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Planes On The Ground For Very Long  
User currently offlineRsrik From India, joined Oct 2008, 160 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15421 times:

There is a similar posting on a.net,
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/1442900/
but please read on.

Five 744s spending a collective time of 79 hours each day on the tarmac. Got to be a killer!
How does Qantas endure this? The rounded off ground times for their flights to LAX are as follows (I am aware that on some days the timings change).

From SYD:
Approx 11 hrs on the ground for QF 11/12
15 hrs for QF 107/108

MEL:
Approx 10 hrs for QF 25/26
16 hrs for QF 93/94

BNE:
Approx 17 hrs for QF 15/16

AKL:
10 hrs for QF 25/26

A considerable hit on utilization.

An other route that I am aware of that also ends up with a heavy aircraft way long on the ground is CO's EWR - HKG service. Flt 98/99 stays in HKG for 15.5 hrs each day (or night).

On the a.net post that I referred above, I read some very good reasons why these planes are on the ground so long. But what I did not see there is, how do the airlines ensure that the downtime does not impact the economics of operating such routes. For instance, at LAX, UA can rotate their aircraft better instead of resting them on the tarmac all day like QF.

I am also curious to know which other routes end up with a plane on the ground and unproductive for a very long time. (The definition of 'very long time' can be debated. Let's consider times longer than 10 hrs)

Thanks
Sri

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15424 times:

Well, Until recently, I imagine that QF has had pretty healthy profit margins on these flights. I should also point out that certain maintenance tasks can be performed while staying at these outstations.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineCalramper From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15404 times:

consider fact that in LAX QF does MX on their aircraft much like CO does in HKG


ETOPS-Engines Turn or People Swim
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15415 times:

Quoting Rsrik (Thread starter):
But what I did not see there is, how do the airlines ensure that the downtime does not impact the economics of operating such routes. For instance, at LAX, UA can rotate their aircraft better instead of resting them on the tarmac all day like QF.

One way is that QF have set up small maintenance base at LAX to take advantage of the enforced lay over. They do the same at LHR where BA does some maintenance on the long lay over B744. QF used to do same to BA aircraft in SYD when BA operated the B744, don't know if that still happens on the B777s.

Gemuser

[Edited 2009-02-28 23:12:50]


DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15386 times:

EK's 773 sits on the ground at MEL for 12 hours.

User currently offlineRsrik From India, joined Oct 2008, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15360 times:

Assuming that they can get some MX done, it couldn't save them much, could it? I mean, how much MX might they need on 5 aircraft every day.

Quoting Tayser (Reply 4):
EK's 773 sits on the ground at MEL for 12 hours.

This probably means, and I say this without checking EK's schedule, that they have similar down time at other Australian cities and New Zealand. That would make it quite significant as well, Thanks Tayser.


User currently offlinePlatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 15299 times:
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Quoting Rsrik (Thread starter):
For instance, at LAX, UA can rotate their aircraft better instead of resting them on the tarmac all day like QF.

UA turned a 747 in 90 minuted daily when they had a 747 on the HKG route. But recently their SYD aircraft sits for about 10-11 hours down at the hanger. Some MX checks are scheduled during this time.



Never forget United 93
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 15290 times:

I should mention that if the airline thinks it's a good idea, I won't comlpain. It is pretty cool to land at LAX and have the first planes you see be three QF 747s and one from Air Pacific.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 15287 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Rsrik (Reply 5):
EK's 773 sits on the ground at MEL for 12 hours.

This probably means, and I say this without checking EK's schedule, that they have similar down time at other Australian cities and New Zealand. That would make it quite significant as well, Thanks Tayser.

4 of EKs daily flights to Australia avoid that downtime by continuing on to New Zealand actually



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 15180 times:



Quoting Rsrik (Thread starter):
From SYD:
Approx 11 hrs on the ground for QF 11/12
15 hrs for QF 107/108

QF107/108 is the exception-- it goes to JFK during the day.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15134 times:



Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 9):
QF107/108 is the exception-- it goes to JFK during the day.

I thought that this flight is/will be an A330. Maybe that was just one of those rumors on these boards though.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMinister From India, joined Jul 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15104 times:

AI's nonstop flights from BOM/DEL into JFK arrive at about 7 am.

They depart around 10 pm, so they spend around 15 hours on the ground.

Prajay


User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15017 times:

Some of the USA airlines (AA,DL,UNITED) flying to EZE, their planes spend all the day on ground waiting for next night flight (10a.m. to 7p.m.).

User currently offlineFlymad From South Africa, joined Jun 2006, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 14952 times:

AFAIK EK also has a bird that sits at MRU for over 13 hours each day and what about SA's birds to LHR and many other carriers to JNB as well that arrive early a.m. and only depart in the evening.

User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 844 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 14882 times:

AC does the same in HKG with the 77W from YVR. Arrives in the evening and departs the next afternoon.

User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14773 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 9):
QF107/108 is the exception-- it goes to JFK during the day.

I thought that this flight is/will be an A330. Maybe that was just one of those rumors on these boards though.

Yes it is a rumor. Currently Qantas dosn't fly any A330's across the pacific, All flights are 744 or A380 and it is a 744 on the LAX- JFK leg


User currently offlineQF108 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14753 times:

Dont forget QF 5/6 to/from SYD-Frankfurt. Arrives at 05.15 then departs 23.30 so theres another QF 744 on the ground for long hours. On the flip side there are plenty of airlines that park in SYD for long periods through the day. BA and Etihad are two that arrive early then depart later in the afternoon. Granted its not as much down time as the QF birds at ports like LAX, FRA, LHR.

Mark



Blessed are the Cheesemakers !
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2094 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14718 times:



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 12):
Some of the USA airlines (AA,DL,UNITED) flying to EZE, their planes spend all the day on ground waiting for next night flight (10a.m. to 7p.m.).

Same for DL's flights to/from GRU, GIG, and SCL. In fact, DL makes good use of this down time by having the aircraft go through a "deep" cleaning. Better labor rates as well.


User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3068 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14640 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 8):
4 of EKs daily flights to Australia avoid that downtime by continuing on to New Zealand actually

In addition, EK's flights to PER do not have very long long turnarounds (they're about 4-5 hours long), as it is a shorter trip and they manage to get back to an earlier arrival period at DXB. If I'm not mistaken, SYD has 2 EK flights, but they both continue to CHC and AKL, while BNE continues to AKL, and one of the 2 MEL flights continue to AKL. So, only the one MEL flight has a really long layover, while, the rest only have a 'significant' layover in NZ or PER (5'ish hours).

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14634 times:

At LHR - CO18 (B757-200W) is the RON aircraft, with a 2120hrs arrival.

The planned rotation for this aircraft is CO111 - a 1235hrs departure. That gives a ground time of 15 hours 15 minutes.

If often turns around as CO19 - a 1540hrs departure. That's 18 hours and 20 minutes of ground time.

This weekend, it's turning around as CO29 - a 1030hrs departure. That gives a mere 13 hours and 10 minutes of ground time.


User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14625 times:

SAS' A340-300 sits in BKK more than 9 hours. Not good considering their small fleet size,


Future flights: CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-LAX
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 33
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14455 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):
QF used to do same to BA aircraft in SYD when BA operated the B744, don't know if that still happens on the B777s.

BA has one B744 and one B777 on the ground at SYD from 0630 to 1800. Local. The reason is the NJB at SYD and LHR make this the only way to operate the route.
BA have their own engineers now at SYD.


User currently offlineWukka From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1017 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14425 times:

Now this is just something that I've heard offhand from a jet pilot, that it's better to turn ASAP, rather than let the jet cool down and be re-fired. Basically, keep it warm.

I may be way off base, and if so, my apologies.

That said, this particular gentleman stated that he would rather have a warm engine on a turn than a fresh start after sitting for hours (or overnight), due to the shrinkage of seals and whatnot as the engine and airframe cools and fluids start drooling onto the tarmac.

He stated that a stagnant jet is one that will give you problems, particularly the ones that have been sitting overnight at a gate in temperate climates.

I thought it was silly at first, until I realized that every one of my delayed or canceled flights (with the exception of one out of JFK) was the first flight of the morning, or after a "long" turn.

Has anyone else had this experience?



We can agree to disagree.
User currently offline757ops From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14297 times:

ET have aircraft on ground everyday...

757 to LHR arr 0715 dep 2100

767 to BRU arr 0800 dep 2100

757 to ARN arr 0845 dep 2150

737 to EBB arr 1300 dep 1800


User currently offlineFlyboysp From Australia, joined Apr 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14158 times:



Quoting Rsrik (Reply 5):
Assuming that they can get some MX done, it couldn't save them much, could it? I mean, how much MX might they need on 5 aircraft every day.

As mentioned MX is performed while at LAX. Another factor which results in extended ground time in LAX is due to connecting passengers. With an extended layover in LAX, QF has 13/14 hours worth of feed from AA and the DFW hub, as well as other cities and airlines, that help to fill seats on the flights back to Australia. As the overnight flights back to Australia are popular, QF feels that it is worth having spend the day in LAX.

When the SYD bound flights arrive from the US, they spend fewer hours on the ground . The aircraft could be flying on to JNB, HKG, returning to the US or even repositioning to MEL or Avalon, with departure times of 3-4 hours after arriving.



#proudtobeabulldog
25 Smi0006 : I beleive that the AKL flight (EK406/EK407) does not have long in AKL in MEL at all, it usually head back to MEL then 90 mins then back off to DXB fo
26 Burnsie28 : Well if Qantas just turned the planes it would get back in Australia at times not favorable to anybody, wouldn't allow for connections, etc.
27 CALPSAFltSkeds : Numerous airlines have units on the ground in South America after overnights southbound, making up overnights northbound. Many airlines have seasonal
28 727forever : While generally his is true, for these long turns with MX being done it doesn't pose as much of a problem. The reason is that after the MX is done, t
29 Virginblue4 : Are you sure cos there are quite a few pics with Qantas A330's at LAX? Jordan
30 AmricanShamrok : I've noticed this too with Asiana Airlines at ORD where their aircraft is on the ground for 8 hours (5pm-1am). Obviously not as bad as 11/12 hours but
31 Rsrik : Thank you all for your posts. So, is the takeaway here, that it does not cripple QF very much because their aircraft spend a significant amount of tim
32 Eghansen : Nearly all commercial aircraft currently flying sit on the ground for about 10 hours per day. The average flying hours per day for commercial aircraf
33 Kl911 : Well, according to this extremely good article KLM has an average utilisation rate of over 16 hours a day for it¨s global widebody operation. Less th
34 Kaitak744 : And these 2 777-200LRs, as far as I know, just sit on the tarmac the whole 15 hours, doing no mx checks or anything. That is a true waste of aircraft
35 Bingo : Easy...$20k for a RT Business Class Ticket from NYC to SYD...But the service and those Morressy Jammies make it worth the 20k....especially if work i
36 Eghansen : In SAN, HA has two flights per day from HNL arriving at 18:45 and 21:05 respectively. They depart at 6:20 and 9:30 respectively. They are on the groun
37 Viscount724 : It spends 18 hours at HKG. Arrives 1745, leaves the next day at 1145 (not quite the afternoon). QF used the A330-200 AKL-LAX-AKL for a while a few mo
38 JohnClipper : Well according to the airline, it leaves at 12:45pm, which is the AFTERNOON...
39 B727 : So if the planes arrive in a certain order do the leave in the same order? For example: does the plane that flew in from a certain destination return
40 Airvan00 : Yes, that is why I used the word "currently", as someone else has pointed out A332's were used last year on the MEL-ALK-LAX flights (QF25/26) to cove
41 Birdbrainz : My father flew for UA for 30 years, and he said this exactly. It almost sounded like him making that comment. He didn't say anything about problems p
42 Viscount724 : I was looking at AC schedules for late March when it departs at 1145. I think it's related to the change to daylight saving time in Canada next weeke
43 CALPSAFltSkeds : Wow, airlines don;'t necessarily route the same crew with the aircraft. There are 24 hour layovers and crews arriving late at night can depart midday
44 EK413 : This is a big surprise... EK are known for their ambitious plans of covering every corner of the globe by utilizing its equipment where ever possible
45 Kiwiandrew : and your username would be EK413 rather than TG___ because ? In fact I think TG killed themselves quite effectively from this route with all the chop
46 NZ107 : Actually, it spends just as long as the EK A380 in AKL. Arrives 1340 local and departs at 1850. EK412/3 (A380) arrives at 1330 and leaves at 1845. Al
47 Airvan00 : And don't forget the UA 744. I see those 4 aircraft every day parked up against the fence as I drive past on the M5east.
48 EK413 : My famous user name is up for grabs if your interested... I have set a bidding price of $1000... Do I hear $2000... To be honest yes EK have the bett
49 UN_B732 : Doesn't LY have some 747s that sit at JFK for a while? I seem to remember there's always one parked on the ramp for a few hours at a time. -A
50 Rsrik : So...Not to belabour the point... Is my take away here that parking 5 jets (6 counting the one at FRA) all day doing nothing does not really impact th
51 Kiwiandrew : I guess that QF have worked out the cost of needing a larger fleet to counter the lowered utilisation , then calculated the yields they get from the
52 Burkhard : Still the ratio of flight time over ground time is not bad for these birds. And if these departure times grant the best load factor or yield, it is th
53 EK413 : I believe AKL / CHC ground handling cost's are lower than the cost's at SYD / MEL / BNE... This would also contribute to EK's decisions to operate th
54 MAN2SIN2BKK : [quote=TristarSteve,reply=21]BA has one B744 and one B777 on the ground at SYD from 0630 to 1800. Local. The reason is the NJB at SYD and LHR make thi
55 Directorguy : Long layovers for airline like Qantas can be a problem, but their codesharing agreement with BA on Oz-UK reduced the need for at least one 747.
56 NZ107 : Yes but they can actually make money rather than watch money being eaten away by the airports.. My reply was mainly in response to the timing of EK 4
57 EBGflyer : SK973 arrives at 1525 hours and leaves again 9 hours later at 0025 hours as SK972. After switching to daylight savings in Europe the plane arrives at
58 2travel2know : When CM started EZE and GRU, the B737-700 would sit on those airports tarmacs for 16-17hours. 2000h arrival / 1300h departure local time. If I'm not m
59 Kiwiandrew : IIRC that is a single weekly rotation , so it flies the same crew in both directions , thus crew rest dictates a long ground time
60 Hotelmode : Daylight flights waste a whole day as far as business pax are concerned so night flights generally have higher yields. This way they can get a half d
61 Nicholaschee : The SQ 744 (SQ219/220) also makes a 12 hr overnight stay in SYD.
62 Eghansen : Lots of airlines do rotate aircraft. United swaps aircraft at Narita for example. Southwest usually flies into San Diego from one city and back out t
63 Smi0006 : Hahah yeah the poor EK crew who bring the 404 in go back out that night on the 405, well they used to not sure what they do no with the retimed fligh
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