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BA To Brace For 2 Years Of Losses! Willie Walsh  
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3264 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10152 times:

This from the London Evening Standard today.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...il-out%2C+BA+boss+warns/article.do

Will they put the new First Class cabin on hold if Premium traffic is down by so much or do you invest and hope to lure them back?  Confused


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
107 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTcxdegsy From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10106 times:

There is an argument that the core travellers who always travel First are less affected by any downturn. The key market where BA will be hit is the business traveller, where Companies start to downgrade their staff from First-Club, Club-Prem, etc.

They've probably already committed the funds for the design and manufacture of the new First seat, so I'd expect them to continue the roll out, albeit it at a slower pace than previously planned.



next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10067 times:

They still need to invest in new products as so many competitors are so far ahead these days!

User currently offlineAlasdair1982 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10014 times:

Like making WT+ a more suitable alternative to CW for businesses cutting back on travel costs etc?

User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9982 times:

This is really some bad news... The problem is that BA has put all its eggs in one basket : Premium and LHR. With this crisis everyone is looking at cheap economy class fares or at LCC.

Lufthansa and AirFrance/KLM seem to cope a bit better as they better cover the market with a mix of Premium and Leisure travelling public.

BA needs to do something and fast.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9952 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
This is really some bad news... The problem is that BA has put all its eggs in one basket : Premium and LHR. With this crisis everyone is looking at cheap economy class fares or at LCC.

Lufthansa and AirFrance/KLM seem to cope a bit better as they better cover the market with a mix of Premium and Leisure travelling public.

BA needs to do something and fast.

With all due respect, isn't this exactly what some of us have been saying for some time, only to be laughed at and accused of being BA bashers by the usual BA apologists???


User currently offlineHotelmode From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 460 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9804 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 5):
With all due respect, isn't this exactly what some of us have been saying for some time, only to be laughed at and accused of being BA bashers by the usual BA apologists???

Mostly because it was and is still rubbish. Premium traffic always drops off quickly as it is generally booked later, but it also recovers soonest. Leisure traffic takes longer to fall off because its booked further in advance it also recovers much much slower than premium traffic. All airlines are going to be making huge losses, the european carriers will start to feel exactly the same winds in time, the eurozone is in just as much trouble as the UK just 6 months delayed.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9662 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Will they put the new First Class cabin on hold if Premium traffic is down by so much or do you invest and hope to lure them back?

FIRST is likely relatively "recession proof" because the step-change in fare is usually far higher then the step-change in service and hard product. So people are flying FIRST because they don't care about the cost difference and those folks are likely still doing okay.

Quoting Alasdair1982 (Reply 3):
Like making WT+ a more suitable alternative to CW for businesses cutting back on travel costs etc?

Folks need to remember that many businessfolk flying on corporate contracts are paying as low as half the published CW fare you can call up right now on ba.com so corporate travel expenses are not nearly as high as some may believe the case. Also, those people are not being flown in Club World so they can lounge about, eat well, drink and watch movies. They're being flown in Club World because they are either expected to be working a good part of that flight or they are getting a solid night's sleep so when they touchdown in LHR in the early morning, they are as well-rested as the people who live in London they are going to see and are not spending an entire day trying to adjust to jet-lag in a hotel somewhere so they can actually get to work 24 hours later.

If BA is seeing loads falling in Club World, it is far better for them to just reduce the fares to stimulate demand - be they corporate or public. Those deals existed when the cabins were going out at 100% load factors so they should doubly be available now if they are not.


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9509 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
The problem is that BA has put all its eggs in one basket : Premium and LHR.

BA putting its so called "eggs in one basket" at LHR will have no affect on its profitability during the recession. Even if BA had numerous flights from Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff to the continent they would still a substantial drop in revenue as most of the country is suffering from the current economic circumstances.

As for relying on Premium traffic, I think it is subject to debate. In good times, Premium traffic is substantially more lucrative, but it is more likely to suffer during tougher economic times. My theory on the matter is that the additional revenue generated from having extra-large Premium cabins in the good times more than offsets the loss of revenue in bad times, and thus I believe the focus on Premium traffic is justified.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
With this crisis everyone is looking at cheap economy class fares or at LCC.

I think "everyone" is exaggerating the situation a bit. There are still plenty of people and companies out there willing to pay top-dollar to fly in business class, and I am sure there will be many more people in stable jobs who will use this period to take advantage of the deeply discounted fares.

As for the rest, I fear the big problem is not that people are looking for cheap economy class fares. Its that they simply won't travel. In an economic slowdown a businessman might decide to fly in economy instead of business. In a severe recession they might decide not to fly at all. A businessman who is travelling on a full-fare economy ticket is still very lucrative for an airline, but one not travelling at all is a problem.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
Lufthansa and AirFrance/KLM seem to cope a bit better as they better cover the market with a mix of Premium and Leisure travelling public.

Will that better mix help them though? People who formerly took long-haul holidays may now holiday nearer to home or not at all.

Also, Europe isn't in a great position either. The UK and Germany seem to be in a race to the bottom. And, as mentioned here, Europe is trailing the UK by around 6 months. LH and AF may have held up well in the past years results, next year the picture won't be so rosy.


User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1326 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9379 times:

Stating the obvious, the recession and the weak British economy means BA suffers. If Willie Walsh does not use this opportunity to reform the working arrangements of the flight crew, cabin crew, he never will. This assumes, of course, he is still in a job come April, May 2009.

User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9272 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 5):
With all due respect, isn't this exactly what some of us have been saying for some time, only to be laughed at and accused of being BA bashers by the usual BA apologists???

Correct.

Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 6):
Mostly because it was and is still rubbish. Premium traffic always drops off quickly as it is generally booked later, but it also recovers soonest. Leisure traffic takes longer to fall off because its booked further in advance it also recovers much much slower than premium traffic. All airlines are going to be making huge losses, the european carriers will start to feel exactly the same winds in time, the eurozone is in just as much trouble as the UK just 6 months delayed.

Not as much rubbish as you think. No one is suggesting that other european carriers won't be hit by the global recession. The issue is that BA's market focus (perhaps a better description than 'eggs in one basket') has been on premuim traffic with particular emphasis across 'the pond'. As this is the market that is most affected in the current climate it is not unreasonable to assume that BA will be harder hit than carriers that have been more diverse in their market focus. Also remember what you describe as leisure traffic on long-haul economy often includes a high proportion of VFR pax who more often than not will still elect to travel.

Charles Darwin said "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, but the one most adaptable to change" this analogy may well apply to the airline industry at this time, or indeed at any time but more so at this turbulent (excuse the pun!) time. The one thing in BA's favour is that they have the cash reserves to see out this crisis, so I don't suggest that this will see BA fold, but I stand by the suggestion that their business model is less resilient in this climate than the other major european carriers. As someone who is of an egalitarian disposition I think it's serves BA right.


User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1326 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9250 times:

A couple of points. The routes to the US make up a fair proportion of BA's revenue but not all.
As for cash burn, the reserves are beginning to slide. Expect a fair amount of commentary in the business press on Wednesday.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9205 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

But BA is not unique in improving their Premium Cabins. SQ has done it with their A388s and 77Ws. QF has done it in First Class with the A388s. UA, AA and DL have all improved their premium cabins. EK has moved their A345 premium cabins (with, I believe, slight modification) to their A388s, 77Ws and 77Ls. And JL recently launched a new First Class product.

And when new products are launched, the airlines often focus it on the most "premium" (and profitable) routes first. JL's new F cabin is only currently available between NRT and JFK/SFO, for example (per jal.com).


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9157 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 11):
The issue is that BA's market focus (perhaps a better description than 'eggs in one basket') has been on premuim traffic with particular emphasis across 'the pond'. As this is the market that is most affected in the current climate it is not unreasonable to assume that BA will be harder hit than carriers that have been more diverse in their market focus.

There is no doubt in my mind that BA are going to be hit hard, but I feel that you are underestimating how hard "more egalitarian" airlines are going to be hit. Lufthansa, for example, has decided to spread the eggs around. The only problem is, where have they put the eggs? China? Japan? South Korea? The economic crisis we are experiencing is having a huge affect on a global basis and carriers such as Air France and Lufthansa which have diversified are still going to be hit hard. Let's not forget, Air France and Lufthansa have very substantial transatlantic presence too and Germany, along with Japan is racing the UK to the bottom of the barrel of ailing economies.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 11):
Also remember what you describe as leisure traffic on long-haul economy often includes a high proportion of VFR pax who more often than not will still elect to travel.

I think that comment is open to debate. Most VFR travel is discretionary and if people are low on money or fear losing their jobs then they will probably reluctantly elect not to travel. I know several people who normally go to see family in Australia at Christmas, but didn't this year.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9137 times:



Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 14):
The economic crisis we are experiencing is having a huge affect on a global basis and carriers such as Air France and Lufthansa which have diversified are still going to be hit hard.

I'm sure they will be hit hard...just not to the extent that BA will.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 14):
I think that comment is open to debate. Most VFR travel is discretionary and if people are low on money or fear losing their jobs then they will probably reluctantly elect not to travel. I know several people who normally go to see family in Australia at Christmas, but didn't this year.

Indeed, debate is what this site is all about. I'm not suggesting that VFR travel won't be affected but I think it will be to a lesser extent that 'true' leisure travel such as the long haul hotel or adventure based vacation or the second short haul holiday.


User currently offlineSevenforty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8987 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 15):
I'm sure they will be hit hard...just not to the extent that BA will.

Does it really matter ? Who's hit hardest ? BA have the cash reserves to see it through.

They're all in it upto their eyeballs.

(I do find it amusing how it's always the same people eager to be merchants of doom whenever the letters 'BA' are mentioned.) See below.

Quoting AirNz (Reply 5):
With all due respect, isn't this exactly what some of us have been saying for some time, only to be laughed at and accused of being BA bashers by the usual BA apologists???



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 11):
As someone who is of an egalitarian disposition I think it's serves BA right.



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
BA needs to do something and fast.



There's only one set of usual suspects around here. Never mind the fact that the global economy has all but collapsed. These are unprecedented times but silly BA for concentrating on Premium. BA's market place is slightly different to other European markets. They don't enjoy the same distinct lack of competition in the leisure market for a start. Particularly on short-haul. There's no point in knocking the emphasis across the Atlantic either because that's where alot of the premium traffic IS out of the UK. Why wouldn't BA concentrate here ?


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8904 times:



Quoting Sevenforty (Reply 16):
There's only one set of usual suspects around here.

I am by neo means a BA basher. I am actually a BA fan... But as much as I am like the BA product (way better than AF and LH) and I try to travel with them as much as I can (on business and leisure), I have been faced wit one big problem with them : whenever I needed to travel somewhere and I needed my assistants to book me flights I got AF or LH as choices and not BA (live in Belgium now). I know BA can not serve every city but there is a considerable hole in Europe which ultimately will affect business traveller's choices. My colleagues travel a lot to Lagos and Accra and in Business. No one of them has ever tried BA which I find really amazing. They aren't even aware of their product. They travel to these cities with KL or LH. I think that from the marketing point of view, BA has not done enough lately. I remember in the 90s and the "World favourite airline" and the "The world's biggest offer". That has worked and everyone has heard of BA and wanted to use them. Ba was even the first to have intra European flights (CDG-FRA, CDG-MUC, CDG-ARN) with their partners TAT and DBA. It might have not worked that well but there were efforts to have a global presence.

The disposal of GBairways and BMED might have been wise from cash point of view but I think the strategic mistake was to let their competitors expand (BMI and easyJet). If you run a business, you want to make sure your customers do not try your competitors. Now people travelling on GT to AGP, PFO or TFS have been forced to go U2. They might have liked the experience and thought : well we'll use U2 to GVA, CDG and ZRH!!!



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 878 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8800 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 17):
The disposal of GBairways and BMED might have been wise from cash point of view but I think the strategic mistake was to let their competitors expand (BMI and easyJet)

Neither of these airlines were owned by BA and as such, there was no strategic mistake by BA or any cash benefit. Both GB and BMED were privately owned with franchise agreements with BA. Not really familiar with GB, but most BMED routes were not profitable and the loads were horrible. I remember days when we'd often have less than 20, sometimes even 10 passengers of some of those flights.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8758 times:



Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 18):
Neither of these airlines were owned by BA and as such, there was no strategic mistake by BA or any cash benefit.

I know that BA did not own them. What I meant is ending the franchsie agreement and not taking the option of buying them.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 18):
Not really familiar with GB, but most BMED routes were not profitable and the loads were horrible. I remember days when we'd often have less than 20, sometimes even 10 passengers of some of those flights.

GB was profitable. BMED might not have been very profitable but I guess some of their routes were giving BA some good feeder traffic. BA were given the opportunity to buy them but they preffered not to go that way and in a way let BMI expand. The strategy would have been to squeeze BMI out of LHR not to let them expand into new markets. Now VS is sharing codes with BD to THR and some other ex BMED routes and with the help of LH, BA could be facing a stiffer competition in the future. That's why I think these were strategic erros.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineHotelmode From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 460 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8734 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 19):
GB was profitable. BMED might not have been very profitable but I guess some of their routes were giving BA some good feeder traffic. BA were given the opportunity to buy them but they preffered not to go that way and in a way let BMI expand. The strategy would have been to squeeze BMI out of LHR not to let them expand into new markets. Now VS is sharing codes with BD to THR and some other ex BMED routes and with the help of LH, BA could be facing a stiffer competition in the future. That's why I think these were strategic erros.

So many misconceptions...

GB was profitable, but so are the ex GB routes that BA now operate with their own metal, no need to waste money buying GB.

The ex BMED routes still have BA codeshares on so theres no issue with feed. Additionally BA got all the slots BMED held anyway. BMI are in deep deep trouble even with LHs help and thats in a large part due to their purchase of Bmed.

BA knew far more about the financial state of BMed and the profitability or otherwise of their routes than BMI did.


User currently offlineSevenforty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8691 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 17):
I am by neo means a BA basher. I am actually a BA fan...

Fair enough !

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 17):
I have been faced wit one big problem with them : whenever I needed to travel somewhere and I needed my assistants to book me flights I got AF or LH as choices and not BA (live in Belgium now). I know BA can not serve every city but there is a considerable hole in Europe which ultimately will affect business traveller's choices.

Well I think the line has to be drawn somewhere. I mean you've got the two largest airlines in Europe on your doorstep Air Malta (almost the World), there's only so much BA can do. If you live in Belgium seems natural you're going to end up on LH or AF. For a while now British Airways' strategy has been to downsize and get the margins up. Don't forget that over the past 10 years they have achieved incredible progress to this aim, if they'd stayed the dinosaur they were they would have been gone long ago. Focusing on premium has served them well in the past, the cash reserves are testament to this. That's what will see them through this nightmare we're all in.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8496 times:



Quoting Sevenforty (Reply 16):
(I do find it amusing how it's always the same people eager to be merchants of doom whenever the letters 'BA' are mentioned.) See below.

Why is it amusing?

I have never hidden from the fact there is much I dislike about BA. If the BA legacy of twice using unethical business practices to drive a competitor out of business (Laker and then Virgin Atlantic) in Dirty Tricks volumes one and two is justified in your eyes by BA's currently large cash reserves well good for you, I find it distasteful and reeks of the last vestiges of Thatcherism.

The lip service that BA pays to what they condescendingly refer to as 'The Regions' whilst puporting to be the 'flag carrier' is nothing short of scandalous and frankly their use of the title British is almost a breach of the Trade Descriptions Act.

Every time I have made comment about BA I have stated a rationale behind my comments. Now I don't expect everyone to agree, I'm not that naive. But some of the retorts in the by those who seek to justify BA's past and present performance have included such incisive and constructive debate as "Ohh he's in the huff, maybe he got knocked back for a job by BA". Honestly is that the best that some of you can come up with?


User currently offlineVeeseeten From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8615 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 24):
I find it distasteful and reeks of the last vestiges of Thatcherism.

Oh, and there it is...thanks for clarifying your position.

Honestly, I don't understand this whole anti-any airline attitude. Yes, we all have our favorites, but in the end, they're just businesses - and if you don't hold some sort of stake in its success or failure, then endlessly voicing negative opinions in threads where such criticism isn't strictly relevant, is not only a waste of everybody's time, but also something of a de-rail. This thread is here to discuss BA's downturn in fortune, relative to the current economic climate, not private grudges against organisations.

Meanwhile, back on topic...Its been said, but I think BA will be fairly well placed to weather this - and the inference I take from all of the talk about Europes' 6-month-late position is that if BA plays its cards right, then an earlier recovery may well present some interesting opportunities.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8523 times:



Quoting Veeseeten (Reply 27):
Oh, and there it is...thanks for clarifying your position.

Didn't I say I never expected people to agree with me?  Wink

Quoting Veeseeten (Reply 27):
then endlessly voicing negative opinions in threads where such criticism isn't strictly relevant, is not only a waste of everybody's time, but also something of a de-rail. This thread is here to discuss BA's downturn in fortune, relative to the current economic climate, not private grudges against organisations

Fair point and if you look at my first posts in this thread you will find they were in relation to the thread topic in as much as I think a lot of BA's current misfortune is their previous market focus on possibly the hardest hit sector of the airline market place. The issue starts to become derailed at this point...

Quoting Sevenforty (Reply 16):
(I do find it amusing how it's always the same people eager to be merchants of doom whenever the letters 'BA' are mentioned.) See below.

Quoting AirNz (Reply 5):
With all due respect, isn't this exactly what some of us have been saying for some time, only to be laughed at and accused of being BA bashers by the usual BA apologists???



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 11):
As someone who is of an egalitarian disposition I think it's serves BA right.



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
BA needs to do something and fast.



There's only one set of usual suspects around here.

Just because there disagreement with an opinion there is no need to belittle the holder of that opinion or personalise the debate. As a result I reserve the right to defend my freedom of expression within the rules of the forum.


User currently offlineVeeseeten From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8499 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 29):
Just because there disagreement with an opinion there is no need to belittle the holder of that opinion or personalise the debate.

Bingo! While I absolutely disagree with some of the points you have put forward so far, I think that if anything is as useless as 'I hate x airline', its 'I hate you, because you hate x airline'. We all need to relax a bit - I've enjoyed this thread thus far in any case.

I think the talk of WW's tenure at BA is quite interesting - whether he'll be around in two years time or not. I'm sure I've read something on this before, but does anybody have much idea of his standing and relationship with the board?


25 Shankly : Cue picture of Vic Reeves and Bob Mortimer raising handbags "Whoooooooo" Sorry old boy but yes BA has been naughty, but is hardly a solo player. Stil
26 Hotelmode : Good, something positive. I think that premium is -currently- the hardest hit sector As I mentioned above, premium always falls off a cliff early but
27 EDICHC : Ignore...no. Disagree..yes and always with a rationale. I think any talk about WW facing the chop is a bit unfair on him. I think that much of the bl
28 B747-4U3 : I would call it "letting BMI expand". BA got the slots and BMI got the aircraft and routes. That means that to find slots for these former BMED fligh
29 Sevenforty : Where's the respect ? Imperial, BOAC, BEA....British Airways PLC was born out of mighty good stock. They might not be the envy of the world anymore b
30 VV701 : The feed from BA to BMED was, in absolute terms, significantly greater than the feed from BMED to BA. In percentage terms the BA feed to BMED was a v
31 Readytotaxi : Having started the debate I must say how much I have enjoyed the quality of the responses from people and the ping pong back and forth, really does ma
32 EDICHC : Well I'm not going to win too many popularity awards here, well not on this thread anyway! But at least you can say it generates lively debate.
33 Post contains links Hotelmode : Pdf of BAs investor day presentation here. Takes a bit of wading through, but some interesting stuff. http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...irways_In
34 B747-4U3 : " target=_blank>http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...9.pdf Thanks, that was very interesting. There seems to be a few images and diagrams of new BA
35 LHR380 : I noticed the new first seat? Is that for the 380, or the New First we have heard about.??
36 AIR MALTA : I haven't seen any new First seats... I don't think they are going to unveil the First product now... Interesting file. The Club World on A318 looks g
37 LHR380 : Page 47 I think it is on.
38 AIR MALTA : I think you meant page 74... Well if that's the First product, it would be very disappointing. I thought I've seen someone writing : forget about SQ'
39 LHR380 : That's it, got the numbers right Just wrong order. From what I have heard, it will be an evolution, not revolution of the seat. SQ style seats waste
40 AIR MALTA : What's the point of paying for First when it's almost like Club... I tried Club once and I found the experience really great. First needs to be an "o
41 JAL : The poor market condition should help them gain Anti-Trust immunity with AA and IB.
42 Candid76 : While many contributors here very much dislike the way BA have repositioned their business in recent years it's very hard to argue that focusing your
43 Hotelmode : The people who fly first do it for a number of reasons and all the regulars will have been invited to product development sessions and feedback. They
44 AIR MALTA : If you work for BA, upgrade me to Frist and I'll be happy to share my thoughts about it with you
45 Sevenforty : Flying First is like anything good in life. Once you've tried it and if you can afford it - you ain't gonna fly in businees. I've seen people positiv
46 VV701 : I have ploughed through all 256 pages of BA's Investor Day presentation - see link provided by Hotelmode in Reply 39. Thank you. What I found to be ne
47 G-CIVP : One thing wrong in the Investor Presentation (unless it has changed) is Tokyo is going to one flight a day this summer and winter '09.
48 Viscount724 : Every airline operating international services from their country is a "flag carrier" of that country. Where do you see the British government referr
49 AIR MALTA : JL is adding a 2nd daily to NRT. Why aren't BA and JL sharing codes on that route and on LHR-KIX?
50 Birdseed : As has been said, it should also be the market which recovers most quickly. Twelve to eighteen months ago it was quite the thing to go on about expan
51 BALHRWWCC : This sounds about right. Remember BACF lost two Bae146's when Flightline went under. Also G-BXAR that landed heavy and suffered landing gear collapse
52 B747-4U3 : I've actually found the opposite to be true. The First cabin is a very private cabin, however I've found the seats to be lacking in privacy. The prob
53 B747-4U3 : Forgot to mention this in my previous post. If that is the case, then the seat pictured in the Investor Report is almost certainly the new First seat.
54 LHR380 : If anything, if BA were to put in SQ style First seats, it would mean a decrease in the number of F seats, and especially at these times, a decrease
55 EDICHC : Re your remarks regarding "hard working people" does that include those made redundant by BA in 'the regions' over the last 20 years of retraction in
56 BALHRWWCC : I think AF/KL will cope slightly better but I think the next few months at LH are going to be interesting. LH have bought or taken large stakes in ai
57 EDICHC : Have you tried boarding a BA flight in Wales or NI lately, or a BA flight from 'the regions' to anywhere other than LON? Out of all of those take awa
58 LHR380 : Does any carrier fly from Wales to London???? Please tell me of a company that would be willing to operate flights to destinations that do not make t
59 VV701 : Lip service? Of course there is BAMC (British Airways Maintenance Cardiff) where all heavy maintenance on BA's fleets of 763s, 772s and 744s, the lat
60 LHR380 : I forgot about that, thanks for mentioning it.
61 EDICHC : Ok then they should call themselves plc Airways or Shareholder Airways then as that is who they are primarily representing. Funnily enough other carr
62 LHR380 : Looking at Cardiff airport, the only major airline, Major Full fare airline I might add that flies from there is KLM, now why is that,? LH of course w
63 David_itl : Or BA have encouraged the premium flyer to route via LHR instead whilst putting a perceived lesser aircraft with fewer frequencies on from the region
64 B747-4U3 : London is a larger market than the regions, and is also a major hub. Therefore London can support larger aircraft and more frequencies. What do you e
65 Sevenforty : I have to admire your determination. I don't blame BA for doing what they did to VS. I've said it before I'll say it again. What VS did was not compe
66 Theginge : Ok, so BA fly from the regions to their hub at LHR. Have you ever tried getting a flight on KLM, LH, EK, AF to anywhere other than their main hubs?!?
67 EDICHC : Well this is the same free enterprise arguement that BA apologists use for withdrawing from 'the regions'. As for one carrier being better than two,
68 Birdseed : Well don't you think that's quite a sensible thing for a business to do - concentrate on it's core source of income? The "lesser aircraft" you refer
69 EDICHC : Ohh come on now! NZ manages to operate successfully international services from 5 cities within NZ despite only having one major hub AKL. Now New Zea
70 LHR380 : Come on, your comparing New Zealand to the UK, that's just funny. NZ does not have the likes of FR EZY and BE to competewith. You go on to say again
71 Viscount724 : LH's international services are heavily concentrated at their FRA and MUC hubs. There are a few flights from other major cities but I would guess tha
72 Alasdair1982 : So, on the subject of BA and VS duplicating routes from LHR. Although in the current economic climate, new routes are unlikely to be in anyones though
73 EDICHC : Hmm you call the sale of BA Connect commitment? Look at the context of the comaprison, the suggestion was made that the UK was too small to sustain a
74 LHR380 : Well, you seem to think BA is the big bad wolf, hates the UK, and only likes people in the South, oh, and should not be called British Airways, so th
75 Alasdair1982 : What long haul destinations are served by LH from both those cities? I know SFO has a service from both FRA and MUC, where else?
76 EDICHC : A bit more graphic than I would put it, but glad to see the message is getting there.
77 VV701 : The simple economics of commercial aviation determines that profitable routes are operated by legacy-type airlines out of an airline's hub or hubs. S
78 Post contains images EDICHC : Well not for the next 2 years they're not.   So why 3 hubs so close together? BA must be the only large carrier to operate out of 3 hubs in the one
79 Sevenforty : I think you've got some sort of vendetta against BA because I can't believe that someone as obviously intelligent as you fails to recognise why BA ar
80 EDICHC : Perhaps you see it as a vendetta. but read what I am saying. BA is shooting itself in the foot by eroding customer loyalty anywhere more than 2 hours
81 LHR27C : EDICHC Could you answer me one question please, can you name a full fare airline that operates a route from the UK regions to an airport that isn't it
82 Rutankrd : Examples of UK Regional services by the other legacies NOT to their main hubs Lufthansa Manchester- Dusseldorf Birmingham -Dusseldorf Newcastle- Dusse
83 LHR27C : I said using the size of equipment BA have. Those are all operated using regional aircraft, none of them would be economically viable on a larger air
84 EDICHC : Thanks...saved me a bit of typing there! So tell me what does BA operate out of LCY??? Oh and of course we should not forget that BA sold off a chunk
85 Rutankrd : LHR27C Dusseldorf services employ aircraft such as B735 and right up to A320 regularly. Manchester- Basel uses a 100 seat RJ100 not exactly small. And
86 EDICHC : And as I asked before ... I do believe that may be a very similar a/c type?
87 Birdseed : Well then if what you say is true, BA's domestic/shuttle services should be pretty empty, but they're not. This notion that BA should re-brand itself
88 Rutankrd : EDCHC. Thats right you know they use the good ones that BA sold to them and now regret coz they don't have enough to operate the LCY services effectiv
89 EDICHC : And that is strarting to show the condescending attitude I referred to earier in the thread. MAN,EDI,GLA,NCL are hardly 'grass strips' they are fully
90 VV701 : And contrary to the assertion that is totally wrong. This idea is so unimportant to "the vast majority of the UK population" that very few of them ha
91 Sevenforty : Well you did bring VS into the argument. You've got some strange ideas about BA and sound business practice. But hey happy flying on all those airlin
92 LHR27C : Scheduled, throughout summer 2009: BHX-DUS: CRJ MAN-DUS: CRJ NCL-DUS: CRJ Whether they decide to operationally upgrade that once or twice to a 735 or
93 Scrappy27 : "In addition VS does not brand itself as a national airline" Correct me if I'm wrong but does Virgins wingtips not bear the union flag?? Is the scarl
94 Birdseed : OK, I do of course realise that they are not grass strips. I was not suggesting they are. I was being facetious (not condescending). It would of cour
95 GDB : Yes there are almost compulsive 'BA bashers' here, (and I will and have 'bashed' them when I think they've really screwed up), for various reasons. So
96 Rutankrd : LH27c Can't dispute the Manchester year on year fall -Its correct i am afraid and a significant proportion of that fall can be attributed directly som
97 EDICHC : How do you know what grounds I have? Despite my current location I still travel back to EDI fairly frequently and remain in contact with many friends
98 Sevenforty : Ok, put your money where your mouth is and back it up. Which other airport would you like BA to have a 'major hub' and to where do you think there is
99 VV701 : Thanks for raising this. Again clearly you are talking emotionally and not from a position of fact or knowledge. Let's just look at those two LH hubs
100 TristarSteve : I've been reading this without jumping in, but now have something to say BA is a PLC, not a national anything. The first rule of a PLC is to make mone
101 AirNZ : Once again, you are quoting me wrongly and as part of the usual BA apologist generalisation to anyone who disagrees. With regard to your "distinct la
102 David_itl : Can we say the airport that BA paid multimillions towards building a terminal dedicated to their services? As for services, perhaps we might try with
103 B747-4U3 : Thank you, you've just proven what I have said. Anecdotal evidence from you and your friends and acquaintances is not the same as "most of the popula
104 G-CIVP : I haven't got the inclination to read the entire thread end to end but all airlines (in context the big players, e.g. Singapore, Cathay, American Airl
105 Viscount724 : The population of Germany is 1/3 larger than the UK. The MUC region is also one of the most prosperous parts of Germany and generates a lot of O&D tr
106 Theginge : This thread has gone miles off track from the original topic about 2 years of losses! Anything about BA always seems to turn in to a 'London Airways'
107 HB-IWC : This thread has been characterized by extensive personal exchanges and have veered way off topic. Thread archived.
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