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Delta Appears To Reject Initial 787-8 Deliveries  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24799 posts, RR: 46
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 21803 times:

Rumors all these months appear to be playing out.

Good opportunity for others looking for early deliviers.

Quote:
Delta Appears To Reject Initial 787-8 Deliveries
Mar 04 , 2009

Delta appears to have renounced its position as the North American launch customer for Boeing’s 787-8 widebody, according to the carrier’s latest regulatory filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

The Atlanta-based carrier, which inherited a firm order for 18 787-8s when it acquired Northwest Airlines, has dropped the firm orders from its latest report, which was filed late March 2. Instead, the airline in a footnote said the 18 aircraft have been excluded from its firm order obligations because “[t]he Boeing Company has informed us that Boeing will be unable to meet the contractual delivery schedule for these aircraft.”

Delta has been expected to revise, if not cancel, its 787 order since the carrier was favoring Boeing’s 777 over the all-new widebody. This expectation was heightened in December when the airline’s Executive VP for Revenue Planning and Network Management during Delta’s investor day conference said the airline’s 777s could be the 747-400 replacement whichNorthwest had intended when the Eagan, Minn.-based carrier first ordered the 787s.

Full story (subscription required)
http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...+Reject+Initial+787%2d8+Deliveries


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 21809 times:
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I see more A332s coming

User currently offlineNwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21611 times:

787's as a 747 replacement? I don't think so....


Long live the Red Tail! | WMU Flight Science major
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21580 times:

That's what they were intended for... to give the carrier a reasonable option to operate where they were previously forced to fly 747s and an A330 couldn't handle it.

They realized that they didn't need much more than the A330-300 on most routes, and the 787-8 would give them a family to grow into if required.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9288 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21476 times:



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 1):
I see more A332s coming

I dont unless AB can get extra range out of the 332 which is still unlikely unless DL goes GE or RR because they have the highest thrust class for the PW family. They do not need a plane that cant make LAX-NRT with out leaving cargo. They need something smaller than the 744 with better range than the 332. Hello 777s. At this point DL doesn't need any 332s. 777s are the plane they need. later in life 2013 range(funny they have 787 options for said time) they will need something to start to replace older 767s. This is where the 787 comes in. DL right now will look to build on its 777 fleet. The most I see DL adding 332 wise is 5 tops. Now if DL/AB work out a deal to get more range out of the 332 then maybe DL will go with a sub-fleet with GE or RRs. Again I don't see this happening though.



yep.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21356 times:

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind this. I know DL likes their 777 but do they really need more aircraft with the 777LR's range? I ask simply because wouldn't the 787-8 offer enough range to handle the vast majority of long range routes that DL wants to operate with a favorable load. I can understand not ordering them, but not taking something that has been ordered just doesn't make sense to me, perhaps someone can explain it better.


One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21357 times:



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 1):
I see more A332s coming

Very doubtful. The initial 787's missing their advertised payload/range envelope are still either better or on par with the A330-200. If the new DL wanted this size/range of aircraft, they'd just stay with the plane they already have on the way. Afterall, ordering A332's now would mean another 18-24 month wait. They can get their 787's sooner than that.  crossfingers 

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
That's what they were intended for... to give the carrier a reasonable option to operate where they were previously forced to fly 747s and an A330 couldn't handle it.

They realized that they didn't need much more than the A330-300 on most routes, and the 787-8 would give them a family to grow into if required.

 checkmark 

NW ordered the 787-8 to operate longer, thinner routes where the 747-400 was too much, and even the A330 was a little larger/pushing it's limits.

Now, of course, the picture is different. We now have the combined weight of Delta and Northwest, and routes/fleet utilization is being adjusted. The new DL seems to want a larger aircraft for the time-being, i.e. the 777. As has been publically mentioned by DL themselves, they are still very interested in the 787, but now more as a long-term 767 replacement. However, that is not a pressing need. So if they can swap 787's for 777-200LRs/-300ERs now, get them in the fleet and slowly retire the 747 fleet, that is their best financial option. Then, down the road, come back to the 787 when the 767's start getting ready to retire.


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5309 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21316 times:



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 6):
So if they can swap 787's for 777-200LRs/-300ERs now, get them in the fleet and slowly retire the 747 fleet, that is their best financial option. Then, down the road, come back to the 787 when the 767's start getting ready to retire.

I agree with many previous posters who have theorized that we will shortly see a swap of the 787-8 orders for some mix of 777-300ERs now and 787-9s down the road.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16812 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21292 times:

Are the delivery slots married to the engine choice (RR), if not that would certainly open up the field a bit.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9288 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21224 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):

Are the delivery slots married to the engine choice (RR), if not that would certainly open up the field a bit.

I wouldn't think so but I could be wrong. If I had to bet I'd say ANA will take at least most of them. CO would be smart to stay away from them.  Wink



yep.
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2084 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21223 times:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 6):
Now, of course, the picture is different. We now have the combined weight of Delta and Northwest, and routes/fleet utilization is being adjusted. The new DL seems to want a larger aircraft for the time-being, i.e. the 777. As has been publically mentioned by DL themselves, they are still very interested in the 787, but now more as a long-term 767 replacement. However, that is not a pressing need. So if they can swap 787's for 777-200LRs/-300ERs now, get them in the fleet and slowly retire the 747 fleet, that is their best financial option. Then, down the road, come back to the 787 when the 767's start getting ready to retire.

   Very insightful. DL still likes the 787 but is not tremendously impressed with the first batch of 787-800's.

[Edited 2009-03-03 18:33:04]

User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21197 times:

Well this is ashame to read but I can understand that the 787's are no longer needed. Still wouldve been nice to see one in DL/NW colors.


Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 879 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21174 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
I wouldn't think so but I could be wrong. If I had to bet I'd say ANA will take at least most of them. CO would be smart to stay away from them.  

I would expect that other than a few specific models (like #2 that NW was supposed to get), the slots are going to get used to help reduce delays further down the line, unless they can get someone to pay a not so discounted price.

cheers.


User currently offlinePlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21095 times:

Honestly, I cannot imagine how this is not at least a mid-sized PR disaster for Boeing.

Whether it is DL/NW's new route structure, the economy, the performance shortfall of the early 787s or the endless delays, something does not add up here. Was the 787 not supposed to usher in a New Age Of Aviation? Was it not supposed to make the hub-spoke model itself obsolete, and with it every plane larger or with a shorter range than the Dreamliner?

And now the North America launch customer is possibly CANCELLING their 787 order altogether, which indicates that they might opt for a previous-generation plane such as the A330 or 777 instead.

Seriously, something sounds weird, to say the least. Let's just hope that the delivery delays or the economy are the real reason behind DL dropping the 787.



Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21103 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
Are the delivery slots married to the engine choice (RR), if not that would certainly open up the field a bit.

Well, they certainly have a contract with RR!

This is one thing that, IMO, will dictate exactly how this occurs on paper. There are several options DL can try and do, but how easy each one is would be open to debate:


1) 'Defer' their 787-8 deliveries. This would free up cash in the form of upcoming payments to Boeing, which they can then use as a downpayment for more 777's (be they -200LR's or -300ER's). Boeing would have to agree, of course, as it would involve Boeing negotiating with another airline to take up these frames, some already built (mostly) to NW/DL's specs. This would be easy for DL, but rather tricky for Boeing, as the price for these nearly-built frames would assumedly be very discounted.

2) Cancel all or part of the 787 order, and convert it to 777's. The option that is usually preferrable for both parties, but the frames already being built makes this tricky. Once again, Boeing is stuck looking for a buyer of these early aircraft.

3) Sell the 787's currently in the pipeline to a lessor, and use the cash for 777's. DL has done this before with some 738's when DL decided they could no longer afford them. IIRC, CIT and Babcock & Brown purchased most of them. Boeing pretty much stays out of the picture, and DL gets immediate cash for however many frames they sell. But is there a lessor out there willing to do this?


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineObserver From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21055 times:



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 6):

Very doubtful. The initial 787's missing their advertised payload/range envelope are still either better or on par with the A330-200. If the new DL wanted this size/range of aircraft, they'd just stay with the plane they already have on the way. Afterall, ordering A332's now would mean another 18-24 month wait. They can get their 787's sooner than that. crossfingers

Some lessors have A330s for delivery in 2010 that DL could lease if it wanted. Some of these A330-200s probably could be revised for the A330-200HWG (or whatever Airbus is calling it this week), which have a range of 7200nm. This is more than the early 788s, which by some estimates because of over-weight and over-fuel burn have a range of 6800nm. Plus the A330HGW carries more people (as if that's an issue right now in today's economy) and more cargo(?).


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9288 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20928 times:



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 11):
Well this is ashame to read but I can understand that the 787's are no longer needed.

I disagree. IMHO the 787 is a perfect plane to try new routes out of DTW/MSP arcoss the Atlantic. Well we will se it a few years later now.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 11):
Still wouldve been nice to see one in DL/NW colors.

i agree.  Sad

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 14):
And now the North America launch customer is possibly CANCELLING their 787 order altogether, which indicates that they might opt for a previous-generation plane such as the A330 or 777 instead.

becuase they don't need them. Why should they order them.

Quoting Observer (Reply 16):
Some lessors have A330s for delivery in 2010 that DL could lease if it wanted. Some of these A330-200s probably could be revised for the A330-200HWG (or whatever Airbus is calling it this week), which have a range of 7200nm. This is more than the early 788s, which by some estimates because of over-weight and over-fuel burn have a range of 6800nm. Plus the A330HGW carries more people (as if that's an issue right now in today's economy) and more cargo(?).

I really hate to keep shooting this one down but DL should not and i hope will not waste money on an airplane that would be next to usless. They have all the 332s and 333s they need. Unless DL goes with a new engine ordering a 332ER would be again usless due to PW not having a higher thrust option like GE and RR do. A sub fleet of 4-5 aircraft is pointless. But more 77Ls trade 77E routes with 77Ls and the 77E can do anything the 332 can but better.



yep.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30542 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20820 times:
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Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 5):
I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind this. I know DL likes their 777 but do they really need more aircraft with the 777LR's range?

The 777-200LR is not just attractive for it's range, but for the ability to fly a very high payload the same distance a 777-200ER can only fly a medium-sized payload.

And the article reports that DL is still holding on to both their order and their options, they just want either a different model (787-9) or a later development of the 787-8 and they're willing to wait for either - likely because they now have plenty of options with their current fleet.

[Edited 2009-03-03 19:32:44]

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20778 times:

You all are also forgetting the possibility of a significant number of used 772ERs coming on the market in the near future. Used 772ERs still have very favorable economics and some of the 787s will replace them.

For now, however, there is not a great need for a bunch of new airplanes for any airline. Some will continue to take their 787s and in so doing retire some earlier generation aircraft like the 777 or 330 both of which will do what DL needs to do much less expensively on an overall basis. The 787 is an expensive airplane because of being new technology and the acquisition costs for the 788 are particularly high.

Don't underestimate that DL is using the 787 situation to bargain for even better products and rates from both A and B. The world's largest airline is a customer any business wants to have -and keep.


User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20715 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
You all are also forgetting the possibility of a significant number of used 772ERs coming on the market in the near future.

WT, have you heard any possibility of DL acquiring a few of SQ's soon-to-be retired 772ER's?

These are still relatively new aircraft with a great service and maintenance record. After getting re-rated to a new MTOW (SQ's are paper de-rated), they could easily serve DL's needs. . .

Just a thought.

Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20594 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 4):
They do not need a plane that cant make LAX-NRT with out leaving cargo.

Where are you getting your information that this is the case?

As for the 787, it's not entirely unexpected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL eventually opt solely for the 789.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20482 times:

Reading the statements, I think many are reading them wrong. Just my opinion based on what the annual report fleet page is supposed to reflect. i made this point in the 787 thread, but the table is intended to indicate when aircraft are to be put into service and when others are to be taken out, on a forward looking basis.

With the up in the air schedule of the 788, DL can't put that order in the table anymore. It would be a guess. The table is not for guessing. When orders are in negotiations, they don't go in the table. The 788 order is now back in negotiations.

As for why they will take them? DL has a very large 767 fleet, many of them very old, and even if the early 788 is not an 8000nm plane when delivered, it is more than ample as a replacement for older 767s flying international routes. It shares LDs with 777s and 747s and A330s, it is more efficient, etc. Unless DL has no money, replacing some 767s with 787s will be a positive financial move. Same is true about replacing 747s with 77Ws.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20466 times:

Looks like more 772LR orders for DL are on the way...


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20360 times:



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
Looks like more 772LR orders for DL are on the way...

No doubt about that in my mind. And 77Ws. The 747 days are numbered, and the 787 future will be for medium haul and TATL for a while, with 777s being devoted to long haul.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9288 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20332 times:



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):
WT, have you heard any possibility of DL acquiring a few of SQ's soon-to-be retired 772ER's?

I do believe they have been looked at before. IIRC. I'm sure it could happen but i wouldn't hold my breath

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):
These are still relatively new aircraft with a great service and maintenance record. After getting re-rated to a new MTOW (SQ's are paper de-rated), they could easily serve DL's needs. . .

the RR Trent 884s will have to be upgraded to 895s.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 20):
As for the 787, it's not entirely unexpected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL eventually opt solely for the 789.

i agree

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
Looks like more 772LR orders for DL are on the way...

i agree

Quoting OA412 (Reply 20):
Where are you getting your information that this is the case?

them having a lowwer MTOW and it being a long flight for the 332 anyways.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Reading the statements, I think many are reading them wrong. Just my opinion based on what the annual report fleet page is supposed to reflect. i made this point in the 787 thread, but the table is intended to indicate when aircraft are to be put into service and when others are to be taken out, on a forward looking basis.

I do agree. The fat ladie hasn't sang her song yet but IMO she is getting warmed up



yep.
25 SNCntry32 : They were going to be for TPAC missions out of MSP and DTW... Not TATL...
26 LAXDESI : A330HGW does carry about 10 more Y passengers if B788 is configured with 8-abreast in Y for a 2 class layout. B788 will carry about 15 more Y passeng
27 DeltaL1011man : I know this. I'm saying the first 18 which IIRC wouldn't be able to do DTW/MSP-Asia flights could be used for TATL flight. Then after the first 18 th
28 Centrair : Noooooo! I have been crossing my fingers that DL/NW would restructure DTW-NGO to a 787 or at least add some carrier would launch NGO-USA with a 787. N
29 JohnClipper : My 2 cents...DL drops the early 787 orders, gets more 777s, orders 787s once program is on track, delivered and in service. They don't want to be the
30 DeltaL1011man : DL could do it with a 763 from LAX or SEA.
31 SuseJ772 : This is why I think you are one of the smartest and well balanced people on this forum. Thanks for the alternative and insightful perspective.
32 Ikramerica : I have followed this table for years on the CO website (for CO's fleet, obviously) and that is how it works. The table is very specific. It tells wha
33 Khobar : Has Boeing actually said the 787 will miss its envelope, or are you going on the "preliminary" data in the .pdf brochure?
34 NorthstarBoy : Interesting move on DL's part. Maybe a way to get around the fencing system and open the 787 to it's own pilots? As i understand it, the 787 is curren
35 DL Widget Head : Interesting comspiracy theory but not at all a part of DL's agenda. DL is not now nor in the furure planning to screw the NW pilots in any way. Any f
36 Columba : Nooooooo, please don´t t a 747 can only be replaced with a 747
37 Post contains links Astuteman : Done already...... See this thread. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4331446/ And this article http://www.airbus.com/
38 Rheinwaldner : Good and balanced summary! Having the combined fleets operating and feeding the hubs one would assume that more capacity is required on the long rang
39 Jfk777 : 777 as 744 replacements.
40 Avek00 : It depends. The 777 has a high resale value, but at the same time, most any used 777ERs available on the secondhand market are high-cycle aircraft, w
41 Airbazar : For some airlines maybe, but DL has no interest in getting rid of the hub and spoke system. It's nearly impossible to fly DL long-haul/medium-haul wi
42 Alitalia744 : And so the pieces fall into place. My crystal ball says we should expect a PR soon on this, including conversion of those initial 18 birds to the 777L
43 Jetlanta : Such a tease you are...
44 WorldTraveler : DL is not interested in getting 787s at this point to replace 767s. They have more than enough 767/330 size aircraft for the next 5-10 years so some
45 Bobnwa : Can you show us figures that prove your contention that a NW A332 cannot make LAX-NRT without leaving cargo? I think not.
46 EBJ1248650 : A good point, but won't Delta end up paying more for the 787 if they order them later on? It makes sense, instead, to keep the airplanes that are on
47 AirNz : Could you perhaps clarify exactly what position you are taking regarding this matter, as it certainly seems to be constant contradictions. You repeat
48 KEESJE : NWA would get some of the innitial machines, the 3th & 4th that are on the production line. Thsoe machines have had the fasteners issue, wingbox mods,
49 Stitch : As they have not actually canceled their order, but only deferred deliveries, their existing contractual price remains in effect. They have also not
50 Burnsie28 : They were not to replace the 744, they were there to compliment and fly thinner, longer routes from the US to Asia, the Middle East and Europe. If th
51 DL747400 : Keep your shirts on people. No need to panic. Talks with Boeing are continuing, but the 787's future at DL will be announced shortly. When these detai
52 WA707atMSP : I'm very skeptical NW / DL will do ANYTHING to DTW-NGO-MNL. This route is perfectly balanced - the DTW-NGO leg has a lot of WBC demand, but MNL traff
53 Ikramerica : That's a good point. The 787 is much less expensive to buy and operate than is a 77L. Or will be, when it eventually enters service.
54 727forever : There is language in place in the Arbitrated agreement that would prevent this. If another aircraft is ordered as a replacement for a type on one sid
55 Deltal1011man : an then they have to pick a GE or RR engine. Unless something has changed PW doesn't have this thrust class. 8 a/c 16 engines. Wouldn't call that a s
56 CompensateMe : Anything? It's being reduced to 5x weekly . But it's still a solid candidate for a downgrade to the 777. Worth mentioning that NW's NGO service has o
57 Par13del : The rest of your post did not mention if the contract with RR for engines would have any effect on their attempting to obtain other a/c say the B-777
58 OA412 : I would also be interested in seeing where exactly, if anywhere, you're getting your figures from.
59 Pilotboi : To me, nothing's official until it comes out of Delta's or Boeing's mouth (it'll probably come out of both at once). That talk will come soon.
60 Post contains links Scbriml : Some additional info from James Wallace: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/aerospace/archives/163345.asp He points out that That would seem to scuppe
61 WA707atMSP : PA never served NGO. Their only Japanese destinations were Tokyo and Osaka at the time of the UA transfer.
62 Khobar : Because the options have a definite date attached to them that Boeing has not yet told them is impossible to meet? Just a guess.
63 Stitch : Still, that's only about 5% of the total current orderbook. Even if Boeing lost half their orderbook over the next two or three years, they would sti
64 RJ111 : The PW powered A332 has effectively the same Range/Payload chart as the other 2 engines, or at least, it's available to those standards, and to a com
65 DeltaL1011man : with them not having full MTOW they can only go about 12-12.5 hours without leaving cargo. LAX-NRT would be close. It may make it full if the headwin
66 Ikramerica : How so? It clearly says in the footnote that that is why they removed them. Options are different. Right now, DL has the right to exercise their opti
67 Bobnwa : You still haven't given any figures that prove your point. Also you are forgetting that the LAX-NRT cargo market is basically an eastbound market whi
68 FlyASAGuy2005 : It seems to me that in the not so distant past, we were bubbling about this exact same subject when the DL boss (or someone up there, I don't remember
69 Stitch : DL should have put down deposits for all 18 production slots. They also should have been making progress payments on at least ZA003 and ZA004 since t
70 Njdevilsin03 : Does this now make CO the north american launch partner?
71 WorldTraveler : DL has other aircraft that are powered by Rolls and its family of engines.
72 DocLightning : I think so... And only CO and AA are buying them now. So sad, I thought it would look great in DL colors. Well, they'll need it eventually. The 767's
73 Planefxr : [quote=WorldTraveler,reply=71]DL has other aircraft that are powered by Rolls and its family of engines.[/quote Other than it's limited partnership wi
74 Scbriml : DL's 777-200ERs are powered by RR Trents. They have one on each wing if I'm not mistaken!
75 Post contains images Planefxr : You are correct they are Trent 892's that have been uprgraded to 895's. My post was in reference to..... and and Thanks, but based on your post you c
76 Ikramerica : What powers the Comair CRJs?
77 Post contains links SpruceMoose : CF34s, I think. http://www.crj.bombardier.com/CRJ/en...ifications.jsp?langId=en&crjId=200 -SpruceMoose [edit to remove hyphen in CF34 and to give a m
78 Planefxr : I believe CF34's power CRJ's as well as E-Jets.[Edited 2009-03-05 13:19:04]
79 WorldTraveler : There is clearly some value to RR from DL's IAE fleet of engines which just might be growing based on M90 additions. Also, it is possible that DL coul
80 Planefxr : A breakdown of 787 orders shows nearly a 2 to 1 preference for the GE over the RR. Having a pylon that will accept both engines is brilliant for fleet
81 DeltaL1011man : No nothing that is prue RR. If you want to call IAE RR(which its not) then ok but you would be wrong. Your not. Like I said DL has 16 pure RRs in the
82 Astuteman : These days it should be very straightforward for an airline like DL to load the "risk" attendant wilt a small sub-fleet back onto the engine manufact
83 Trex8 : I thought the notion of a quick engine type change on the 787 went out the window a few years ago already and its a pylon and engine change now, but
84 Stitch : I believe it now takes about a week as opposed to the original day.
85 Planefxr : Ok, I thought it was the same pylon. Yes, this would still be better but not as cost effective as if both engines could be mated to the existing pylo
86 Klkla : I could be wrong, but aren't the ex-TWA ex-AA 757-200ER's RR powered as well?
87 Planefxr : Actually they are PW powered, this fundamentally why AA was interested in getting them out of their fleet and DL was interested in adding them. On a
88 Ikramerica : I was under the impression that it wasn't a full pylon change, but that the "plug and play" swap was what went out the window, because now the pylon
89 Planefxr : Actually they don't need to be the same shape, size and weight. Most Boeings offer different engine choices for their fleet types, none of which have
90 XT6Wagon : Would they make progress payments on planes that are going to be used for flight test, then refurbished after? Seems like both sides would want to ke
91 Ikramerica : Yes they would have to be the same in order to work off the same pylon. Or very close to the same. Or at least, they would have to be the same weight
92 Stitch : Well Boeing and DL might have negotiated different terms since the planes will not be delivered immediately upon completion.
93 Trex8 : I'm not sure its an actual pylon change so much as the whole pylon must come off and go back on for this change over.
94 Ikramerica : True, but it's not just the test airframes we are talking about here, but there are other DL/NW frames in various stages of construction that would b
95 FlyASAGuy2005 : Aww, I see. I suspected some monies would have to be on the books but I didn't know exactly how it all worked. This basically means that they will ha
96 Stitch : In theory, possibly. In reality, no. Boeing will work with DL to apply any payments to other Boeing models DL may be interested in or they will refun
97 Post contains links NWA757300 : Here is a further development... "Also on Tuesday, Delta Air Lines (DAL.N) President Edward Bastian reaffirmed that the carrier has firm orders for 18
98 FlyASAGuy2005 : Saw that and found it quite interesting...LOL I'm sure they most of the uproar was caused by us. I did, however, ask the above...
99 Mayor : I wonder why DL's legal department had them remove the firm orders from the 10-K filing?
100 Ikramerica : They didn't remove them from the filing. They MOVED them from a table to a footnote, which is not anything to get worked up about. The table is for c
101 WorldTraveler : That is true but given that DL execs have said they aren't blown away either with the economics of the 788 or the performnance of early 787s, it will
102 PGNCS : You know, WT, I actually agree with your conclusions, but am a bit unsure of your premises. I don't know what penalties are in the contract NW negoti
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