Are people reading this and then immediately calling up their MPs or writing letters to parliament. I am sure with the economic situation right now (such a cliche statement these days - but true) I don't think the average Canadian consumer would really care too much. Other than certain businesses and airport authorities.

Somebody mentioned the large number of connecting passengers on BA out of YYC to South Asia. Well if there are that many, why has BA downguaged the YYC service to a 763 from a 772. I still doubt the true viability of numbers out of Western Canada to the Middle East.

I doubt these political letters will have much if any impact on the bilaterals. The minister in charge of such bilaterals didn't sound like she was too moved by these letters, stating that the current capacity is sufficient. Another political spin perhaps, but in any case, doesn't sound like any changes are on the near horizon. So EK, just keep writing your letters.. and see what happens.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4385 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12622 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

When used effectively, it's a superb tool for developing and maintaining a viable aviation industry. Virtually all large and succesful aviation markets on the planet engage in varying degrees of formal and informal protectionism, and it more or less works.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently onlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12557 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14):
it's a superb tool for developing and maintaining a viable aviation industry



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 8):
and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access

Well that's a view point. It may not be shared by various aviation consultancies and IATA but it's a perspective.

I think it's very myopic to see the liberalisation of air services in the context of the aviation industy only. There are bigger things in the world than airlines.

"The Greater Toronto Airports Authority... says that allowing Emirates and its competitor, Etihad Airways, to increase flights to the United Arab Emirates would produce an economic windfall – more than 500 jobs, $20 million in salaries and $13.5 million in tax revenues."

EK and EY are hardly "wreak(ing) havoc" in the Canadian market place. Instead, they are offering a win-win situation for them, potential passengers/traffic and the Canadian economy (taken as a whole).

If one assumes the "havoc" refers to Air Canada being adversely affected, quite frankly then, Air Canada will be forced to become a better company in terms of improved efficiencies, offering improved products and services to attract customers and to invest in equipment (aircraft). Now isn't that a thought? - having to improve due to effective competition?

And let's not forget about the externalities that have been demonstrated by more liberal air transport links.

I support Emirates in their quest to offer greater connectivity to Canadian passengersThe Greater Toronto Airports Authority, which runs Pearson airport, says that allowing Emirates and its competitor, Etihad Airways, to increase flights to the United Arab Emirates would produce an economic windfall – more than 500 jobs, $20 million in salaries and $13.5 million in tax revenues.

Kudos to Emirates for pursuing this.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
In the current environment, I would imagine that any potential for growth in traffic should be pursued



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Canada needs to put its interests above those of AC; if it won't fly there and give access to new markets for trade and commerce, then EK (and others) should be allowed to.




Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12537 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
All the Canadian government to date has done is to prop up Air Canada monopolistic position to the detriment of Canadanian and global consumers. Terrible to see a nations policy built around a single company.

How many major AC international markets have no competition? Very few. AC certainly had no influence when HKG-based low-cost carrier Oasis Hong Kong started their short-lived service HKG-YVR alongside CX.

What markets do you consider monopolies for AC? In a few markets where AC may be the only direct operator (Australia, for example), that's only because airlines from the other country have chosen not to withdraw from the market. Is AC preventing QF from operating to Canada? They can start service any time they want.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12483 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
What markets do you consider monopolies for AC?

Monopolistic as in the sense government policy favors protecting AC and limiting further service or competition.

For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred. Only after years of other bilateral trade pressures, and AC softening its stance due changes in alliance players does it look like the service will finally become reality. Amazing back room process for a first world country that is so dependent on foreign commerce.  Yeah sure



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4385 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12432 times:



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 15):
think it's very myopic to see the liberalisation of air services in the context of the aviation industy only.

I don't, and neither do countries that engage in overt and subtle protectionism. What we DO see, however, is that a modern economy depends on a viable aviation sector, and for most industrialized countries that means having one or more viable home-country airlines. And the generally poor economics of commercial aviation favors implementing degrees and forms of protectionism (and again, Open Skies, if used strategically, IS a form of protectionism against third-country carriers like Emirates) to keep the home-country carriers viable.

Indeed, if taken too far, liberalization for its own sake can be downright destructive and far more harmful to economic growth than protectionist policies.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12401 times:



Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 3):
I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

Why bind EK to an agreement it may not want to work in?

Quoting PilotRecruit (Reply 6):
This isn't going to be incredibly productive for the thread, but man would I love to see an Emirates bird in YYC!

Ditto! And the fares that will be a lot more competitive.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 8):

Canada is doing exactly that, by maintaining aviation policies that promote a viable Canadian airline industry. Canadian transport officials long ago realized the threat posed by the third-country air carriers - arguably, the Canadians realized the threat even before the Americans did -- and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's and SQ's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access.

And ... is this supposed to be a good thing? What happened to market liberalization? This is being done at the expense of consumers who have to dish out $$ to go from one point to another etc. I don't have to tell you the $ difference between flying from the US west coast to the US east coast, vs Canada west coast and Canada east coast. The very same thing can be said about flying overseas from Canada.

The viable Canadian industry they are promoting still has us limited to 2 airlines serving us coast to coast, with every other one that attempts to enter the market either being eaten up or led out of business. Viable? At the end of the day, it hurts consumers, limits mobility both within the country and outside, and limits economic activity.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

How would it improve Canadian economic growth? There is no shortage of airline capacity between Canada and the UAE. Apart from the existing EK and EY service, virtually all major European carriers, and several U.S. carriers, offer good online connections via their hubs.

There is a shortage in the sense that one is limited to 3x per week on either airline via Toronto. If EK wants to serve Calgary and Vancouver, it'd open up a seamless route to Dubai, a great connection point to the middle east and/or Indian subcontinent. Calgary being the oil capital of Canada would greatly benefit for such a connection. Didn't Abu Dhabi's investment arm just announce the purchase of Nova Chemicals, Canada’s largest chemical maker? If such activities enable Canadian companies to have more of a global reach, why limit their potential by making travel more prohibitive and complicated?

While I could be wrong on my timeline, didn't EK's service to Houston come after Halliburton moved its HQ to Dubai? And how successful is EK's service to Houston? Isn't QR also joining in? Imagine what this could do to Canadian cities?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred. Only after years of other bilateral trade pressures, and AC softening its stance due changes in alliance players does it look like the service will finally become reality. Amazing back room process for a first world country that is so dependent on foreign commerce. Yeah sure

AC? Enough said.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12384 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 18):
I don't, and neither do countries that engage in overt and subtle protectionism.

Countries that engage in overt protectionism aren't doing very well. The extreme expense related to flying in South America hurts many businesses and keep many more "grounded". And despite all that I know that many pilots aren't going to tell you they are racking it in.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently onlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12379 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 18):
we DO see, however, is that a modern economy depends on a viable aviation sector, and for most industrialized countries that means having one or more viable home-country airlines

A viable aviation sector, or in more plain words, a market for passenger and cargo transportation by air, can be supported by inviting competition and connectivity from non-indigenous airlines such as Emirates.

Those airlines that argue against liberalisation generally are afraid of competition and the need for rationalisation. Further, those airlines are indeed myopic because that is their business and they do not have to care about anything else.

Governments should instead consider the benefits of increased tourism and business traffic (in both directions) and the externalities of air transport rather than seeing airlines as businesses that need to be cuddled and protected from the reality of globalisation and capitalism.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently onlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12366 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
There is no shortage of airline capacity between Canada and the UAE. Apart from the existing EK and EY service, virtually all major European carriers, and several U.S. carriers, offer good online connections via their hubs.

Not to you specifically as an individual or this particular route, but could the prospect of something magical called a non-stop air service provided by airline(s) that offer above average standards of comfort and amenities lure people away from these "good online connections via their (incumbent) hubs" be extremely scary?

Let consumer's choose and let them have the choice.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12192 times:



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 15):

"The Greater Toronto Airports Authority... says that allowing Emirates and its competitor, Etihad Airways, to increase flights to the United Arab Emirates would produce an economic windfall – more than 500 jobs, $20 million in salaries and $13.5 million in tax revenues."

Of course they'd say that. But I'm not taking those figures at face value.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
If EK wants to serve Calgary and Vancouver, it'd open up a seamless route to Dubai, a great connection point to the middle east and/or Indian subcontinent. Calgary being the oil capital of Canada would greatly benefit for such a connection.

This is hardly a convincing argument for promoting UAE service to YVR or YYC, which already have seamless connections to Dubai & Abu Dhabi and one-stop connections to the Middle East, India or to any oil centre on the planet.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred.



Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
AC? Enough said.

Your impressions of AC's influence on the federal government, I think, are overly ambitious.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 22):
could the prospect of something magical called a non-stop air service provided by airline(s) that offer above average standards of comfort and amenities lure people away from these "good online connections via their (incumbent) hubs" be extremely scary?

Not at all. But could they be economically viable? Is there that much O&D to the UAE? To many of EK's onward connecting cities, going through DXB is a big detour for Canadians.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4385 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12157 times:



Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
What happened to market liberalization?

It's a policy best pursued in reasoned moderation, like any other. Over-liberalization, like excessive protectionism, is counterproductive.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 21):
A viable aviation sector, or in more plain words, a market for passenger and cargo transportation by air, can be supported by inviting competition and connectivity from non-indigenous airlines such as Emirates.

No it can't. This hasn't proven true anywhere in the world. Not even in Australia, often cited as some sort of model for allowing foreign entrants into the domestic marketplace. The foreign carrier will come in, cherry pick a select few profitable routes, and drive the home-country carrier either into ruin or into drastic cutbacks that cause a reduction or complete loss of service to many communities.


Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
The viable Canadian industry they are promoting still has us limited to 2 airlines serving us coast to coast,

Because that's about the most Canada's population and traffic flows can sustain.



Live life to the fullest.
25 JoeCanuck : If there's enough traffic for EK and EY, there should be enough traffic for AC, as well. Then they can also try and steal some Asian traffic.
26 LAXintl : I wish I was. Having personally participated in several rounds of talks, I've heard with my own ears the Canadian representatives state they were unw
27 Pnwtraveler : The other side of the coin is the Canadian government requires some things from Air Canada no other carrier (WestJet or American carrier) has to compl
28 JoeCanuck : Having worked in the UAE since 2002, based out of Alberta, I can tell you I would have jumped at the chance to fly direct to Dubai, instead of using F
29 Wedgetail737 : I think it would make perfect sense that EK or QR would fly from the UAE to YVR. I'm sure Vancouver proper has a prominant Arab population. I know for
30 Traveladdict : SQ much? Haha... with YYZ, not with YVR, cuz I think they dropped YVR just because of the economy not because of Canadian protectionism laws. I wonde
31 Threepoint : They must be hiding. Lived there for two years and still spend weeks at a time there and can count visible Arabic people there on one hand. Are you c
32 PVG : True, but competing against a potentially government subsidized entity forces the issue sometimes. Until EK is willing to open their books for review
33 Wedgetail737 : Define South Asians? Are you referring to Indians or Pakistani? I could be. However, when we exchange our US money with Canadian currency at an Abbot
34 Post contains links PVG : Maybe stability is more important than consumer choice sometimes. Suggest that you read this before complaining about Canadian government interventio
35 Pnwtraveler : Oops. I am sure you mustn't mean that how it came out. Not only are Arabs and South Asian far from neighbours, they don't look much alike - unless yo
36 Viscount724 : I expect it would use the polar routing, passing close to the northern coast of Greenland. Great Circle mileage DXB-YYC is only 200 nm further than D
37 SkySurfer : Maybe if airlines were let into Canada then Air Canada would be forced to actually compete instead of charging stupidly high prices to fly from YYZ to
38 Fly2YYZ : I am very very very happy that someone has mentioned this. While EK wants all these bilateral rights granted to it, there's no transparency as to how
39 Viscount724 : It's a free market. If people don't want to pay those fares they have other options on routes like YYZ-YGK. I expect that route is operated mainly fo
40 Post contains links Fly2YYZ : You make it sound like its all about AC and the government. They are Canada's largest airline, providing daily international service unlike TSC for i
41 SkySurfer : Justify the price to me please? APPEAR! Proof is ....where? You mean better service, which is hardly scarce seeing as ive flown Air Canada many times
42 SkySurfer : Decent train yes, but fares to match the airlines and no gurantee of actually having a seat on the train! Problem is that as soon as Inter Canadien w
43 Pnwtraveler : Unfortunately there just isn't enough traffic for Porter to fly into Kingston. Filling a Q400 that Porter uses is a lot different than a Beech. VIA Ra
44 CayMan : YYC seems like a long shot at this time. $1bn deficit, much worse than expected economic number in Alberta coupled with severe downturn in Dubai...the
45 SSTsomeday : I can see The Canadians' point, though. Canada is in a geographic position to only (potentially) offer O + D service between Canada and points in The
46 Manu : I know many people who regularly travel between Canada and DXB. I disagree with your assessment, but have no factual basis other than what I've seen
47 AirNz : Sorry, but the price doesn't have to be justified at all. As a consumer, that person must justify it to themselves as to whether or not they want to
48 Burnsie28 : So because they come close to filling a plane that holds a total of 358 (which is still 41 short of economy alone on the A380) so 90% of that 358 is
49 Dabth747 : Agree thats not the solution, the solution is daily to offer more flexibility rather than 3 x week for premium pax, who wants to no show on a Friday
50 Cslusarc : I don't post much here lately. I am totally anti-EK when it comes to flying to Canada. I feel that EK is highly subsidized by its local government bec
51 Threepoint : South Asians = Pakistanis and Indians. It is difficult to confuse this community with the Arab race. Relax about it. As much as Canadians wish to pub
52 Skysurfer : Easy, lack of choice! Don't get me wrong....as i've clearly stated above i like the airline but their airfares are high, as are Westjets now. It's ni
53 Viscount724 : EK can easily reroute that passenger via JFK where they have twice-daily service.[Edited 2009-03-01 12:43:47]
54 SSTsomeday : I see your reasoning. But does that mean that EK expects to create demand from Canada that does not currently exist simply by virtue of adding more f
55 YVR1968 : Well, out of eastern Canada, surely EK would be at an advantage as the DXB hub would work well for connections from YYZ - Southern Middle East/South
56 Olympus69 : Lets face it. Nothing's really going to change while we're sitting next to a country with ten times our population and more than ten times the economi
57 Threepoint : Neither, it seems, do the federal bureaucrats tasked with making the decisions that permit foreign carriers to serve Canada. Despite our diminutive c
58 Yyz717 : There are many issues that play into the easing of bilateral restrictions. Not all of them are economic. Many are political.....I, for one, think that
59 Threepoint : Crown Corp arguments are so ancient as to be irrelevant in today's Canadian air carrier discussions. For every route AC was handed when a Crown Corpo
60 JoeCanuck : The only problem I have with the UAE getting more flights to Canada is if Women don't seem to be treated barbarically in Dubai or Abu Dhabi, as far as
61 Directorguy : I disagreet that bilaterals should be prevented on basis of human rights. The UAE is not the only country that has a bad record in terms of human rig
62 Yyz717 : Correct, but this thread is about the UAE and EK. So we will talk about the UAE and EK here. Denying Indians citizenship when they have been in Dubai
63 JoeCanuck : The Canadian government already allows UAE airlines to fly into Canada so, obviously, the human rights issue is a moot point. I don't recall seeing w
64 Directorguy : It's an open debate. But of course the matter lies with the UAE government, who grant citizenship as they see fit. They didn't lure Indians to Dubai
65 SQ_EK_freak : And United I think? I know passengers on EK can earn miles on UA. The issue with AC in the Middle East is that they don't offer the onward connection
66 Dabth747 : easier said then done when perhaps 3/4 of the flight does not have a US visa....
67 Pnwtraveler : My friend who lives in Abu Dhabi said to me yesterday - after the denial of the Visa for the Israeli tennis player that made headlines around the worl
68 Viscount724 : You are overlooking that many of the CP routes you mention were only awarded to CP after AC (then TCA) said they had no interest in operating them. A
69 Threepoint : All understood. I guess the conclusion is that all major Canadian airlines currently suffer or have suffered interference by the politicians du jour
70 Post contains links Bochora : I see on their site they have a whole new section for Canada-UAE flights: http://www.emirates.com/uk/english/a.../public_affairs/canada/canada.aspx
71 YVR1968 : " target=_blank>http://www.emirates.com/uk/english/a....aspx Wow, what a bunch of boloney! "At the very least we seek to offer our business and leisu
72 Singapore_Air : Intersting. Could you elaborate on how each of those sentences you have quoted equal to "boloney"?
73 Viscount724 : Does anyone have any data on Canadian tourist arrivals in DXB or the Gulf in general? I believe the numbers must be very small, apart from a few peop
74 Jamincan : As I suspected, it's all about more rights to Toronto. Only after receiving those right *may* they consider expanding to the rest of Canada. I think t
75 YVR1968 : Point 1: Exactly. Point 2: Exactly. Point 3: Duh! But to use this as bait for ONE link out of YYZ is crap. I would hardly say YYZ lacks in direct air
76 Post contains links YVR1968 : Here they go again! http://www.canada.com/Emirates+Airli...anadian+service/1370160/story.html My favourite quote from this article is: "It desperately
77 Threepoint : I like how they drag some pro-business viewpoint into the story, even if it belongs to a guy with one of the more obscure enterprises out there. Live
78 Lightsaber : While I agree this is mostly about YYZ, I do expect YVR to see EK service if rights were to be expanded. I still see a market there. How about a comp
79 Sebring : There is enough traffic for EK and EY only because most of the flight is sold to other destinations like India and Pakistan. My wife is flying to Ind
80 Gr8Circle : AI and 9W both operate almost daily services between India and YYZ (AI shortly increasing # of flights).....AC has repeatedly started and discontinue
81 Sebring : This is a huge crock of crap. And no Brit should lecture the world about competition the way the British government has manipulated Heathrow access t
82 Directorguy : Believe it or not, but I think the fact that DXB is more of a transit hub than an O&D city (although O&D is sizeable in real numbers) makes it able t
83 Viscount724 : That is not correct. Just look at KL which has always relied very heavily on 6th freedom traffic connecting at AMS. O&D traffic between Canada and AM
84 Lightsaber : EK to YYZ would offer great connections as several have already noted. KE now has great access to Canada, but a tiny network to India. So the level of
85 Viscount724 : However, YVR still has 9 airlines with online service to India via both the Pacific and Atlantic (mileage not much different either way) -- BA KL LH
86 Post contains links Jambrain : not forgetting Italy http://www.arabianbusiness.com/539389-italy-emirates
87 Ikramerica : This has always been my problem with EK's growth plans. They depend on most nations bowing down and saying: "sure, you can have unrestricted access to
88 Threepoint : Huh? AC is about as well connected from YYZ as one could get.
89 Viscount724 : A quick check of current AC schedules shows nonstop service from YYZ to 28 cities in Canada, 50 in the USA, and 44 in 28 other countries/territories.
90 Ikramerica : The point is, EK will connect pax from canada to various places that either AC already flies direct, or that AC connects with it's partners NH and LH.
91 Lightsaber : I would scratch a few off the list unless you wish to go to only BOM or DEL (or maybe MAA). For example, I am still waiting for a friend to set a wed
92 YVR1968 : The fact is, the vast, and I mean, vast majority of passengers from YVR-India would be going to Delhi. Even YVR-Mumbai traffic would be a trickle com
93 HAMAD : There are two points here: 1- YYZ has a large indian population, if you see most of the passengers checking in on emirates flight you will see this. t
94 Ikramerica : Not to mention that you can connect in India to other cities for the few who want to. Why Canada needs EK for this, only EK can explain completely.
95 Huaiwei : Canada in theory doesn't need any foreign airline to connect that country with the world, since there is good old AC to do the job alone. So perhaps
96 Threepoint : It's not that all 10 airlines need to serve all Indian airports. The point is that from Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto or Montreal, we can fly to most l
97 YVR1968 : Yes, EK can explain this completely, with their fluffy news stories, bogus comparisons and overly optimistic economic figures. Like I said before, I
98 DavidYYC : ^ Said with quite a bit of glee!? Amazing how people across Canada get some kind of vicarious pleasure over Alberta not posting huge surpluses. Funny
99 Viscount724 : But there are dozens of daily connecting flights from BOM and DEL to HYD, if you don't want to use BA or LH.
100 YVR1968 : I honestly believe EK is feeding false hopes to Western Canada to push Western Canadians for a more liberal air agreement that will give EK what it r
101 SunriseValley : I would imagine the routing would be very similar to DXB-LAX...whatever that is ! If there is a route that goes close to the pole the headings would
102 Directorguy : The 3rd quote sums up my comment the most. Why would passengers from DXB connect from YYZ to NYC, IAD, LAX, SFO when they can fly to these cities non
103 Huaiwei : I see. No Canadian passenger ought to enjoy the convenience of non-stop flights too. So not only should no foreign airline fly into Canada since AC c
104 Threepoint : Try living in a place that becomes untenable during each cycle of Albertan prosperity. Nobody across Canada relishes Albertan misery, but it sure is
105 YVR1968 : I hear what you are saying, but I think you have blown what people are trying to say well out of context. You have to look at each market and analyse
106 Ikramerica : Somehow, EK is trying to convince everyone that connecting in DXB is really important and far more valuable than connecting in London, Tokyo, Frankfu
107 Threepoint : Very nicely summed up. The second half of that sentence in particular is what the Canadian govt has to consider. They must keep in mind the nature of
108 Post contains links YVR1968 : It may very well be, you are right. But, OZ has publicly stated YVR is on their radar. I actually believe this more than the EK "stories!" http://atw
109 Threepoint : I wondered why OZ hadn't appeared in YVR already. Considering that article was written almost a year ago (and a few market events have occurred since
110 Lightsaber : Might it be due to the Korea/Canada 'open skies?' I think EK would not only make money, but there would be a customer benefit for them to have more f
111 Astuteman : Presumably that is in a 10-across 777? At least an upgrade to an A380 would change that... I suspect 90% LF's being the norm indicates that there is
112 Directorguy : Surely there would be a stimulation of the market? In many cases, an additional airline entering any given maket will provide more seats, lower fares
113 SQ_EK_freak : Well connecting through DXB is an additional option that would be offered to passengers that in all is a benefit, and if the fares EK offer are cheap
114 Pnwtraveler : AC's relationship with LH goes beyond just being STAR Alliance members. They have a revenue sharing arrangement on flights from Canada to Germany. Th
115 SQ_EK_freak : I suppose that means all the more reason for protection from the Canadian government. In transit yes Canada probably has the same restrictions, but i
116 JoeCanuck : The 10 across didn't bother me...it was the quality of the seats. They just aren't comfortable.
117 Gr8Circle : The India-Canada passenger market is not really determined by call-centers and other outsourced services.....it's the huge Indian origin population i
118 Post contains links YVR1968 : You may be right, the downturn may not be as bad as other jurisdictions, but did you read the latest unemployment stats for Alberta in February? 24,0
119 Pnwtraveler : I was refering to business connections and citing one area that was currently declining. The large South Asian community and travel to visit relative
120 Huaiwei : No I do not think I have missed your point. In fact, I understand it so well that when put in very simple terms, that is precisely what you are argui
121 Viscount724 : A government-owned airline with deep pockets can stand to lose money much longer than privately-owned airlines like those based in North America. Gov
122 9252fly : This has certainly turned out to be an interesting thread. Is it now fair to conclude that EK is a poacher and the restrictions Canada has imposed are
123 JAL : I hope they will gain more access to Canada but unfortunately they might not get it since the Canadian government will want to protect Air Canada from
124 Pnwtraveler : You mustn't have read much of this thread. AC has been on record as in favour of open skies and would love to pick up passengers in the US and fly on
125 Post contains links HB-IWC : Emirates has announced the deployment of the A380 on the Toronto route. Since the current thread seems to have run its course and a new topic has been
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Question For EK777&others (EK To Canada) posted Tue May 1 2001 12:14:35 by Marco
EK Coming To Canada posted Thu May 31 2007 05:49:52 by Emirates773ER
Access To European Pax Data For US Govt posted Tue Sep 23 2003 20:10:32 by DoorsToManual
Any Websites For 9/11 Diverted Flights To Canada? posted Sun Feb 3 2002 04:16:22 by Bobcat
ET Plans To Fly To Canada After B787's Delivery posted Thu Jan 22 2009 03:35:31 by LIPZ
US Airways Codeshare With AC And UAL To Canada posted Sat Dec 20 2008 11:46:21 by Yegbey01
Air France To Canada posted Thu Nov 20 2008 12:46:45 by Thenoflyzone
OK For Spirit To Begin FLL MDE posted Fri Nov 14 2008 15:00:08 by A300AA
UK Access To Tokyo Haneda posted Thu Nov 13 2008 11:24:57 by Humberside
More Real Estate For DL To Help W/MTC? posted Thu Nov 6 2008 22:13:52 by FlyASAGuy2005