A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9067 posts, RR: 13 Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10469 times:
KL will re-introduce the 747-400 on their AMS-CUR route starting this summer season (29MAR). The MD11 which is currently used will no longer fly this route. KL has surprised me quite a bit with their Caribbean operations. First AUA is axed and now the 744 is re-introduced. The latter news is fantastic news for CUR!!!
If my memory serves me well, the 744 has less business class seats compared to the MD11. Does this change to the 744 have to do with the economic crisis (less business class travel, shifting to more economy class travel on the route)?
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10421 times:
For me, the good news is that the MD11 will be deployed on the PBM route and the frequency to PBM will eventually be increased to 5 weekly (3 weekly 744 now).
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10357 times:
Quoting A388 (Thread starter): If my memory serves me well, the 744 has less business class seats compared to the MD11
KL B747/B74M is the most premium and high-yielding plane in KLM fleet. It has 41 business seats in two cabins in the upper deck and lower deck. The A330 has 30 seats on business while the B772 and B77W have both 35 business seats. The MD-11, by contrast, has only 24 business seats (with a very nice and small front cabin).
JNB will be downgraded to B772 (currently KL uses the B747 on this route). It seems there has been some major fleet distribution accross KL network.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10367 times:
Although the CUR route will be upgraded to B744, the frequency of the route will be downgraded from daily to just 5 weekly.
In further Caribbean news, KLM will close its SXM station. After the closure of AUA, KLM was planning to operate a twice weekly AMS BON SXM AMS triangle but those plans have been shelved and SXM will now be solely served by AF.
All of those changes leave KLM with just 10 weekly flights to the ABC Islands: 5 weekly AMS CUR AMS and 5 weekly AMS BON GYE UIO BON AMS flights.
The AMS PBM route will indeed be operated by MD11, but the frequency is to remain at 3 weekly for the time being, although a frequency upgauge is envisaged for the future. The AMS PTY route, finally would anyway operate 5 weekly with MD11.
Quoting A388 (Thread starter): If my memory serves me well, the 744 has less business class seats compared to the MD11.
The B744 has 42 business class seats compared to just 24 such seats in the MD11. On the CUR route, however, the front WBC cabin is often sold as economy, leaving just 24 WBC seats on the upperdeck.
Krist0f From Belgium, joined May 2005, 38 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10350 times:
I believe the 744 has more business class seats than the MD11. I've flown the MD11 to AUA previously and the 744 Combi to JNB, for the 744 Combi there are the Business seats in the front on the lower deck and the entire upper deck is also business. I'm not sure about the KL 744 (non combi model). They may have put this larger capacity plane on this route to account for the passenger increase to CUR due to KL dropping AUA.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10300 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4): On the CUR route, however, the front WBC cabin is often sold as economy, leaving just 24 WBC seats on the upperdeck.
This is what I call waste of resources considering some other destination could market the full business cabin as business class fare. Apparently KL does the same to BKK selling the front business cabin as economy. I struglle to understand the rationale of such policy considering KL premium cabins are already far smaller than other legacy carriers.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9067 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10266 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4): Although the CUR route will be upgraded to B744, the frequency of the route will be downgraded from daily to just 5 weekly.
In further Caribbean news, KLM will close its SXM station. After the closure of AUA, KLM was planning to operate a twice weekly AMS BON SXM AMS triangle but those plans have been shelved and SXM will now be solely served by AF.
News here in CUR says the 744 will operate daily with 2 flights being combined with SXM. I just checked booking to SXM after 29MAR and indeed no flights show up. Must be a misunderstanding.
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4): Quoting A388 (Thread starter):
If my memory serves me well, the 744 has less business class seats compared to the MD11.
The B744 has 42 business class seats compared to just 24 such seats in the MD11. On the CUR route, however, the front WBC cabin is often sold as economy, leaving just 24 WBC seats on the upperdeck.
Thanks for the correction, this is probably what I remembered (business class being used as economy class).
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10157 times:
Quoting Trystero (Reply 2): I would have a hard time deciding whether it's great to have a 744 or break my heart to loose an MD11...
Regarding the PBM route, I'm happy with this change as I finally get a chance to fly the MD11. Furthermore, I like the PTV's in the MD11. They don't have that in the 744. I don't mind it during the daytime flight when people tend to mingle a lot on the PBM flights, but the night time flights can get quite tedious as everybody (but me) is sleeping.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6): Apparently KL does the same to BKK selling the front business cabin as economy.
Really? I assume only for FB elite, or first come first serve? Or only for the full flex Y fares?
Quoting Draigonair (Reply 7): No more SXM? damnit!! Was hopen te go there on future KLM flights!!
Disappointing indeed...
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4): The AMS PBM route will indeed be operated by MD11, but the frequency is to remain at 3 weekly for the time being, although a frequency upgauge is envisaged for the future.
This is indeed my understanding. The world weeks fares resulted in full planes in February on the PBM route (I also took advantage of this), but I don't know what the yield was for those flights. I suppose the load factor is an issue, hence the "downgrade" to the MD11.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9067 posts, RR: 13 Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10144 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6): Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
On the CUR route, however, the front WBC cabin is often sold as economy, leaving just 24 WBC seats on the upperdeck.
This is what I call waste of resources considering some other destination could market the full business cabin as business class fare. Apparently KL does the same to BKK selling the front business cabin as economy. I struglle to understand the rationale of such policy considering KL premium cabins are already far smaller than other legacy carriers.
Rgs,
I think it all has to do with demand forecasts. If the 744 is a better option for KL in the summer, than the 744 will be used. Maybe cargo demand to/from CUR also has its part in the decision to use the 744.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10111 times:
I noticed on the KL website for the PBM route that the 744 is again listed as equipment as of November 2009. Does this mean that the equipment will revert back to the 744 after the summer or that the KL website has not been updated for the 2009/2010 winter season as it's simply too far off?
Mats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 584 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9803 times:
I'm a little baffled. I always thought that Aruba had the highest population, and was the business and financial center of the Netherlands Antilles.
Or is it because SkyTeam has a strong enough presence in Aruba that connections via the US Mainland are more easily accomplished from Aruba?
Severnaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9779 times:
Quoting Mats (Reply 14): I always thought that Aruba had the highest population, and was the business and financial center of the Netherlands Antilles.
Technically speaking, Aruba isn't part of the N.A.
It's also interesting to see the other Antilles requesting autonomous rule as well.
Quoting Kappel (Reply 12): Does this mean that the equipment will revert back to the 744 after the summer or that the KL website has not been updated for the 2009/2010 winter season as it's simply too far off?
KL will operate AMS-PBM-AMS 3x weekly B744 until Nov. 2009. PY will still fly its three weekly flights.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9067 posts, RR: 13 Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9636 times:
Quoting Mats (Reply 14): I'm a little baffled. I always thought that Aruba had the highest population, and was the business and financial center of the Netherlands Antilles.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9621 times:
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18): Strange, I guess it hasn't updated as yet in the schedules. Thanks for the correction.
I just checked the KL website, and it is actually in the schedule. If you do a mock booking, the MD11 shows up.
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 15): Technically speaking, Aruba isn't part of the N.A.
Indeed, and CUR is the business center of the antilles anyway. Aruba is much more a tourist destination, much less (premium) traffic and such from the Netherlands. It's really no coincedence that AUA has been cut and CUR hasn't.
SA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 2916 posts, RR: 20 Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9588 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 3): JNB will be downgraded to B772 (currently KL uses the B747 on this route). It seems there has been some major fleet distribution accross KL network.
When will this change come into effect? Will the frequencies also be affected?
Rgds
SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9535 times:
Quoting JRadier (Reply 22): I'm not too sure, but I think it was at least BON that will become a special municipality of the Netherlands
Yes, most of the smaller islands (Saba, St. Eustatius, Bonaire) will become a sort of special municipality. Aruba will maintain it's status and St. Maarten and Curacao will receive a similar status.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9524 times:
Quoting SA7700 (Reply 21): When will this change come into effect? Will the frequencies also be affected?
Starting Summer 2009, ie from April onwards. JNB and KIX will switch equipment, this is to say that AMS-KIX will be upgraded to B74M while AMS-JNB downgraded to B772. The change is not seasonal and will continue in Winter 2009.
One of the reasons for equipment swap is the fall in cargo demand in JNB, in part because Martinair Cargo operates in AMS-JNB MD-11F and KL is now coordinating routes with Martinair Cargo considering the cargo airline was bought by AF/KL group. There was no reason for KL to compete for cargo with a subsidiary (Martinair).
Btw, frequencies will not be affected, KL will continue AMS-JNB daily. As customary, AMS-CPT B772 daily will be reduce to AMS-CPT B772 5 x week in the Summer 2009.
Rgs,
[Edited 2009-03-03 08:48:19]
25 HB-IWC: The following should be more or less the situation for the upcoming summer schedule, as well as a comparison with last year for the KLM longhaul netwo
26 A388: Word here is still that SXM will be combined with CUR (KL785). Keep me informed. Edit: I just spoke to KL here in CUR and SXM is planned for the summ
27 AA B777-200: I thought that CTU was going to be transfered to the A330! PBM should be increased to 4 times weekly and eventually 5 times weekly.
28 Canberra: And then again, seems to be 6x weekly at least in May. Just had my flight cancelled 26/May and the Tuesday before and after also no flights. /M
29 76er: Correct. MP is in the process of upgrading its JNB flights from the MD11F to 744F, with 3 out of 4 weekly frequencies already being operated by the 7
30 Hardiwv: Thanks for the info. We can clearly note that KL is coordinatins its deployment of the B74M according toe MP cargo network. AMS-VCP MD-11F will start
31 Larspl: maybe with the upcoming deliveries of A330 11 and 12,. the current fleet hasn't got the right equipment installed for that route AFAIK.
32 PHKLM: It's not loaded in the schedules nor bookable at klm.com so what makes you believe this? It would be very strange to see the flight re-instated durin
33 LarSPL: I have to correct myself,. there may be an equipment shift as of may 4th.
34 Humberside: Anyone else (Arkefly?) link AMS and SXM?
35 Viscount724: With the growing global economic disaster, premium cabins on many routes are difficult to fill now without major discounting. I expect many carriers
36 Hardiwv: Again KLM will reintroduce the mega-bus in GRU and dump Y seats in this market. The 77W will operate 3 weekly from 30 August. I really do not see the
37 A388: Why does MP make a stop in BEN on these AMS-bound flights? Fuel stop? What makes me believe this? KLM's head quarter here in CUR. As I have mentioned
38 76er: Correct, the MD11 needs to stop for fuel most of the time, the 74 can make NBO-AMS nonstop.
39 SCL767: It's strange but OAG still shows KL 0763 operating Tu Th valid from 3/31/2009 until 10/22/2009. Will KL ever upgrade the AMS-BON-GYE-UIO-BON-AMS serv
40 Lfutia: I thought KL was going daily for ORD in the summer although good to see it was retimed to the morning instead of the afternoon! Leo
41 Hardiwv: He was referring to the cargo service which needs a stop-over for refuel. KL operations AMS-BON-GYE-UIO were downgraded from 6 weekly to 5 weekly MD-
42 Lamedianaranja: You predicted this a long time ago. It's a pity, also because it coincides with the disappearance of AUA.
43 A388: I am still awaiting confirmation of SXM being axed. KL's office in CUR says the SXM flight will be combined with CUR (KL785). The luchtvaartnieuws.nl
44 YVR1968: Was just looking at amadeus and this looks like ATL is now down to 5 weekly (Daily x 2,7)?
45 A388: I think if KL will upgrade the GYE/UIO route it will be nonstop flights from AMS, meaning no BON stop necessary. I think the 777 can handle that but
46 JRadier: Shouldn't be too much, as I guess they will revert back to AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS, but without the stop in BON.
47 Hardiwv: I really do not think UIO-GYE market can sustain nonstop operations now. Ecuador's economy is not really doing that well and foreign investors are sc
48 76er: Agreed. It would't surprise me that if and when this happens MP will assigned to operate BON, and maybe even SXM. That would leave KL with just CUR i
49 Hardiwv: I agree with you. Ultimately we will see MP taking care of the Caribbean network and even perhaps PBM (which in the past was MP station). Rgs,
50 A388: I also agree with this, except for the CUR route which I think is too good for KL to pass on to another airline. Time will tell..... A388
51 Hardiwv: CUR could remain stand-alone, even because business performance there is indeed good. Thanks for your point. Rgs,
52 YVR1968: Somebody mentioned in another thread that there is a "rumour" KLM is reconsidering either cancelling the new YYC route or postponing the start date. I
53 By188b: SXM shown bookable for random dates in August 11:40 Thu 13 Aug 09 Amsterdam (Schiphol) Total journey time: 8 hours 35 minutes shown 1 stop AMS-SXM 15:
54 A388: This should be the flight continueing to CUR before heading back to AMS. Flight will operate on tuesdays and thursdays as KL785. This would mean that
55 Kappel: I think PBM will stay with KL as well. MP has already withdrawn from this route.
56 A388: If PBM is mainly a VFR route with little business class travel, than I can imagine the route being taken over by MP. We must not forget that MP is no
57 A388: Is there any update on the AMS-SXM flight? Word here still is that the flight will be routed AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS on days 2 and 4 of the week making CUR a
58 SCL767: That's what KL's schedule displays; AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS 2x weekly, (B744), and AMS-CUR 5x weekly, (B744). Also, AMS-PBM will be downgraded to a MD-11 ope
59 HB-IWC: The AMS SXM CUR AMS triangle has now been loaded in the system for days 2 and 4. AMS PBM will operate 4 weekly on days 1, 2, 4 and 6 as KL713/714 and
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